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It's been so many years and we still can't get rid of LCD ghosting

93xfan

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Does plasma have this issue? I have a 2009 plasma and haven’t seen this. Saw some 4K gaming at a MS store months ago for the first time and everything seemed really blurry and off in motion. Was it due to this?
 

Rentahamster

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-Arcadia-

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Lmao yes everyone gets their info from DF.

Okay, a tiny, fractional niche of Gabe avatar sporting neckbeards that spend their lives on ultra-technical forums already knew. Better?

This didn't remotely broach even the hardcore gaming community until that video. People were surprised and confused that a CRT could be better at anything that wasn't retro games.
 
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Compsiox

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Okay, a tiny, fractional niche of Gabe avatar sporting neckbeards that spend their lives on ultra-technical forums already knew. Better?

This didn't remotely broach even the hardcore gaming community until that video. People were surprised and confused that a CRT could be better at anything that wasn't retro games.
Kinda don't think you know what the hardcore PC crowd is aware of. Keep pretending you do though.
 

Ovek

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Does plasma have this issue? I have a 2009 plasma and haven’t seen this. Saw some 4K gaming at a MS store months ago for the first time and everything seemed really blurry and off in motion. Was it due to this?

Not really, plasma tvs are significantly better at motion because of the sub-field drive rate and each pixel in a plasma TV is self-emissive (who needed OLED) which allowed for much greater control.

Much like CRTs plasma displays are just better than LED technology, they just sucked way to much power for the modern world.

HDR on a plasma would have looked insane.
 
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Tygeezy

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Unfortunately, BFI on OLEDs dims the already not so great brightness to a degree that I stay away from it unlike with QLEDs. 👀
So you just increase the oled light. SDR targets 100 nits maximum which is very doable on oleds considering an oled light of 25 gets you 100 nits.
 

butane bob

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Does plasma have this issue? I have a 2009 plasma and haven’t seen this. Saw some 4K gaming at a MS store months ago for the first time and everything seemed really blurry and off in motion. Was it due to this?
No Plasma's don't have this problem. And yes that would have been what you saw in store. It's funny how everyone is banging on about 4k this and 8k that - All the resolution in the world means nothing when everything gets smeared across the screen the second it starts moving. Unless people are just using their 4K screens to look at static pictures or excel spread sheets.
 
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Tygeezy

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Does plasma have this issue? I have a 2009 plasma and haven’t seen this. Saw some 4K gaming at a MS store months ago for the first time and everything seemed really blurry and off in motion. Was it due to this?
Plasma doesnt have this issue because it isnt sample and hold. However 30 fps games at 60 hz on plasma or any impulsed display (CRT) will produce double images on fast moving content.

Also, even 60 hz on impulsed displays can be a bit intolerable for people due to flicker. 30 fps at 30 hz with an impulsed display is a no go.

 
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93xfan

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No Plasma's don't have this problem. And yes that would have been what you saw in store. It's funny how everyone is banging on about 4k this and 8k that - All the resolution in the world means nothing when everything gets smeared across the screen the second it starts moving. Unless people are just using their 4K screens to look at static pictures or excel spread sheets.

it was Jarring. it was Forza Horizon 4 at 30fps. Will 60FPS games be less of a problem?
 

Tygeezy

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Yeah, this is mainly why I wish minimum target fps was 60.
Even 60 hz can be intolerable with impulsed displays or lcd/oled with black frame insertion. the flicker can be really bad wit ha lot of white on display. 80 + hz is where its difficult to notice the flicker.
 

Tygeezy

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The holy grail by the way is 1000 hz sample and hold displays and games using a frame rate interpolation to artificially increase framerate to 1000 fps. That's in the cards somewhere in the future and something nvidia might be working on now seeing their work with DLSS.

 
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Faenrir

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It's very easy to see the issue for yourselves. Anyone who claims "i don't see it" you can do this simple test:

Load a 2D scrolling game, preferably an old one via an emulator or some other service. I recommend Sonic 1 for this. When the game loads and you see the graphics, stay still and look at the foreground. In Sonic, the foreground has this checkered texture pattern. Notice how sharp it is. Now move.... You will notice that the moving foreground isn't as sharp anymore while in motion. It gets blurred. And if you run fast enough you can hardly see any details on it.

That's what happens in all modern panels/monitors/TVs. On a CRT, the moving foreground stays as sharp as it was when it was still. Even at fast speeds you can still follow the foreground with your eyes and make out the sharp checkered texture pattern.

It was a given back in the day but now it looks amazing. If you see it, you won't be able to unsee it and i think you are lucky if you haven't seen a CRT for a while.
Those games were made with CRT tech in mind and there's a lot of things that won't ever look as good rven with the best tvs...or even with an ossc or framemeister
 

Tygeezy

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Those games were made with CRT tech in mind and there's a lot of things that won't ever look as good rven with the best tvs...or even with an ossc or framemeister
120 hz plus black frame insertion via retroarch with scanlines filter is pretty awesome on newer tv's with low input lag.
 
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Faenrir

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120 hz plus black frame insertion via retroarch with scanlines filter is pretty awesome on newer tv's with low input lag.
Yeah but that's not really my point, though.
My point is that the way crts work males those tricks possible and only software can reproduce it (but that's work and overhead). Like that insanely good crt filter in Sonic Mania.
The way colors blend, in particular.

Back on topic, i don't see ghosting on my freesync screen at 75hz, maybe it's because i don't play competitive twitch games 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

Tygeezy

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Yeah but that's not really my point, though.
My point is that the way crts work males those tricks possible and only software can reproduce it (but that's work and overhead). Like that insanely good crt filter in Sonic Mania.
The way colors blend, in particular.

Back on topic, i don't see ghosting on my freesync screen at 75hz, maybe it's because i don't play competitive twitch games 🤷🏻‍♂️
As long as software can reproduce it with minimal input lag I don't see the issue.
 

egocrata

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/hugs his Panasonic VT50 plasma

One pf the very last of its kind. The final incarnation of a dead end technology. To this day, still so much better that the stupid shit that won in the marketplace.

Gah.
 

Tygeezy

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/hugs his Panasonic VT50 plasma

One pf the very last of its kind. The final incarnation of a dead end technology. To this day, still so much better that the stupid shit that won in the marketplace.

Gah.
Plasma would have never been able to get bright enough to do hdr well and it would consume way more power. Newer oleds also have fantastic black frame insertion.

even if tech took a step back in some regards, it was the right step to take overall going forward as we march toward higher refresh rates and motion interpolation.
 
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Ozzy Onya A2Z

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Truth be told I'd kill for a CRT widescreen high res format, CRTs are sooo much better e.g. real blacks, high contrast, high response time, high colour range, no ghosting, less age problems, no motion blur, resolution changing on the fly. The downsides are more power required and dangerous chemicals in use.
 
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Thaedolus

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I got ghosted by a girl once, shit sucks bruh. Good luck with the monitor situation
 

Durask

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It's very easy to see the issue for yourselves. Anyone who claims "i don't see it" you can do this simple test:

Load a 2D scrolling game, preferably an old one via an emulator or some other service. I recommend Sonic 1 for this. When the game loads and you see the graphics, stay still and look at the foreground. In Sonic, the foreground has this checkered texture pattern. Notice how sharp it is. Now move.... You will notice that the moving foreground isn't as sharp anymore while in motion. It gets blurred. And if you run fast enough you can hardly see any details on it.

You can also just do the UFO test on blurbuster.

OP, agree with you, all LCDs suck. Even my 240 Hz gaming monitor still has blur.

Have you tried Plasma TVs? My Panasonic plasma has the least motion blur imho, that's what I play most of my 60 fps games on.
 

nkarafo

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The holy grail by the way is 1000 hz sample and hold displays and games using a frame rate interpolation to artificially increase framerate to 1000 fps. That's in the cards somewhere in the future and something nvidia might be working on now seeing their work with DLSS.

So my prediction of 360hz sample and hold displays reaching CRT levels motion clarity was way off. We still have a long way to go :(
 

Tygeezy

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So my prediction of 360hz sample and hold displays reaching CRT levels motion clarity was way off. We still have a long way to go :(
The 240 hz or 4ms sample and hold time is actually quite good. Again you would need to actually run at 240 FPS or have some sort of motion interpolation.

Black frame insertion at 120 hz on new sets are quite good though. Not much eye strain due to flicker and much improved motion resolution.

crts and Plasmas also have their downsides.
 
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hussar16

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i wont be buying a new tv after spending 3k on oled until there is actual progress on motion that looks like plasma
 

Ulysses 31

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So my prediction of 360hz sample and hold displays reaching CRT levels motion clarity was way off. We still have a long way to go :(
OLED has surpassed Plasma motion clarity when using BFI + motion interpolation. :lollipop_grinning:

 

mdrejhon

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You're never going to get rid of motion blur on LCD. It's just inherit to the sample and hold tech. You can improve it for sure, but it will always remain. It's why even OLED has poor motion resolution. Granted, it has super fast pixel response time, but it's still sample and hold. You're just gonna have to wait for either self-emitting QLED, or micro-LED.
Inventor of TestUFO here.

Just only saw this outdated information now.

Actually, I see thousands of displays. I've already seen some LCDs (such as brand new specially engineered VR LCDs) with less motion blur than CRT. Less than 1% of LCDs can do it, but it's doable with several tricks such as this one.

I've made many replies to a new thread, beginning with this useful one with lots of links to motion tests that helps towards better understanding how to engineer LCDs to have limitless motion clarity.

What you see in a three-figure price 144Hz and 240Hz gaming monitor market ($XXX) is not representative of the best I've seen in labs and niche LCDs, but some of the tech is finally filtering into VR headsets. Also, some LCDs (blue phase) have microsecond GtG response times.
 
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Tygeezy

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Inventor of TestUFO here.

Just only saw this outdated information now.

Actually, I see thousands of displays. I've already seen some LCDs (such as brand new specially engineered VR LCDs) with less motion blur than CRT. Less than 1% of LCDs can do it, but it's doable with several tricks such as this one.

I've made many replies to a new thread, beginning with this useful one with lots of links to motion tests that helps towards better understanding how to engineer LCDs to have limitless motion clarity.

What you see in a three-figure price 144Hz and 240Hz gaming monitor market ($XXX) is not representative of the best I've seen in labs and niche LCDs, but some of the tech is finally filtering into VR headsets. Also, some LCDs (blue phase) have microsecond GtG response times.
Chief Blur Buster in the house!
 
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Dave_at_Home

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Inventor of TestUFO here.

Just only saw this outdated information now.

Actually, I see thousands of displays. I've already seen some LCDs (such as brand new specially engineered VR LCDs) with less motion blur than CRT. Less than 1% of LCDs can do it, but it's doable with several tricks such as this one.

I've made many replies to a new thread, beginning with this useful one with lots of links to motion tests that helps towards better understanding how to engineer LCDs to have limitless motion clarity.

What you see in a three-figure price 144Hz and 240Hz gaming monitor market ($XXX) is not representative of the best I've seen in labs and niche LCDs, but some of the tech is finally filtering into VR headsets. Also, some LCDs (blue phase) have microsecond GtG response times.
Wow. From waaaay downtown back in August when I made that post!

Anyway, good to know some industry is still pushing LCD technology. Problem I see is, is the tech you mentioned ever going to make it into market? Cost at large scale probably isn't so appealing to Chinese manufactures that practically own the LCD industry as a whole. I doubt they'll invest in something so niche when the future looks self-emitting with QD-OLED and micro-LED. As great as almost zero motion blur on an LCD monitor looks, I just couldn't justify spending the price for that kind of performance when contrast ratios are so terrible across the board.
 

mdrejhon

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Anyway, good to know some industry is still pushing LCD technology. Problem I see is, is the tech you mentioned ever going to make it into market?
One form is already on the market... Just purchase a Valve Index VR headset or a Quest 2 VR headset.

They are superlative CRT-motion-clarity-beating LCDs now, that you can purchase for prices as low as approximately 300 dollars. Both headsets produces pictures far more comfortable and easier on eyes than crappy Real3D cinema 3D glasses (just avoid the rollercoaster apps if you hate the dizzy stuff).

Zero blur, zero ghosting, zero crosstalk, zero double images, perfect CRT motion clarity can be found in those 2020-and-newer VR LCDs.

These even have 6x less motion blur (0.3ms MPRT) than OLED VR headsets (2ms MPRT blurring), such as the original Playstation VR or original Oculus Rift or original HTC Vive.

Yes, in the motion clarity department, these new VR LCDs beat OLED motion resolution by almost an order of magnitude. The blacks aren't as good as CRT yet (though I saw a FALD VR prototype using MicroLED backlights -- local dimming in VR!) but the motion resolution is simply superlative for LCD -- far better than even a 360Hz LCD in sample-and-hold mode.

Part of this is because of Talbot-Plateau's Law, a law of physics effect that bottlenecks OLED pixels severely. To be as good as a CRT, you need really brief flashes (less than 1ms). And you need lots of brightness in those short flashes. Unlike OLED direct pixels which often has difficulty safely reaching 1000nits without burn-in -- an LCD can outsource its light source to a heatsinked/watercooled LED backlight that can flash stadium bright like a CRT electron beam dot (CRTs do over 10,000 nits at the phosphor dot in high-speed video). So, that's why LCD VR has pulled way ahead of OLED VR, in motion resolution now.

And from lab tests, both Index VR LCD and Quest 2 VR LCD have a true real-world measured 0.3ms MPRT -- not manufacturer exaggerated MPRT or GtG numbers (the two different pixel response benchmarks). No GtG heatmap hotspots. No MPRT hotspots. Zero, nada, zilch, none, virtually perfect 256x256 heatmap. Many CRTs have phosphor decay fade longer than 0.3ms! And it really shows -- every CRT user that witnessed 2020-or-newer perfectly crosstalkless LCD VR -- now agrees that an extensively well-engineered LCD can out-do CRT in motion clarity.

They had to spend mondoo engineering money for VR because motion blur is a big headache/dizzy/nausea for a giant IMAX screen strapped to your face. The overkill work finally paid off in some of the cheapest CRT-motion-resolution beating LCDs. To match a Holodeck requires a display that doesn't add extra blurring above-and-beyond natural human vision, so a lot of engineering money is spent on making VR LCDs match closer to real life.

Indirectly I had a hand on steering the VR market in reducing motion blur -- see How Blur Busters Convinced Oculus Rift To Go Low Persistence. That was a long time ago -- back in the Kickstarter days where the Oculus Kickstarter had access to TestUFO six months before TestUFO launched publicly almost a decade ago!
 
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01011001

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Inventor of TestUFO here.

Just only saw this outdated information now.

Actually, I see thousands of displays. I've already seen some LCDs (such as brand new specially engineered VR LCDs) with less motion blur than CRT. Less than 1% of LCDs can do it, but it's doable with several tricks such as this one.

I've made many replies to a new thread, beginning with this useful one with lots of links to motion tests that helps towards better understanding how to engineer LCDs to have limitless motion clarity.

What you see in a three-figure price 144Hz and 240Hz gaming monitor market ($XXX) is not representative of the best I've seen in labs and niche LCDs, but some of the tech is finally filtering into VR headsets. Also, some LCDs (blue phase) have microsecond GtG response times.



FOR REAL? CAN IT BE?

D dark10x would be very happy to see this I bet
 
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Dave_at_Home

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One form is already on the market... Just purchase a Valve Index VR headset or a Quest 2 VR headset.

They are superlative CRT-motion-clarity-beating LCDs now, that you can purchase for prices as low as approximately 300 dollars. Both headsets produces pictures far more comfortable and easier on eyes than crappy Real3D cinema 3D glasses (just avoid the rollercoaster apps if you hate the dizzy stuff).

Zero blur, zero ghosting, zero crosstalk, zero double images, perfect CRT motion clarity can be found in those 2020-and-newer VR LCDs.

These even have 6x less motion blur (0.3ms MPRT) than OLED VR headsets (2ms MPRT blurring), such as the original Playstation VR or original Oculus Rift or original HTC Vive.

Yes, in the motion clarity department, these new VR LCDs beat OLED motion resolution by almost an order of magnitude. The blacks aren't as good as CRT yet (though I saw a FALD VR prototype using MicroLED backlights -- local dimming in VR!) but the motion resolution is simply superlative for LCD -- far better than even a 360Hz LCD in sample-and-hold mode.

Part of this is because of Talbot-Plateau's Law, a law of physics effect that bottlenecks OLED pixels severely. To be as good as a CRT, you need really brief flashes (less than 1ms). And you need lots of brightness in those short flashes. Unlike OLED direct pixels which often has difficulty safely reaching 1000nits without burn-in -- an LCD can outsource its light source to a heatsinked/watercooled LED backlight that can flash stadium bright like a CRT electron beam dot (CRTs do over 10,000 nits at the phosphor dot in high-speed video). So, that's why LCD VR has pulled way ahead of OLED VR, in motion resolution now.

And from lab tests, both Index VR LCD and Quest 2 VR LCD have a true real-world measured 0.3ms MPRT -- not manufacturer exaggerated MPRT or GtG numbers (the two different pixel response benchmarks). No GtG heatmap hotspots. No MPRT hotspots. Zero, nada, zilch, none, virtually perfect 256x256 heatmap. Many CRTs have phosphor decay fade longer than 0.3ms! And it really shows -- every CRT user that witnessed 2020-or-newer perfectly crosstalkless LCD VR -- now agrees that an extensively well-engineered LCD can out-do CRT in motion clarity.

They had to spend mondoo engineering money for VR because motion blur is a big headache/dizzy/nausea for a giant IMAX screen strapped to your face. The overkill work finally paid off in some of the cheapest CRT-motion-resolution beating LCDs. To match a Holodeck requires a display that doesn't add extra blurring above-and-beyond natural human vision, so a lot of engineering money is spent on making VR LCDs match closer to real life.

Indirectly I had a hand on steering the VR market in reducing motion blur -- see How Blur Busters Convinced Oculus Rift To Go Low Persistence. That was a long time ago -- back in the Kickstarter days where the Oculus Kickstarter had access to TestUFO six months before TestUFO launched publicly almost a decade ago!
Good to know they've solved that problem on the VR headset side of the equation. Wonder if Sony will do the same thing for their next VR headset :pie_thinking:

What about outside the VR headset market, though? I just don't see this stuff making it into the mainstream televisions/monitors. Unless you've seen stuff in the works...
 

hussar16

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OLED has not surpassed plasma in term of motion clarity and sharpness.oled without bfi looks about half as clear in motion as plasma. Oled with bfi is not worth it at all the low brightness ruins the pictureand that's thonly good part about oled