because u don't know what the hell is going on there.... every one here talk as if he lived 5 years in Saudi Arabia ... but in realty no one cared about Saudi Arabia until 9/11.
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Istanbul burning, protestors angry at Government...
- Thread starter SnakeXs
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because u don't know what the hell is going on there.... every one here talk as if he lived 5 years in Saudi Arabia ... but in realty no one cared about Saudi Arabia until 9/11.
initial situation/protests in gezi park:
completely normal police reaction, one of hundreds.
it's not exactly a political protest either. yes, the political party is subject to criticism, obviously. but power-abusing policeman seem to be the primary cause.
You are telling me the protesters share no blame? Obviously the police are known to overreact since that's how they operate - a show of force and all that nonsense.
But if there was not such a heavy element of communists involved, I would probably be more inclined to share your view. Oh and you can add the anarchists, football hooligans and others to the mix. This isn't a Turkish spring for democracy, a lot of it is just provocation by the far left.
You argue against women driving. Has little to do with "having lived there". Statistically, younger women are sager drivers than younger men because "rarr, teenage testosterone".
And yeah, the police brutality really made this explode. Wtf???
You are telling me the protesters share no blame? Obviously the police are known to overreact since that's how they operate - a show of force and all that nonsense.
But if there was not such a heavy element of communists involved, I would probably be more inclined to share your view. Oh and you can add the anarchists, football hooligans and others to the mix. This isn't a Turkish spring for democracy, a lot of it is just provocation by the far left.
The communists are peacefully protesting. They're sharing ideas they're not inciting revolution. Communism has been brutally suppressed in Turkey for a long time now.
My own father was thrown in prison for scribbling a bit of communist graffiti during the last coup. They have arrested and detained legions of TKP (Turkish Communist Party) officials and supporters over the years.
Mind you, this is coming form a hardcore classical liberal. Any of the lefty members on this forum can attest to that. I don't like communism at all but you can't blame the communists for anything here. This protest is the AKP's making, not the TKP.
There are some elements of hooliganism occurring but it's really just a minority, plus you can't really ignore the reports that police are dressing as civilians to destroy property and make the protest appear more extreme so they can move in.
Mavromatis
Member
Assuming you are a muslim all the required knowledge is in one book and your mind, the rest is nafila. Reading that book might help you clearing your mind. Islam doesn't have a church organizing everyone for this reason.
You are telling me the protesters share no blame? Obviously the police are known to overreact since that's how they operate - a show of force and all that nonsense.
But if there was not such a heavy element of communists involved, I would probably be more inclined to share your view. Oh and you can add the anarchists, football hooligans and others to the mix. This isn't a Turkish spring for democracy, a lot of it is just provocation by the far left.
You know that your word "communist" doesn't carry the same meaning all over the world? I can see that you mean public enemies by your word but imagine me saying this:
Now this would be racist.
Now this is idiotic.
Now this is what we would have heard during 90's.
You can add anybody, any group to the event as long as they are citizens of Turkey. And being communist, ginger, islamist wouldn't revoke your citizenship nor your constitutional rights.
Also if you really imagine that there is a chance that communism will take Turkey you either never even visited Turkey or just trolling us. I can say with confidence that they are no longer after our bodily fluids.
jakonovski
Member
You are telling me the protesters share no blame? Obviously the police are known to overreact since that's how they operate - a show of force and all that nonsense.
But if there was not such a heavy element of communists involved, I would probably be more inclined to share your view. Oh and you can add the anarchists, football hooligans and others to the mix. This isn't a Turkish spring for democracy, a lot of it is just provocation by the far left.
Have you read the thread? It's full of examples of police acting out of malice.
Also, nice communism fobia. OMG they have red flags, shoot CS canisters at their heads!
Sharing ideas like four months ago when the communists suicide bombed the US Embassy in Ankara - killing people?
You might be correct and perhaps the communists are only trying to protest peacefully this time - though their entire ideology leans towards oppression and stagnation of society.
jakonovski
Member
Collective guilt by association? I guess I'd be fair game too, having sympathies for some modern day communist movements.
Facism
Member
Sharing ideas like four months ago when the communists suicide bombed the US Embassy in Ankara - killing people?
You might be correct and perhaps the communists are only trying to protest peacefully this time - though their entire ideology leans towards oppression and stagnation of society.
stop.
Mavromatis
Member
Sharing ideas like four months ago when the communists suicide bombed the US Embassy in Ankara - killing people?
You might be correct and perhaps the communists are only trying to protest peacefully this time - though their entire ideology leans towards oppression and stagnation of society.
I wouldn't blame "communism" for that, you could try a big example like Stalin and so. Anyway by that association you can blame the islamists for Sivas Massacre where they burned an hotel full of people, or Armenians for ASALA's bombings, assasinations, or many other groups with many other terrorist events.
jakonovski
Member
Indeed, I don't think there's any political movement that hasn't seen its share of extremists. Which is why it's important to listen to the thoughts of other people and not stick labels on them.
Sharing ideas like four months ago when the communists suicide bombed the US Embassy in Ankara - killing people?
You might be correct and perhaps the communists are only trying to protest peacefully this time - though their entire ideology leans towards oppression and stagnation of society.
Like I said, I don't like communism at all. But they are allowed to voice their ideas and policies and the test of it is the ballot box.
Still there is a world of difference between the Turkish Communist Party...whom have a large presence at these protests, and the Revolutionary People's Liberation Party.
That would be like blaming the Conservative party in the UK for the actions of the English Defence League or the British National Party.
Can you enlighten us oh wise sage? What the hell is about to go down when women start driving in Saudi Arabia?
edit: and for the record, I've cared about Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Middle East since I read about the embassy bombings when I was 7, I've been studying and following this shit for the past 15 years.
You are telling me the protesters share no blame? Obviously the police are known to overreact since that's how they operate - a show of force and all that nonsense.
But if there was not such a heavy element of communists involved, I would probably be more inclined to share your view. Oh and you can add the anarchists, football hooligans and others to the mix. This isn't a Turkish spring for democracy, a lot of it is just provocation by the far left.
refer to the post above you. the violent protesters may share a tiny bit of the blame, i will agree. this kind of a reaction from police however is ridiculous. they are clearly aiming to harm, injure and torture.
as i've said, it's not a strictly political movement therefore is not associated with one or several political/religious views. yes there are communists protesting. next to them you have conservatives, next socialists, next muslims, politically neutrals etc.
Sharing ideas like four months ago when the communists suicide bombed the US Embassy in Ankara - killing people?
You might be correct and perhaps the communists are only trying to protest peacefully this time - though their entire ideology leans towards oppression and stagnation of society.
that generalization doesn't seem fair.
some in ankara say that they are under the banner of tkp as only protesters of police brutality in the recent protests, not trying to spark a revolution.
some lulz for the turkgaf.
in arguably the most politically-involved university in turkey, METU, chemistry department has prepared bottles of antiacid to be distributed to their students(and everyone else) for tonight.
pretty good video.
I'm not talking about communism per se (though I can't stop myself from overreacting when communism or fascism is mentioned) but about these factions inside Turkey that are known to be violent and have committed acts in the past.
The demonstrations were peaceful in the beginning and justified in many respects but right now there is definitely an "element" trying to build this confrontation between different political sides in a country that has largely been moving towards a positive direction regardless of the issues that ECtHR has repeated various times.
Majority of the protesters are educated people who have not even been politically active before. Including me and my sister, we were both at protests. Majority of those people there are not motivated by an ideology, they are just fed up with Erdogan screwing with the foundations of our secular republic and everyday personal life.
People are just very angry about Erdogan and his not-so-well-hidden agenda of slowly turning this country into a religious state. It happened spontaniously and frankly a protest against Erdogan on this scale wasn't even thought to be possible before. He tied the media to himself and feeding the country with the information he deems fit to be shared.
Even now after all these events, the media is under censorship. The protests are not being broadcasted, and only select news are fed to the country which are favorable for the government. People who are not on social media are still unaware of what's happening and on what scale.
Please read up on the subject before jumping into conclusions. These whole demonstrations thing started as a peaceful protest at a park which then blown out of proportions by the actions of the police and the government. Everybody took to the streets to protest against disproportionate crackdowns which then promptly turned into mass protest against Erdogan and his authoritan protests.
There are some opportunists groups who take the advantage of the situation and just go rioting stuff(kurdish seperatists, "radical" communists and such), but as I've said they're a minority and people, the protesters are trying to stop them whenever they can.
As usual for the mass media, refer to this comic:
People are just very angry about Erdogan and his not-so-well-hidden agenda of slowly turning this country into a religious state. It happened spontaniously and frankly a protest against Erdogan on this scale wasn't even thought to be possible before. He tied the media to himself and feeding the country with the information he deems fit to be shared.
Even now after all these events, the media is under censorship. The protests are not being broadcasted, and only select news are fed to the country which are favorable for the government. People who are not on social media are still unaware of what's happening and on what scale.
Please read up on the subject before jumping into conclusions. These whole demonstrations thing started as a peaceful protest at a park which then blown out of proportions by the actions of the police and the government. Everybody took to the streets to protest against disproportionate crackdowns which then promptly turned into mass protest against Erdogan and his authoritan protests.
There are some opportunists groups who take the advantage of the situation and just go rioting stuff(kurdish seperatists, "radical" communists and such), but as I've said they're a minority and people, the protesters are trying to stop them whenever they can.
As usual for the mass media, refer to this comic:
For me it seems more like conservative legislation instead of turning your nation into a theocracy. Similar policies have been enacted in European countries after center-right parties have won - f.e sale and advertisement of alcohol is extremely restricted in several places. More important is the overall stability and economic strength and the current government has provided......but that's just my view.
That being said, there is nothing wrong with public demonstrations but we'll see how the situation develops.
jakonovski
Member
It can't be a positive direction by definition if Turkey's allies are worried about their stability and now a few years later there's massive protests and a brutal police crackdown, complete with government attempts to shut down communications in order to hide what's happening.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/twitter-is-a-troublemaker-turkish-pm---.aspx
CharlieDigital
Banned
prior to the event, people were divided into smaller groups according to their political/religious views. now, it just seems like police-protester or akp-others, at least in demonstrations.
situation is pretty tense, i fear that one mistake, one provocation from either side will make all the hell break loose. which should pose a great threat because of the existing provocateurs in turkey.
extremely disturbing memoirs of a protester from yesterday, in turkish.
#direnafrika (africa, resist!) is a tt on twitter now. people are tweeting stuff like "beware africa, tayyip is on his way! here's how to deal with gas bombs!"
lol.
another lol moment for turkgaf.
EDIT:translated the memoirs, serious rage material:
"first of all, i would like to thank all the lawyers who called, offered their help and cared. i am at home, i am okay. i want to write down what i experienced, the sole purpose of this is to inform other people about what has been happening to the detained people. i have no other motives, i would like to state that clearly. i will write all that has happened, including all the swearing, cursing and the insults. truth and nothing but the truth...
the night before (3.6.13) at 9 p.m. i was arrested at beşiktaş, barbaros boulevard. i was neither swearing nor throwing rocks at the police. they arrested me as soon as they saw me, apparently some friends saw how i was grabbed by the police from their tv. it was hell from then on. while we were traveling from there to bus stops (buses were used to take people in custody), every policeman that saw me took a swing. for 100-150 meters i was beaten. there were endless insults like "are you the ones to save the country, you sons of wh*res!". i couldn't even count how many people hit me before we arrived to the bus. just as we arrived, someone from behind the bus yelled "get him over here!". they started beating us behind the bus. later i found out that they had beaten us between the back of the bus and the wall so that the cameras couldn't see. when we boarded the bus, all lights were turned off.
i could hear some girl begging and screaming like "i swear i am innocent." i couldn't see who was hitting me in the bus. in the dark, only thing i could do was to protect my head. insults and swearing were going on as well. when i sat down, everybody was beating me so i stood up and went over to the corner. they told me to sit down, i said "i got beaten when i sit." they came and beat me again and sat me down. they were beating the girl as well, they were strangling her. some civil policeman named suleyman said these exact words to the girl: "i will fuck you right here right now i swear." and the answer she gave was deplorable. she could only say: "okay sir.". we were 3 people on the bus, they made us chant "we love turkish police! we love our country!". they were yelling us to be more loud. beating and swearing was going on.
they brought in another protester, his nose was broken. another one named mustafa, he was beaten by 20 policeman. he couldn't even stand straight. they beat him with their helmets, later smashed his head into the window of the bus. he was in handcuffs, his head was bleeding very bad. i approached him and cleaned his wounds with the other protesters shirt. a police cursed me, saying "let it bleed". they didn't care in the slightest. we finally convinced them to release him from the handcuffs.
when we arrived at the police department, mustafa said "did they hit me? i can't remember." we weren't allowed to go to the toilets, they only gave us one bottle of water. then, we were taken to hospitals and then the police departments again. there were an army of lawyers waiting for us. police were talking to us kindly now, they were asking things nicely.
i would like to thank everyone including the lawyers, people who alerted the lawyers and everyone who cared about us. this text does not contain even the slightest exaggeration, this all happened. i just want everyone to be informed about what has been happening."
CharlieDigital
Banned
Already posted here, but WTF is this? Police running up to random people sitting around and starting to beat them?
. . . yet this is not Europe, it's Turkey. If Europe has similiar things in place and similiar authoritan governments, shame on them too.
This is not about only alcohol. Far from it. This is about being dictated how to live your life by a backwards religious government. I live in Germany and I don't see Angela Merkel posing in TV's in a macho pose and telling me to have at least 3 kids, send my kids to religious schools, filter my internet and block blogs for "our security", weep for the people in Gaza while promptly ignoring our own people dying in terrorist bombings, calling Ataturk a "drunk", abolishing our military in a case nobody really understands . . . and you get the idea.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
people outside ntv (a major news channel in turkey), shaking bills/banknotes at them:
today, people will try to have a more peaceful approach in protests. we'll see how this goes.
EDIT: inside ntv hq.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QtLE8LbQe8&feature=youtu.be
events like that will be reason that something may happen.
Some hard science there bro. Throw a brick in air and try to catch it with your forehead.
CharlieDigital
Banned
This definitely got a WTF out of me when I read this AM. I thought about responding, but then I read the rest of his posts lol and it's a lost cause -- a waste of time typing anything reasonable in response.
I mean, come on man, women drive all of the world and what kind of shit happens? I don't even understand what the implication is. That women will be empowered? That women will be able to commute to work? That women will be able to fully participate in capitalism? That women will be treated as full and equal citizens? That women will no longer be dependent and beholden to their male family members?
Both my wife and mother drive every day. Please explain what type of shit has been happening under my nose that I don't even know about.
It's the year two-thousand-and-thirteen, man; women have been driving for as long as men have.
You decide, false flag or police exploiting the situation in an attempt to rob the banks:
Turkish police vandalizing ATM machine
This is exactly what you need to convince the big money to keep backing Erdogan throughout this, make it look like demonstrators are simply anti-capitalists. There is nothing that will scare those with real power more into 'voluntarily' obeying established leadership.
Turkish police vandalizing ATM machine
This is exactly what you need to convince the big money to keep backing Erdogan throughout this, make it look like demonstrators are simply anti-capitalists. There is nothing that will scare those with real power more into 'voluntarily' obeying established leadership.
apparently, an ak-47 was found in a police vehicle.
what do you think, gaf? plantation? real? fake?
protester makes a turkish flag out of his wound
it's on at ankara right now. he's trying to reach the central zones, currently checking the medic ports around ankara.
what do you think, gaf? plantation? real? fake?
protester makes a turkish flag out of his wound
it's on at ankara right now. he's trying to reach the central zones, currently checking the medic ports around ankara.
Do u know we were talking about saudi arabia?
CharlieDigital
Banned
Are women in Saudi Arabia somehow different from women anywhere else in the world?
Please explain to me how women all over the world are able to drive, but Saudi women are an exception.
I am sitting here in anticipation of an explanation because it will surely be entertaining.
The army might be secularism's last hope- they may need to revolt against the government.
If the fundies really are the majority- a democracy dominated by fundies usually ends up worse than a military dictatorship.
Real, corrupt police around the globe are frequently spotted with undeclared confiscated items from weapons to drugs, whenever they need to make an arrest stick without being able to supply evidence of illegal activity they magically discover an item from their own goodie bag.
jakonovski
Member
Dictatorship is never an answer. That said, neither is tyranny of the majority. Erdogan doesn't get to oppress those who didn't vote for him, and at this point he and his cabinet should step down and re-elections should be held. Also, criminal investigations into the role of both the police and political leadership in the violence against protestors.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
The biggest problem with Turks is, and I say that as a Turk who was born and raised in Germany, that they can't accept any other opinion other than their own. Turks divide each other in various groups like "Cemaatci" (someone who is in a religious sect), "Atatürkcü", "Sagci" (rightist), "Solcu" (leftist), "Kürt", "Alevi", "Batili" (Westerner), "Dogulu" (Easterner) etc etc. I sometimes think that it is ingrained in our genetic pool that we divide everything in groups and don't see us as one entity. These groups hate each other and don't even listen to any argument and immediately dismisses everything they say. The protests are ultimatively an outcome of this mentality of Turks. Erdogan and his supporters don't listen to the opponents and the opponents don't listen to supporters of Erdogan. The whole Kurd-Turk problem stems from this too.
The protesters who right now are protesting for "freedom" are btw in no way better than Erdogans conservative supporters. Go right now in the middle of the protesters and scream "Atatürk sucks" in turkish and see what happens. I guarantee you, that you wouldn't come out alive out of that mob. Real freedom is when you can say what you want wherever you want.
And a Turks idea of Democracy is that it is only a Democracy when their ideology is represented in the government, otherwise the nation isn't democratic somehow. This is the reason why until 2002 governments fell in like 6 months and even faster, it was a lot worse than in Japan.
As a Turk I am upset that this country is being held back since 1923, because Turkey really has so much potential. If our people don't change in the coming years, which is unlikely to happen, Turkey will be stuck in the same loophole it is since being founded. Two steps forwards, two steps backwards.
The protesters who right now are protesting for "freedom" are btw in no way better than Erdogans conservative supporters. Go right now in the middle of the protesters and scream "Atatürk sucks" in turkish and see what happens. I guarantee you, that you wouldn't come out alive out of that mob. Real freedom is when you can say what you want wherever you want.
And a Turks idea of Democracy is that it is only a Democracy when their ideology is represented in the government, otherwise the nation isn't democratic somehow. This is the reason why until 2002 governments fell in like 6 months and even faster, it was a lot worse than in Japan.
As a Turk I am upset that this country is being held back since 1923, because Turkey really has so much potential. If our people don't change in the coming years, which is unlikely to happen, Turkey will be stuck in the same loophole it is since being founded. Two steps forwards, two steps backwards.
paradise_circus
Member
Nah, that's observable in every southern europe /balkan state and probably more.
Mavromatis
Member
A good observation but creates a paradox:
If I accept this as a Turk it'll be false, if I don't it'll be true.
Identification is a real issue in most post Ottoman states, there is no one national id accepted by everyone so people try to identify themselves all the time. And the dangerous thing about identification it creates the idea of "Others".
Not gonna lie, you trying to rationalize why women shouldn't be able to go out without a man or drive is pretty fucked up.
I lived several years in Saudi and experienced that shithole of a country for myself. Am I allowed to say shit about it now?
You are posting some seriously dumb things and I am not sure if you are a troll or not but here is how AKP alcohol laws differ from say "Finland".
The initial "you can only buy drinks between this and this hour" is not a problem. It is all the other laws and rules they are passing hidden behind that one. Such as "You cannot have a place that sells alcohol within 200m of a Quran school". Now you might be saying hey ok how many Quran schools can there be? answer is: as many as they need. You could be opening up a liquor store in a neighbourhood or applying for liquor license for your restaurant and overnight some Quran school pops up in the basement of a apartment and it is "oh sorry, you can't sell alcohol here". These are the things this cocksucker of a government has been using to turn this country slowly into Iran over the years.
Facism
Member
Great thread.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Comparison between CNN Türk and CNN Europe:
but don't complain. There is a perfect explanation for this:
....
....
....
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Comparison between CNN Türk and CNN Europe:
but don't complain. There is a perfect explanation for this:
....
....
....
Holy shit... i have no words.
great protesting method, for turkgaf.
it's a word-guessing game, the closest i can think of is wheel of fortune (i am sure another gaffer who lives abroad can name a more similar one). you are granted letters and you try to guess the word.
basically what's been happening is the game show host is ridiculing the government/police by asking questions like "what is the word that means the personal quality that one should have whatever his profession may be?" and the answer is "mercy." it went on for nearly the whole show, over 30 questions, all about the recent events, some were really pointy. you can sense the joy in the host's eyes.
meanwhile, the protests reach a whole new level in taksim (not really).
it's a word-guessing game, the closest i can think of is wheel of fortune (i am sure another gaffer who lives abroad can name a more similar one). you are granted letters and you try to guess the word.
basically what's been happening is the game show host is ridiculing the government/police by asking questions like "what is the word that means the personal quality that one should have whatever his profession may be?" and the answer is "mercy." it went on for nearly the whole show, over 30 questions, all about the recent events, some were really pointy. you can sense the joy in the host's eyes.
meanwhile, the protests reach a whole new level in taksim (not really).
CNN iReport Turkish police captured gassing a house
Police caught on video breaking windows of homes and then shooting gas canisters inside.
Erdogan visits Morocco as Turkey riots rage
Delusional or will they be upgrading to sarin gas?
Police caught on video breaking windows of homes and then shooting gas canisters inside.
Erdogan visits Morocco as Turkey riots rage
Delusional or will they be upgrading to sarin gas?
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