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It's been so many years and we still can't get rid of LCD ghosting

nkarafo

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No matter how good or expensive your brand new 2020 monitor/TV is, it's still not as good as any CRT. And that's all because of one thing, ghosting/blurring/sample and hold, whatever it's name is.

Basically what that means is, when an image is moving on a LCD, it gets blurred. On a CRT, however, it stays as sharp as when it was still. And the difference is so big that if someone demonstrate it to you (in case you forgot how good CRT motion is or you are too young to know) it completely ruins it for you.

I held my CRT TV and Monitor as much as i could, waiting for modern technology to finally get rid of this. As a result, i still had a CRT monitor for my PC until 2019 if you can believe it. I had people show up in my place wondering why am i still keeping that thing. I wish i could still use it but unfortunately, it died so i had to downgrade to a modern monitor. I got an expensive 240hz one because 60hz monitors are so nauseating to me, it's like i'm drunk the whole time. It's impossible to use it for everyday web browsing, i can't even read the scrolling text. 240hz at least cleans most of the ghosting and comes close to a CRT (but still not 100% there).

Even on a 240hz monitor though, i still can't get rid of the ghosting when i play 60fps content like older console games on emulators or modern games that i can't run faster than 60fps. Everything is still a blur fest.

What bothers me the most is that there isn't any improvement in the last, dunno, 10 years? I got a 2019 model 4K Samsung TV and it has the same amount of ghosting as my older TV from 2007. And the same amount is also present on my 240hz monitoer when displaying 60fps content. So after more than a decade there was no improvement on that front. All you can do is enable various tricks like "black frame insertion" or enable various smooth filters via hardware or software but all that come with side effects like artifacts, ruined colors and huge amounts of input lag. You can't even enable most of that stuff when using "Game mode" anyway.

So my question is, are we ever going to get rid of this in our lifetime or is it here to stay? Because it seems people in their 30s and 40s forgot how CRTs look and younger ones don't even know about this. Mainstream seems to be used to blurry moving images. :(
 

nkarafo

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Ips monitors have no ghosting. Atleast not mine.
They do. All LCD monitors and TVs do have it no matter the panel type. Your's too. If you had a CRT showing you a scrolling demo and the same one on your monitor to see the difference you would be surprised. I had numerous people telling me "mine doesn't have ghosting" until i demonstrated it to them.

We can. Black frame insertion at 240hz does the trick.
Black frame insertion requires 120hz to work for 60fps content. It works but it will also darken the colors to a point that it's hard to balance them.
 
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Rikkori

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If you want better motion you'll have to look at TVs.


Sadly it sounds like you're very sensitive to this issue so perhaps nothing will help.
 
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nkarafo

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If you want better motion you'll have to look at TVs.


Sadly it sounds like you're very sensitive to this issue so perhaps nothing will help.
Some TVs have various tricks to reduce ghosting but like i said, they come with side effects. Input lag being the most severe. At least on the TVs/monitors i ever tried myself. I'm searching for 10+ years and still haven't found anything that comes close to a cheap CRT monitor without exhibiting side effects that make it not worth it.


I see no ghosting in my monitor. It is a budget 350 bucks ASUS shit that I mostly use to play 360/emulated games with. That or I'm used to it.
You are just used to it.
 
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nkarafo

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It's very easy to see the issue for yourselves. Anyone who claims "i don't see it" you can do this simple test:

Load a 2D scrolling game, preferably an old one via an emulator or some other service. I recommend Sonic 1 for this. When the game loads and you see the graphics, stay still and look at the foreground. In Sonic, the foreground has this checkered texture pattern. Notice how sharp it is. Now move.... You will notice that the moving foreground isn't as sharp anymore while in motion. It gets blurred. And if you run fast enough you can hardly see any details on it.

That's what happens in all modern panels/monitors/TVs. On a CRT, the moving foreground stays as sharp as it was when it was still. Even at fast speeds you can still follow the foreground with your eyes and make out the sharp checkered texture pattern.

It was a given back in the day but now it looks amazing. If you see it, you won't be able to unsee it and i think you are lucky if you haven't seen a CRT for a while.
 
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Ulysses 31

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It's very easy to see the issue for yourselves. Anyone who claims "i don't see it" you can do this simple test:

Load a 2D scrolling game, preferably an old one via an emulator or some other service. I recommend Sonic 1 for this. When the game loads and you see the graphics, stay still and look at the foreground. In Sonic, the foreground has this checkered blocky pattern. Notice how sharp it is. Now move.... You will notice that the moving foreground isn't as sharp anymore. It gets blurred.

That's what happens in all modern panels/monitors/TVs. On a CRT, the moving foregrouns stays as sharp as it was when it was still.
Sounds more like you're talking about motion resolution than ghosting. Yeah, modern tech still lags a bit behind CRT and Plasma.

With ghosting I think of trails you can see behind a moving mouse cursor.
 
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nkarafo

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I still have a few CRTs for this very reason. Most people are still giving them away / trashing them. But they aren't perfect. Geometry and color tone can be a pain if you're not used to fiddling with it.
CRTs have their own problems. Size and weight being the most popular. There's also some amount of flickering when running 60hz/fps content like the Sonic game i mentioned. But the graphics are so sharp that i would gladly take it. At 75/85 hz the flickering isn't noticeable anymore and it becomes a joy to use for browsing the internet. Enable Smooth scrolling on your browser and you can clearly read the text while it's scrolling downwards. It's so nice. You can't do this with a regular 60hz LCD monitor, even at 144hz the text is still too blurry. Only at 240hz i feel comfortable and even then i can see some ghosting left with black text on white background (which is why i only use dark themes when available).

Sounds more like you're talking about motion resolution than ghosting. Yeah, modern tech still lags a bit behind CRT and Plasma.

With ghosting I think of trails you can see behind a moving mouse cursor.
You are probably right.
 
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-Arcadia-

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I'd like to see this fixed, but even the hardest of the hardcore gamers only realized this was a thing when DF started talking about it this year.

It's not a mainstream conversation (at least yet), and barely anyone has noticed. The fact that the upgrade to LCDs and HDTVs largely happened at the same time, seems to have masked it well, and now nobody even remembers what things looked like.
 

The_Mike

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Higher framerate monitors and gsync monitors doesn't suffer from this really.

TVs is another ballpark though because of they are so big.
 

nkarafo

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Higher framerate monitors and gsync monitors doesn't suffer from this really.
They do. I know because i have one. 240hz DELL Alienware model.

Though, if you take 100% advantage of them, it does help reducing the problem.

Issue is, if you run 60fps content with those, they still look as bad as any 60hz monitor.

Also, 144hz is too low. In order to get close to a CRT, you need 240hz (fully utilized) minimum. That will still get you some blurring leftovers but it will feel as clear as a CRT most of the time. In some extreme cases ghosting/blurring is still very noticeable (black text on white background + smooth scrolling). I would assume 360hz/fps should be enough to bring a LCD monitor at the exact same level as a CRT.
 
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diffusionx

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LCD has had the same problems it had 15 years ago as it started to go mainstream. Manufacturers just added a bunch of terrible gimmicks and processing, which just exacerbate other issues (like input lag). CRT is simply a superior technology for displaying stuff on a screen. I have more hope that LCD will get replaced than I do these issues will go away for good.
 
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Soodanim

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Does anyone still make CRTs? The market must be very small if there is one (nearly if not actually custom territory).

For the ghosting issue, I feel you. I use a 144hz monitor as my main and a 60hz as my backup. I scrolled some text on the 60hz earlier and remembered how bad it is. The 144hz with the right overdrive setting is so much better. I like to use ULMB (AOC's BFI) when I can hit a solid 120fps, but like you say the brightness takes a dip. Worth it, though. It's been so long that I don't remember exactly what CRTs are like, but it's a shame there's no modern equivalent that's broken through. The world's competitive scenes alone would drive sales on that.
 

Kuranghi

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No matter how good or expensive your brand new 2020 monitor/TV is, it's still not as good as any CRT. And that's all because of one thing, ghosting/blurring/sample and hold, whatever it's name is.

Basically what that means is, when an image is moving on a LCD, it gets blurred. On a CRT, however, it stays as sharp as when it was still. And the difference is so big that if someone demonstrate it to you (in case you forgot how good CRT motion is or you are too young to know) it completely ruins it for you.

I held my CRT TV and Monitor as much as i could, waiting for modern technology to finally get rid of this. As a result, i still had a CRT monitor for my PC until 2019 if you can believe it. I had people show up in my place wondering why am i still keeping that thing. I wish i could still use it but unfortunately, it died so i had to downgrade to a modern monitor. I got an expensive 240hz one because 60hz monitors are so nauseating to me, it's like i'm drunk the whole time. It's impossible to use it for everyday web browsing, i can't even read the scrolling text. 240hz at least cleans most of the ghosting and comes close to a CRT (but still not 100% there).

Even on a 240hz monitor though, i still can't get rid of the ghosting when i play 60fps content like older console games on emulators or modern games that i can't run faster than 60fps. Everything is still a blur fest.

What bothers me the most is that there isn't any improvement in the last, dunno, 10 years? I got a 2019 model 4K Samsung TV and it has the same amount of ghosting as my older TV from 2007. And the same amount is also present on my 240hz monitoer when displaying 60fps content. So after more than a decade there was no improvement on that front. All you can do is enable various tricks like "black frame insertion" or enable various smooth filters via hardware or software but all that come with side effects like artifacts, ruined colors and huge amounts of input lag. You can't even enable most of that stuff when using "Game mode" anyway.

So my question is, are we ever going to get rid of this in our lifetime or is it here to stay? Because it seems people in their 30s and 40s forgot how CRTs look and younger ones don't even know about this. Mainstream seems to be used to blurry moving images. :(

OLED? It has 0.4ms response times, the newer ones have BFI as well to help make it even cleaner. I take it you fear burn-in? Pixel-showing games look amazeballs on OLED, no smearing. But I guess it has to 60hz to not have ghosting to an extent.

You'd hate my TV, it has a 36ms response time haha. I love the beast though. *strokes champagne gold trim*
 
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Ulysses 31

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OLED? It has 0.4ms response times, the newer ones have BFI as well to help make it even cleaner. I take it you fear burn-in? Pixel-showing games look amazeballs on OLED, no smearing. But I guess it has to 60hz to not have ghosting to an extent.
Unfortunately, BFI on OLEDs dims the already not so great brightness to a degree that I stay away from it unlike with QLEDs. 👀
 
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deriks

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I guess it's because today's TVs and monitors are basically another computer. They have CPU, memory and stuff... CRTs uses just a crazy fast ray that produces the picture.

But to answer your question, I really doubt we will see CRTs again. Maybe another thing that surpasses Metal Gear, but not CRTs.
 
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Kuranghi

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Unfortunately, BFI on OLEDs dims the already not to great brightness to a degree that I stay away from it unlike with QLEDs. 👀

This is true mate, I don't like OLED as much due to high PRT, lower APL/peak brightness.

Thats why I have a ZD9/Z9D. Its my child because its 1800 nits with ~646 dimming zones and its professionally calibrated by Vincent Teoh.

My mate just got a GZ2000 (Smashed his AF9 which is... holy fuck please don't do that guys... what a waste) so hopefully he'll have Vincent back to calibrate that next year so I can bother him again, last time we talked about the (supposedly, definitely not probably ha) 10000-nit Sony prototype they had at CES 2019, it was next to a ZD9 and it made it look "crap" according to Vinny :pie_kfwce:
 

Happosai

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No matter how good or expensive your brand new 2020 monitor/TV is, it's still not as good as any CRT. And that's all because of one thing, ghosting/blurring/sample and hold, whatever it's name is.

Basically what that means is, when an image is moving on a LCD, it gets blurred. On a CRT, however, it stays as sharp as when it was still. And the difference is so big that if someone demonstrate it to you (in case you forgot how good CRT motion is or you are too young to know) it completely ruins it for you.

I held my CRT TV and Monitor as much as i could, waiting for modern technology to finally get rid of this. As a result, i still had a CRT monitor for my PC until 2019 if you can believe it. I had people show up in my place wondering why am i still keeping that thing. I wish i could still use it but unfortunately, it died so i had to downgrade to a modern monitor. I got an expensive 240hz one because 60hz monitors are so nauseating to me, it's like i'm drunk the whole time. It's impossible to use it for everyday web browsing, i can't even read the scrolling text. 240hz at least cleans most of the ghosting and comes close to a CRT (but still not 100% there).

Even on a 240hz monitor though, i still can't get rid of the ghosting when i play 60fps content like older console games on emulators or modern games that i can't run faster than 60fps. Everything is still a blur fest.

What bothers me the most is that there isn't any improvement in the last, dunno, 10 years? I got a 2019 model 4K Samsung TV and it has the same amount of ghosting as my older TV from 2007. And the same amount is also present on my 240hz monitoer when displaying 60fps content. So after more than a decade there was no improvement on that front. All you can do is enable various tricks like "black frame insertion" or enable various smooth filters via hardware or software but all that come with side effects like artifacts, ruined colors and huge amounts of input lag. You can't even enable most of that stuff when using "Game mode" anyway.

So my question is, are we ever going to get rid of this in our lifetime or is it here to stay? Because it seems people in their 30s and 40s forgot how CRTs look and younger ones don't even know about this. Mainstream seems to be used to blurry moving images. :(
I've noticed this over the past 12-or-so years, too. You know, before CRT tvs left the market -- there was a small push to get them widescreen at least. I'm not talking about the projection big screens but there were many companies (Samsung, JVC, Sony, etc) making widescreen CRT tvs. No HD, but it was clear imagine without HD. I've played my Wii on a CRT only as it doesn't come through as clear on the newer tvs. I noticed a limitation with the widescreen CRT tvs; they were pushing like 32" maximum for the screens. Imagine something 64-inches would be impossible to transport and probably weigh as much as a Honda Fit. Better times, mate.


 
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Kuranghi

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Wasnt there a crazy idea for CRTs that basically had a tiny CRT for each pixel or some madness? I read this recently but now can't find it. My google-fu has failed.
 
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Hostile_18

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Black frame insertion? Absolutely not.

I love my OLED. Never noticed a problem, but I'm certainly not going to go looking for one. Once you see it likely you can not un-see it.
 

Ulysses 31

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Black frame insertion? Absolutely not.

I love my OLED. Never noticed a problem, but I'm certainly not going to go looking for one. Once you see it likely you can not un-see it.
But if you won't see the flaws of the tech, how can you really look forward to the better tech? :lollipop_grinning:
 
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Hostile_18

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But if you won't see the flaws of the tech, how can you really look forward to the better tech? :lollipop_grinning:

I spent alot of money on my tv and surround sound. I've never seen a dead/stuck pixel either, but I'm not going to load up test slides haha 😉.
 

NeoIkaruGAF

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Yeah, all these years I had a plasma TV and never used LCD screens larger than 20”, and that only for PC use. When I bought a 55” OLED TV the problems woth motion became immediately apparent.

Unfortunately LCDs were the perfect storm. Much lighter and less frail than plasma, available in smaller sizes (in the early 2000s even 37” looked impossibly huge to most people, lol), stupidly bright, no image retention, and less expensive than any other alternative. Why would anyone buy a 32” CRT when they could get a new flashy LCD HDTV that weighted 5 times less and was probably the same price, if not cheaper?

The entire history of video is proof that motion is the least important part of visual perception for most people. The first video recordings had abysmal framerate, yet people found those real enough. Cinema is still 24fps. Few gamers care about framerate even today, let alone in the early 3D era when sub-30fps was perfectly acceptable. And many people don’t seem to notice their TV has the soap opera effect on.

There’s simply nothing to match the motion clarity of CRTs. Try playing a game like Metroid Prime on a modern screen, then play it on a CRT and the smoothness and clarity is unbelievable.
 

Oppoi

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We can. Black frame insertion at 240hz does the trick.

Yes! I used to own the Eizo Foris 240hz monitor and it was pure magic.


The pupils of the martians eyes were pixel sharp on that old monitor. On my new monitor I can barely see that it has three eyes...
 

Free will knight

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I read that Destiny's HUD was a plasma killer. :lollipop_grinning: :lollipop_grinning: :lollipop_grinning:
Why did you have to remind me it took about 6-9 months after not playing destiny to get rid of that super bad image retention. Still using my Panasonic plasma likely won't change it until micoLED TVs become mainstream or it stops working.
 

nkarafo

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Yes! I used to own the Eizo Foris 240hz monitor and it was pure magic.


The pupils of the martians eyes were pixel sharp on that old monitor. On my new monitor I can barely see that it has three eyes...
Yeah, even on my 240hz monitor (that doesn't have any motion clarity enchantments built in) i can barely see the 3 eyes. I have to slow down to 360/480 pixels/sec speed to notice for sure.

Edit: That Eizo monitor sounds like a dream. Not "true" 240hz since it uses half of that to remove blurring but 120hz with no blurring sounds amazing. Didn't the black frame insertion reduce the screen's brightness? Software solution do have that issue.
 
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Andodalf

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It’s just something inherent in the technology no? I don’t think we’ll be rid of it till we’re rid of LCD
 
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rofif

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Yes! I used to own the Eizo Foris 240hz monitor and it was pure magic.


The pupils of the martians eyes were pixel sharp on that old monitor. On my new monitor I can barely see that it has three eyes...
yeah. I've had 240hz gsync tn montior (the first one) aoc ag251fg and it was great in motion but not great otherwise... and I play mostly single player and souls games so 4k 60 ips with freesync is my preference
 
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RNG

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Yeah they are still the king of no motion blur. I was blown away when I set up my old el cheapo Dell CRT monitor that was sitting in the basement and using TestUFO. That little space alien was perfectly 1:1 while scrolling left to right.
 
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Rikkori

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Some TVs have various tricks to reduce ghosting but like i said, they come with side effects. Input lag being the most severe. At least on the TVs/monitors i ever tried myself. I'm searching for 10+ years and still haven't found anything that comes close to a cheap CRT monitor without exhibiting side effects that make it not worth it.
BFI adds enormous input-lag, so it works well for a non-interactive content like TV and movies, but for gaming it's obviously a no-go.

All false. Do your research! You need to judge the sets on an individual basis, and Sony in particular sees no such issues unless you completely max out both smoothness & clearness, which are the non-ideal settings levels anyway. No extra input lag, no shitty artifacts.

 

w92kp

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are we ever going to get rid of this in our lifetime?

It appears that you are unaware of strobed display modes. They have been available for quite a while now. Your 240hz monitor might even have such a mode. It won't look exactly like a CRT, but it will give you blur free motion. I've been using an ASUS PG258Q and have enjoyed blur free gaming anywhere between 60-144fps for a number of years now.

 

Oppoi

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It appears that you are unaware of strobed display modes. They have been available for quite a while now. Your 240hz monitor might even have such a mode. It won't look exactly like a CRT, but it will give you blur free motion. I've been using an ASUS PG258Q and have enjoyed blur free gaming anywhere between 60-144fps for a number of years now.


I just tried the ULMB mode on my 165hz monitor and while it does minimize the smearing the ghosting is still there in the form of a severe corona effect.
 

hussar16

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No matter how good or expensive your brand new 2020 monitor/TV is, it's still not as good as any CRT. And that's all because of one thing, ghosting/blurring/sample and hold, whatever it's name is.

Basically what that means is, when an image is moving on a LCD, it gets blurred. On a CRT, however, it stays as sharp as when it was still. And the difference is so big that if someone demonstrate it to you (in case you forgot how good CRT motion is or you are too young to know) it completely ruins it for you.

I held my CRT TV and Monitor as much as i could, waiting for modern technology to finally get rid of this. As a result, i still had a CRT monitor for my PC until 2019 if you can believe it. I had people show up in my place wondering why am i still keeping that thing. I wish i could still use it but unfortunately, it died so i had to downgrade to a modern monitor. I got an expensive 240hz one because 60hz monitors are so nauseating to me, it's like i'm drunk the whole time. It's impossible to use it for everyday web browsing, i can't even read the scrolling text. 240hz at least cleans most of the ghosting and comes close to a CRT (but still not 100% there).

Even on a 240hz monitor though, i still can't get rid of the ghosting when i play 60fps content like older console games on emulators or modern games that i can't run faster than 60fps. Everything is still a blur fest.

What bothers me the most is that there isn't any improvement in the last, dunno, 10 years? I got a 2019 model 4K Samsung TV and it has the same amount of ghosting as my older TV from 2007. And the same amount is also present on my 240hz monitoer when displaying 60fps content. So after more than a decade there was no improvement on that front. All you can do is enable various tricks like "black frame insertion" or enable various smooth filters via hardware or software but all that come with side effects like artifacts, ruined colors and huge amounts of input lag. You can't even enable most of that stuff when using "Game mode" anyway.

So my question is, are we ever going to get rid of this in our lifetime or is it here to stay? Because it seems people in their 30s and 40s forgot how CRTs look and younger ones don't even know about this. Mainstream seems to be used to blurry moving images. :(

ive been telling everyone ,the picture of your tv doesn not matter ,ive bought tvs worth thousands and picture movement clarity is most important ,Plasma has a huge advantage over even oleds of tv. crt for pc and plasma for tv are still king
 

nkarafo

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It appears that you are unaware of strobed display modes. They have been available for quite a while now. Your 240hz monitor might even have such a mode. It won't look exactly like a CRT, but it will give you blur free motion. I've been using an ASUS PG258Q and have enjoyed blur free gaming anywhere between 60-144fps for a number of years now.

I'm aware of it's existence but i never managed to test it myself. My monitor doesn't have it (it's the freesync model, not the Gsync). But from what i found online, it looks like the results vary.
 
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Dave_at_Home

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You're never going to get rid of motion blur on LCD. It's just inherit to the sample and hold tech. You can improve it for sure, but it will always remain. It's why even OLED has poor motion resolution. Granted, it has super fast pixel response time, but it's still sample and hold. You're just gonna have to wait for either self-emitting QLED, or micro-LED.
 

S0ULZB0URNE

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CRT it's grey blacks and flickering images(with interlaced material) can't hold a candle to the beauty that is a nice FALD LED/LCD.
 

Rentahamster

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No matter how good or expensive your brand new 2020 monitor/TV is, it's still not as good as any CRT. And that's all because of one thing, ghosting/blurring/sample and hold, whatever it's name is.

Basically what that means is, when an image is moving on a LCD, it gets blurred. On a CRT, however, it stays as sharp as when it was still. And the difference is so big that if someone demonstrate it to you (in case you forgot how good CRT motion is or you are too young to know) it completely ruins it for you.

I held my CRT TV and Monitor as much as i could, waiting for modern technology to finally get rid of this. As a result, i still had a CRT monitor for my PC until 2019 if you can believe it. I had people show up in my place wondering why am i still keeping that thing. I wish i could still use it but unfortunately, it died so i had to downgrade to a modern monitor. I got an expensive 240hz one because 60hz monitors are so nauseating to me, it's like i'm drunk the whole time. It's impossible to use it for everyday web browsing, i can't even read the scrolling text. 240hz at least cleans most of the ghosting and comes close to a CRT (but still not 100% there).

Even on a 240hz monitor though, i still can't get rid of the ghosting when i play 60fps content like older console games on emulators or modern games that i can't run faster than 60fps. Everything is still a blur fest.

What bothers me the most is that there isn't any improvement in the last, dunno, 10 years? I got a 2019 model 4K Samsung TV and it has the same amount of ghosting as my older TV from 2007. And the same amount is also present on my 240hz monitoer when displaying 60fps content. So after more than a decade there was no improvement on that front. All you can do is enable various tricks like "black frame insertion" or enable various smooth filters via hardware or software but all that come with side effects like artifacts, ruined colors and huge amounts of input lag. You can't even enable most of that stuff when using "Game mode" anyway.

So my question is, are we ever going to get rid of this in our lifetime or is it here to stay? Because it seems people in their 30s and 40s forgot how CRTs look and younger ones don't even know about this. Mainstream seems to be used to blurry moving images. :(