jakonovski
Member
People, please stop using terms such as "islamofascists". This whole thing is not reducible to an 30 second American right wing soundbyte.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Istanbul burning, protestors angry at Government...
- Thread starter SnakeXs
- Start date
- Status
Do you know the history and charter of the Muslim Brotherhood? how about their spiritual architect Sayyid Qutb?
I encourage you to explore and tell me again this is not fascism including full blown supremacism.
Halk TV wins:
A typical AKP muslim's understanding of democracy. It's only a vehicle for implementing shariah law
It was about time. After all your time in this thread I doubt you have learned anything about the opposing perspective.
Kulaklarini kapatip uyumaya devam et sen.
jakonovski
Member
Do you know the history and charter of the Muslim Brotherhood? how about their spiritual architect Sayyid Qutb?
I encourage you to explore and tell me again this is not fascism including full blown supremacism.
Halk TV wins:
Hey, I agree that the current events are a horrible thing. But islamofascism as a term is something coined by right wingers in America, as a dogwhistle pretty much. You know, the people whose favorite turn of phrase is "bomb the middle east". You don't want to ally with them.
I would agree that ignorance and wealth of leadership are not mutually exclusive, but I would say ignorance must be solved before the wealth of the electorate can improve. Lets use median household income as the gauge. When median household income begins to rise, ignorance of all forms begins to reduce. For education levels to improve, there must be a broader tax base to support the education, which comes from rising household income. For median household income to continue to rise, higher levels of education are needed. With the reduction of ignorance comes greater social freedoms and stronger democracies.
Saudi Arabia would be an example of highly concentrated wealth at the top and poverty at the bottom. Turkey is in a far more desirable position than Saudi Arabia as it is witnessing relatively broad-based economic growth from non-oil based industries (i.e. the manufacturing hub of the Middle East) that are attempting to rise all boats.
As for Iran, its not my view that Sunnis are attempting to replicate the Iranian Revolution. I do think leaders of Muslim countries consider more heavily the opinions of their rural majorities as a result of its aftermath, even if the rural religious opinions may not be in the best interest of the socioeconomic improvement of the country. Leaders fear the potential of the one group most difficult to suppress, the religious, rising up; I don't think there is a large group supporting Islamic theocracy. Once this seed of doubt in separating Islam from governance was placed, it began to unwind the schools of thought of Ataturk and Nasser.
I don't doubt that if the public knew of the corruption within his government, they would likely vote against him. That does not mean, though, that someone of similar social policies wouldn't succeed him, either immediately or within a few election cycles. The change in voters' social views occurs with education and economic growth over time. That is what will reduce ignorance and promote more freedoms in the long run and more permanently.
Ultimately, I feel Erdogan is the devil we know, and in the long-term better serves the socioeconomic advancement of Turkey than the range of potential devils we don't know. He has overseen Turkey's economic boom, and I don't know if there are many other leaders I would trust with continuing it. The best case scenario in my opinion would be that he loosens some of his restrictions on the media as a result of the protests yet stays in power. I think it would be the best next step to take for Turkey without hitting the reset button on all the improvements the country has gone through in the last decade.
Oh no! How will this thread continue without you here to avoid discussing what's been happening out in the streets the past few weeks?
Oh I certainly don't want to be in that corner but I have encountered people who refuse to accept there is a deep seated strain of fascism embedded in the dominant faction of Sunni Islamism. Egypt contentiously is providing examples of it now if the history books didn't suffice for anyone.
Personally I've never used the term because I consider it as meaningless as Islamophobia, only ignorance can allow somebody to hate Islam as a whole, it's too diverse and in plenty of interpretations aren't more harmful than other religions.
Police lock down Taksim, PM shows off in Istanbul
Pretty obvious now he wants to spread division in society and turn people against one another based on false claims, not being very religious does not mean disrespecting religion but he wants it to be obviously. Absolutely horrifying he wants to connect Al-Qaeda terrorism to the Gezi Park movement, he knows the truth well enough.
Megalomania? He's certainly making right-wing EU happy, they finally have an excuse to ditch Turkey entirely, funny how those two always end up doing each others dirty work.
You know, I would have given the police some kind of free pass if they just used the violence "only" against the protest in the park. But hunting down the protestors, breaking into hotels, shooting gas into lobbies, and now attacking every protester before they can, you know protest....
Erdogan is fighting against democracy and his own people.
Erdogan is fighting against democracy and his own people.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Oh and apparently the "water" that the police were using against the protesters doesn't seemed to be water after wall. Many protester have gotten burns and allergic reactions from whatever they put into the things they have been spraying on people for weeks. The leading government and the police are sinking lower and lower.
Has a strong yellow/brown tint to it. Could it be UV dye for identifying people present afterwards?
They were mixing pepper spray with the water.
Islamist horde chasing secularists with clubs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BSIwRoQbyw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BSIwRoQbyw
Personally think Erdogan is an idiot, not because of the obvious reasons, but because a modern country can not afford protests like that.
Economically protests like that are a disaster, tourism will suffer very much and also investments will slow down. In a globalized world, people want partners, not riots and this is a real problem.
Yes, he may stay in charge, like the muslim brotherhood in Egypt. But staying in charge of what. Egypt is pretty much bankrupt, tourism is gone and the economy is terrible. They do not find any investors. Iran may like them now, but they do not have the money to actually invest into their economy.
Turkey wants to be a regional superpower, but they need foreign money for that as well. But with all those riots, investments will go down. And soon his own voters will feel that as well. Yes, he might have lost some of his powers and maybe even some respect from his voters, but in the long term, in my opinion, it would have helped him more, if he would have been more moderate.
Economically protests like that are a disaster, tourism will suffer very much and also investments will slow down. In a globalized world, people want partners, not riots and this is a real problem.
Yes, he may stay in charge, like the muslim brotherhood in Egypt. But staying in charge of what. Egypt is pretty much bankrupt, tourism is gone and the economy is terrible. They do not find any investors. Iran may like them now, but they do not have the money to actually invest into their economy.
Turkey wants to be a regional superpower, but they need foreign money for that as well. But with all those riots, investments will go down. And soon his own voters will feel that as well. Yes, he might have lost some of his powers and maybe even some respect from his voters, but in the long term, in my opinion, it would have helped him more, if he would have been more moderate.
Four_Chamber
Member
As an American, while I hate the violence against the protestors, I don't frankly care nor do I empathize with the issues that they are protesting against. AKP has been elected with >50% of the vote and frankly, I don't see why people are so enamored with the secularists who ran the Turkish economy into the ground before AKP came to power.
Again, I'm not Turkish but as an outsider I prefer AKP to be in power and I have a good feeling that they will continue their electoral success given how inept the opposition parties in Turkey are at this time. They don't seem America GOP bad, but close in their lack of ideas.
Again, I'm not Turkish but as an outsider I prefer AKP to be in power and I have a good feeling that they will continue their electoral success given how inept the opposition parties in Turkey are at this time. They don't seem America GOP bad, but close in their lack of ideas.
They are far, FAR worse than GOP. Also if you think it's OK to trade freedom for better economic conditions, I don't know what to say to you.
Art Teitlebaum
Member
Just a short salute to Istan-GAF. Stay safe but also stay firm. Democracy and the right to demonstrate go hand in hand. Don't let them authoritarian assholes get away with this shit.
Best wishes from Almanya to all the democatic forces down there.
Best wishes from Almanya to all the democatic forces down there.
50% + is not the population of a country. That is why the US is failing as well, like most governments nowadays.
You have to include everybody, also the people who have not voted for you or else your country will fail. This is why countries without a real direct democracy have problems like they have. Minorities always also need a platform in politics. Or else, you will have protests, violent ones or just ones destroying your economy because of strikes or other forms of protest.
You have to include everybody, also the people who have not voted for you or else your country will fail. This is why countries without a real direct democracy have problems like they have. Minorities always also need a platform in politics. Or else, you will have protests, violent ones or just ones destroying your economy because of strikes or other forms of protest.
I think the 'They' in his sentence was referring to the opposition parties, not the AKP.
For which I would agree with Four_Chamber on.
We are not talking about a society that has thousands of dissenters 'disappearing'. We're talking about controlled media and freedom of speech, and disagreement on how separated Mosque and State should be. We're talking about a leader who won with +50% of the vote three times in elections observed by international groups. We're talking about a rural conservative majority voting against an urban liberal minority.
The discussion doesn't sound that different from the American discussion. Should Snowden be labeled a 'traitor' for giving info to the media, can Merry Christmas be said in Texas, how should we handle the differences between people from America's Heartland and Greenwich Village?
Would you take the American trade of freedoms for security or the Turkish trade of freedoms for wealth and prosperity? Or would you take neither?
If you'll take neither, where is America's Taksim Square?
I witnessed multiple large, peaceful, communist protests marching up Istiklal in just one week of being there. I remember having a chuckle thinking Republicans must think this is Obama's voter base (Communist Muslims). There was also a protest for equal pay for women in the workforce. I don't remember the last time a large communist group marched on Broadway. The closest thing I've seen in my lifetime in the US is Occupy Wall Street, and even that pales in comparison to what seems to occur in other countries. It felt like practically every day there was a large peaceful protest going up Istiklal to Taksim. What does it say about the US that it seems differing political views are more visible in Turkey's political dialog than ours, yet their government is indeed clearly manipulating the media?
Mavromatis
Member
I assume you never heard of a thing called "local government".
And now people have to "deserve" their democracy.
Also I would like to remind again that despite the fact that AKP gets huge amounts of votes, it didn't get %50 of the voters. There is a generally ignored "normalization" which gives the leading party a really large bonus and smaller ones to the rest in order. Despite being the silliest thing and every government ever promising that they'll get rid of that, as you can guess nobody ever did.
Wow. You live in a country whose governemnt was design around fear of the tyranny of mjority, but you don't give a shit since 50%?
Could you give me further details on this percentage swing? I'm viewing the popular vote numbers in the 2011 general election per Wikipedia for the AKP and I'm seeing the following:
Code:
AKP 21,399,182 49.83%
CHP 11,155,972 25.98%
MHP 05,585,513 13.01%The swing seems to take AKP up to 53%. CHP seemed to have benefited more from the swing with +5.13% from it. Even so, at 49.83%, it seems hard to argue AKP had the support of half the population (only off by 65k votes. That could come from mistakes counting ballots).
Mavromatis
Member
I think that "swing" is the increase or decrease in results compared to the last election. You can see that the parties that wasn't in the last election doesn't have one.
I would love to give you detailed information but I don't have detailed information. YSK, the institution who organizes the election doesn't give raw information, just the end results. I think one can find it reading the related law but I'm not a lawyer. So I'll give you the basic version that I know from election promises about it and media reports on it during election times:
There is a point that a party must reach in percentage of votes to be able to send an MP to the parliament. I think it is 15% nationwide and 10% on local. If you can't reach 15%, your votes goes to a pool and gets redistributed starting from the leading party.
That was why BDP candidates went independent to bypass that system.
(is that swing value not just the increase in popularity of the previous years?)
I *think*, not certain, that was Mavro was referring to is a bit of a strange element of elections in turkey whereby when a party receives less than a certain amount of the votes (5%, maybe 10%, not certain), the seats those parties WOULD have won if the votes counted instead go to the winning party (in this case, the AKP). This leads the parliament to be filled with more AKP members than it should be (for example with those election results, like 12% more AKP members than were voted for).
edit - Mavro out and out beat me with a better explanation
edit edit - This is a great example, taken from a main Turkish news group.
"In 2002 elections, for instance, the AKP won 66 percent of the seats in the parliament with only 34 percent of the votes. All but the CHP failed the threshold and a majority of the seats would have gone to the smaller parties went to the AKP. Hard to believe as it may be, sixteen parties, which received over 45 percent of the total votes, were barred from the parliament because they each failed to reach the ten percent threshold, and over 14 million voters were disenfranchised. "
edit edit edit - Source, I am a retard http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&n=turkey8217s-threshold-2011-05-08
Yeah, that's some good democracy there :/(is that swing value not just the increase in popularity of the previous years?)
I *think*, not certain, that was Mavro was referring to is a bit of a strange element of elections in turkey whereby when a party receives less than a certain amount of the votes (5%, maybe 10%, not certain), the seats those parties WOULD have won if the votes counted instead go to the winning party (in this case, the AKP). This leads the parliament to be filled with more AKP members than it should be (for example with those election results, like 12% more AKP members than were voted for).
edit - Mavro out and out beat me with a better explanation
edit edit - This is a great example, taken from a main Turkish news group.
"In 2002 elections, for instance, the AKP won 66 percent of the seats in the parliament with only 34 percent of the votes. All but the CHP failed the threshold and a majority of the seats would have gone to the smaller parties went to the AKP. Hard to believe as it may be, sixteen parties, which received over 45 percent of the total votes, were barred from the parliament because they each failed to reach the ten percent threshold, and over 14 million voters were disenfranchised. "
edit edit edit - Source, I am a retard http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&n=turkey8217s-threshold-2011-05-08
To be fair, the CHP never exactly complained about it when they were the #1 party. But yeah, that element of the system needs to be changed ASAP, though it's unlikely it will, as it benefits the ruling party
To be fair, the CHP never exactly complained about it when they were the #1 party. But yeah, that element of the system needs to be changed ASAP, though it's unlikely it will, as it benefits the ruling party
Yeah, that's the trouble with a flawed system. Much like the FPP two party system in the US. Not changing since all it would do is reduce the power of those two parties.
You know, your diet of Economist, NYT etc is really showing in this post. What you just wrote is utter nonsense and the sort of propaganda level bullcrap the Western media has been spewing since 2002.
First of all, Turkey's economy wasn't run into the ground by anyone. Turkey used to suffer from financial boom and bust cycles, the last one hitting in 1999. It was a severe crisis and the necessary reforms to prevent future crisis were put in place even before Erdogan came to power. That's why for instance, Turkey didn't have a financial meltdown like Europe in 2008.
Turkey has never been a rich or developed country. Ever since it's founding in 1923 it has been trying to industrialize and achieve developed nation status. In the long term Turkey was only going to go up. Unfortunately history played a wildcard in 2002 when this guy was able to achieve total government control with only 34% of the vote. The rapid development building on the efforts of previous decades, happened despite Erdogan, not because of him. The rampant corruption displayed by him and his AKP might have broken nations that weren't on such an upswing.
As for this secular elite/secularists nonsense the Western press is pushing, these secular elites were the very people who the US and Europe relied on for decades. The school of Demirel, Ozal, Yilmaz, Ciller the predecessors of Erdogan as lapdogs of the Western interests in Turkey.
Neither the center left CHP nor far right MHP are part of that decadent group.
speculawyer
Member
I love the Turkish version of Islam . . . . alcohol is fine but you give it up for Ramadan. Well, during the day-light hours only. And none of this kill the blasphemer or apostate shit.
When all of Islam is like that, the world will be much better.
When all of Islam is like that, the world will be much better.
Much like all religions, the more relaxed/moderate they are, the friendlier they are.
AKP is closer to the Taliban version of Islam than the Turkish version.
New alcohol law has nothing to do with traffic accidents/deaths.
ıf the government wants to reduce the number of traffic accidents and drunk drivers (and they absolutely should) the solution to this is very simple:
- Punishments must be much higher. No warnings. If a citizen is caught driving drunk he/she must be put on trial and his/her license must be taken for a long period like 2 years. - No exceptions.
ıf the government wants to reduce the number of traffic accidents and drunk drivers (and they absolutely should) the solution to this is very simple:
- Punishments must be much higher. No warnings. If a citizen is caught driving drunk he/she must be put on trial and his/her license must be taken for a long period like 2 years. - No exceptions.
Mgoblue201
Won't stop picking the right nation
This is not entirely true. The Turkish economy was mired in a recession when Erdogan took over in 2002 (the stock market had just crashed the year before). Although much of the plan to salvage the economy was in place by the time he was elected, the Erdogan government stuck with those plans and implemented additional structural reforms. There was nothing inevitable about the sustained period of strong economic growth.
I don't think Erdogan's wins were illegitimate. His rule may be Chavez-esque, but I think he won legitimately.
(and really, he does sound like an Islamist Chavez)
The real issue is what can a suppressed minority do in a tyranny of the majority? You're not going to change the minds of the masses.
(and really, he does sound like an Islamist Chavez)
The real issue is what can a suppressed minority do in a tyranny of the majority? You're not going to change the minds of the masses.
Mavromatis
Member
17 June, 2013 - 'Hateful' Speech in Istanbul: Erdogan Throws Fuel on Flames
So we had a speech where he called those who opposed him the enemies of Islam and now they are enemies of the state as well... If they aren't 'real' Turks then what are they? it's a nationality... not an opinion. What a petty disgusting provocateur he turns out to be, none of the fallen leaders in the Arab Spring even went that low in turning people against each other.
Not even a hint of reconciliation.
Daft Punk - Giorgie by Morodor (Tayyiip vs. Gezi)
So we had a speech where he called those who opposed him the enemies of Islam and now they are enemies of the state as well... If they aren't 'real' Turks then what are they? it's a nationality... not an opinion. What a petty disgusting provocateur he turns out to be, none of the fallen leaders in the Arab Spring even went that low in turning people against each other.
Not even a hint of reconciliation.
Daft Punk - Giorgie by Morodor (Tayyiip vs. Gezi)
Mavromatis
Member
Turkey's parliament passed sweeping new censorship laws yesterday:
Turkey cracking down on Internet usage
This coming after the police and courts were purged and publicly shamed earlier this year, things aren't looking too good.
Turkey cracking down on Internet usage
This coming after the police and courts were purged and publicly shamed earlier this year, things aren't looking too good.
Add in the recent laws making it illegal for doctors to provide emergency medical care without permission outside of their workplaces and yeah, it's safe to say things aren't looking good.
(such blatant targetting of the doctors who assisted the protestors, smh)
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Turkey trying its best to censor the internet is not new, but this is incredibly gross. Erdogan is way over his head.
archnemesis
Member
I hope we'll see more riots over this and that the rest of Europe will put some pressure on the Turkish government.
archnemesis
Member
What internet neutering bandwagon? Are non-religious countries also trying to censor websites they don't agree with? The state shouldn't concern itself with personal morality.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Yes?
Last time I checked, yes, old men in power in the UK were being idiots about how the internet is handled.
And used the same excuse Turkey just did.
archnemesis
Member
I can't think of an example in my country where the government has shut down websites because of personal morality. If pornography is illegal in Turkey then I guess you could compare it to shutting down websites because of copyright infringment or child pornography.
Edit: Yikes! The Wikipedia article on UK censorship is quite long.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
United Kingdom isn't even the worst offender, it's a drop in the ocean compared to Australia.
PJV3
Member
Just go back to the 1970s, blue circles covering rude bits.
The Technology must be available for that.
Unfortunately Nipple Recognition Software isn't advanced enough yet.
While currently it's targetting pornography, I have absolutely no doubt that it will be expanded if AKP are given the chance, to block "problematic" sites. Don't forget that this is the same party that had youtube blocked for YEARS. And subsequently tried to criminalise the use of all kind of proxies, hahahaha.
- Status