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[goldenpp72]

Just like there was GameCube hate from the media or Dreamcast hate for the media or Xbox 1 hate from the media or just convinenet hate for any system that wasn't in first place.

PS3 guys really need to stop flogging this idea because it makes you look crazy.

I sure don't recall the saturn ever getting hate though, third place is the place to be.

ps3 is only a failure in terms of marketshare, it's a fun system with a complete set of stable hardware, but really, the bar of success is and will likely always be how much it sells, this is why wii is jerked off as the supreme by so many sites.

 

[RSTEIN]

And no, the Gamecube was not a failure. It had some amazing games and made many people happy. You could put its sell thru numbers up against Ps2 and on those terms call it significantly less successful than the PS2...but even then, I would not call it a failure.

I'm not sure how you're missing the point when you've come to this conclusion.

1) The PS3 is all doom and gloom. Sony's stock is off 70% percent since the beginning of 2008. PS3 software can't find a stable foothold in monthly top-20 charts (registering only 1 or 2 titles in the past 3 months). It is being trounced in the US and, according to various figures, is being beaten or on par with the 360 in Europe. Japan is a disaster for both. Sony can't lower the price in the near term. Sony HQ can't spend on marketing. Sony said "next gen starts when we say it does." Well, with a statement like that you can't conclude they expected to be in a distant third in 2009. To go from pure market domination to third is a disaster, no matter how you slice it.

2) The software is brilliant and arguable better than both the 360 and Wii. Looking at metacritic or gamerankings, it clearly has the best software and best exclusives. The hardware itself is way ahead of the 360. It has free online gaming. It's a beast of a console.

Everyone understands this! This is the whole point! A console can "make many people happy" and still be a disaster. My 32X made me very happy. Nobody is saying otherwise. The journalist was right to ask about the "doom and gloom" because that's the reality - FOR SONY CORP. For us gamers, it couldn't be better.

 

[BobsRevenge]

PS1 and PS2 were successes because they were number one, now the PS3 is still a success despite being #3. K got it. Just want to see the PR releases boasting about the #3 position soon!

They were successful because they were very profitable, not because they were number one. Being number one certainly helped though.

If the PS3 is profitable by the end of all this it will be a success in that way.

 

[tfur]

It read like something you would see in a Bill O'Reilly piece... or some other FOX new piece... :lol

 

[dfyb]

Holy shit. How are people continuing to defend this?

Asking loaded questions is not professional. The writer basically turned PS3-trashing statements into questions just to see if Jaffe would cave at all. He's not looking for any new info, basically just asking someone if it sucks that they're aren't #1.

You could get a deeper response at a rock concert when the singer yells 'Are you ready to rock?'

exactly. the writer's fishing for hot quotes he can throw in a controversial headline. 'david jaffe talks doom and gloom' etc.

i'm amazed at how twisted the popular view here on neoGAF is. these questions aren't neutral -- they are all one sided questions, or in other words, they show a clear bias. PS3 isn't winning but it is hardly failing. the great game output is only increasing. a game console fails when it ceases to output good games.

 

[Flachmatuch]

Like? The only thing that'll turn the tide is a sizable price drop and there hasn't been any word of one yet.

And yes, the Gamecube was a failure. It only sold 21 million. That sucks for a console. Doesn't mean it was bad but it was a failure.

If Nintendo's main goal was to make money with it, it was not a failure. Just like if MS' main goal with the Xbox was to get some marketshare and brand recognition, it wasn't a failure. The 360, even if it isn't going to be profitable overall, will probably accomplish MS' long term goals, so it's not a failure. On the other hand, I have no idea what goals Sony had with the PS3 (Bluray?) that couldn't be considered a failure :-D

The questions are amateurish and will piss people off, but if someone's interested in how the PS3 went so wrong (which it did, looking at the significant yoy sales drop eg. - assuming that Sony's goal is to make money and not "make a few million gamers happy" :-D), the areas the questions touch are actually pretty much ok. I also agree that the interviewer should also be asking about what he thinks the future holds, will it get better or worse, because that'd give context to his opinion on the negative stuff and his opinion would not be represented properly.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

let teh gamez begins

 

[Vinci]

Than make an article about how the Wii is owning every system.

The PS3 is losing, but the 360 is losing as well. It's cheaper than the Wii, has an far far better selection of games, has the best online and a ton of other 'best of the three' things. And it still can't touch the Wii's sales.

The Wii's insane popularity is an article a Microsoft employee could write, a article about Sony's failure is not.

A Microsoft employee would consider the 360 a total success due to the expectations for the system, which had nothing to do with profit.

 

[Andronicus]

i suggest people watch Jaffe's video before they start saying stupid shit

 

[schuelma]

PS3 isn't winning but it is hardly failing. the great game output is only increasing.

And that is absolutely not the point of this forthcoming article or any other article from the mainstream press talking about PS3 or Wii, etc.

 

[Puck]

blogs should be banned!!!

 

[ZeoVGM]

Sorry, I just don't agree with you Zenith. It's not mostly gloom and doom. I have all three systems and think the PS3 is a great system and will get even better as it goes along. My opinion, you get to have your own.

I like you David, but you're changing the topic to defend the system. It's not about your opinion on the games, which is fine. There are obviously good games. It IS a GOOD system and it WILL get better.

The topic at hand, however, is the success of the system. Not the games. And it IS mostly gloom and doom for the system in terms of success and how it is viewed by the public. No one talks about PlayStation anymore. It's Xbox and Wii.

 

[J-Rzez]

Show me unbiased journalism.

You're not going to find that anywhere especially in the videogame industry. From reviewers to analysts to news reporters, this industry seems to be heavily biased, more so than any other.

To be honest David, you shouldn't be shocked about those questions considering the source. It's fine to acknowledge some of them, but they're basically trying to put together a piece to try and write off the PS3 and relay it to readers. They're overlooking the fact that while the machine is in 3rd place as it stands right now, there's a lot of potentially killer-apps on the way due to their stable of exclusive devs. They also probably wouldn't like to hear how the PS3 and 360 sold neck and neck last year either, so that would make the 360 a failure as well by their reasoning.

 

[Stoney Mason]

totally depends on your standards. the GameCube was profitable for Nintendo. lost bragging right from doing badly in the console war aside, i don't see how you can say that the console was unquestionably a failure given that.

it lost market share, yes. it tarnished their image a little, yes. it failed in some ways, but not all ways. same with the PS3.

the GameCube and PS3 failed by fanboy standards, but personally i don't put much stock in those.

If you are the top of the market in a dominant position and your next product isn't at the top of the market then clearly you're next product is not as successful as the last product. That is the story. Same reason why people harp on why Vista stinks as a product for Microsoft.

In what measure is the PS3 currently more successful than the PS2 at the moment relative to profit, or market share?

 

[Forsete]

let teh gamez begins

We've hit a new low.

Edit: Wii-fantard comics in the album, what a surprise. :lol

 

[JohnsonUT]

How awesome is the PS3?

 

[watership]

Of course it was biased, but that's nothing new at all.

The way I see it is that not only are hardcore fans overly defensive about the ps3 not performing well, but the developers are too. Mainstream journalism will always cheer the winner and slag the losers and that's not going to change. It's just that Jaffe experiencing the other side this time.

EDIT: The ps3 is not a loser. I'm just saying that the mainstream media needs to pick winners and losers.

 

[CosmicGroinPull]

Nah, jaffe's right.

"Hey Sony employee/partner, why is the PS3 so shit and Sony so stupid, ha ha ha!"

I hope jaffe's rebuttal e-mail had something to do with his/her mother's twat.

Dammit, I was gonna say that. Not as well as you put it, but it had jaffe and the writer's mother in it.

 

[goldenpp72]

We've hit a new low.

Not until uncharted 2, secret ps3 game and god of war 3 are put on it.

 

[MotherFan]

Well wait a second- I never said the questions themselves were not valid questions. I also said in my video post that someone writing an article ABOUT the current state of the PS3 was/is fair game (warts and all).

What I am saying is: it seems to me that this article is already written and he is just looking for someone to justify his already decided upon opinion so he can attribute some quotes to someone other than himself.

And it is possible that all the negative questions about Sony came to me and the positive ones came to someone else.

But the PS3 is not dead and it's not a failure and it's not doomed. It may NEVER get out of third place. So in the mind of a narrow minded fanboy who actually cares who 'wins' a stupid ass 'console war', sure, go ahead and think that way. But for a pro journalist- or just an adult with a functioning brain- to think the machine is dead because it is in last place?!? That's pretty bush league.

And so I am FINE with these questions if they had been balanced with questions about what the PS3 had done right (i.e. it's almost profitable even tho it's $200 bucks MORE than 360 and we are in a shit economy...and compared to the 360, when you take the significant price point variance into consideration, it's not getting its ass kicked) and what the 360 has done wrong (red ring; hd-dvd misstep). But they were not. They seemed to me like a 'let's bash the PS3' piece and that is why I was asking if you all agreed or not.

And as I said, I could be wrong in thinking this is biased. But don't knee jerk and assume I am bashing these questions cause I don't want them asked. I repeat: they are some valid questions in there and I would love to read the answers as well to a few of them.

David

ps. and fuck you regarding the 'he's playing the wait till X comes out' card...fuck you man. KZ2, GOW3, UNCHARTED 2, MLB09, HEAVY RAIN, GT...and yes, MY fucking game?!? I don't give a shit if Sony drops behind the fucking Phantom in the 'console war'...but to deny that those are some exciting exclusives is asinine. Just like to deny that Msoft has a killer first party stable with GOW, HALO, FABLE,et all is also asinine. To you I say:

'oooh, hey check that out! It's a pickle that's been dipped in hydrochloric acid! Sweet! Do me a favor and ram that motherfucker right up your ass, k?'

Its about why it is failing most likely. They are wondering why they lost marketshare, not if those games are going to be good. They are wondering why this is a financial fiasco compared to last generation.

Also, I can't believe someone who is professional would talk like this in a public setting having to do with his industry. If the industry is led by such immaturity it is no wonder it is losing so much money.

 

[davidjaffe]

Oh two more things...ok, three:

#1- Regarding why did I even mention the 360 when the questions don't. Uhm, WHY?!? Cause the guy writing the fucking article is getting paid BY MICROSOFT (who makes the 360)! Don't you think that's kind of , you know ,relevant?

#2- Regarding 'wait for...' needing more justification on my part so it doesn't come across like a fanboy. This is NEOGAF, not BETTER HOMES AND GARDEN'S FORUMS...don't you think most folks here are already very aware of the value and/or lack of value of those titles? You think me talking about the amazing graphics in KILLZONE 2 or the stunning combat and story telling in GOW 3 or the fact that MLB 09 is really- to most baseball fans- the only game in town anymore, going to help? Minds are made up. Plus, I assumed since I named GEARS OF WAR 2 my favorite game of the year last year and play my Wii with my kids ALL time time (and make this clear so folks KNOW I am not biased in most of my posts on these sorts of topics), that would be enough to make it clear I was not a raging fanboy.

#3- Regarding CALM DOWN SPAZ: Oh go fuck yourself. First off, because you are using the word SPAZ, I have to assume you are probably no older than 12, which makes me feel kind of stupid even defending myself to you. So I'll stop.

Ok, NOW I really am going back to work

David

 

[Stoney Mason]

I sure don't recall the saturn ever getting hate though, third place is the place to be.

ps3 is only a failure in terms of marketshare, it's a fun system with a complete set of stable hardware, but really, the bar of success is and will likely always be how much it sells, this is why wii is jerked off as the supreme by so many sites.

Because most of these sites are covering what the majority of people have and the majority of people are playing and what is selling/making the most profit. The purpose of wider journalism isn't to just celebrate games like a site like IGN is trying to do. A story is allowed to have an angle.

 

[Flachmatuch]

Seems like fair questions to me. The ps3 so far is a financial failure, it has low market share and none of those games are going to turn it around. Sony is a company that went from far in first place to dead last. The story is about why that is.

The topic of the questions is fine, the questions themselves would only be fine on GAF or in person, not in an interview. Really, that's all, completely unprofessional. The questions could have been phrased so as not to piss him off (although I agree that a question about the future of the console would have been in order for him to be able to present a more complete opinion). He doesn't get a chance to say what he really wants to say about the current situation and that's really crap.

 

[davidjaffe]

A Microsoft employee would consider the 360 a total success due to the expectations for the system, which had nothing to do with profit.

Right, assuming it wasn't one of the thousands of Msoft employees laid off last month because the company- including the games division- had not met sales expectations, then yes, you are probably correct.

 

[Forsete]

Not until uncharted 2, secret ps3 game and god of war 3 are put on it.

This year it isnt PS3 that needs saving.. games wise. :lol

 

[VALIS]

If the PS3 was doing great and was in first place, and this guy came to Jaffe with a bunch of questions asking why the PS3 was such a success, would this also be bias?

Wow.

 

[colinp]

I like how we make assumptions about the article based on the questions that one particular recipient got, not knowing how many others were e-mailed and what other questions may have been asked to get to this point.

 

[sloppyjoe_gamer]

I like you David, but you're changing the topic to defend the system. It's not about your opinion on the games, which is fine. There are obviously good games. It IS a GOOD system and it WILL get better.

The topic at hand, however, is the success of the system. Not the games. And it IS mostly gloom and doom for the system in terms of success and how it is viewed by the public. No one talks about PlayStation anymore. It's Xbox and Wii.

Certain cliques on GAF, and your group of friends would hardly qualify you to say that "noone" talks about it.

 

[Threi]

12-year-olds use the word spaz?

 

[Zoe]

If the PS3 was doing great and was in first place, and this guy came to Jaffe with a bunch of questions asking why the PS3 was such a success, would this also be bias?

Yes:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=346279

 

[Zenith]

Sorry, I just don't agree with you Zenith. It's not mostly gloom and doom. I have all three systems and think the PS3 is a great system and will get even better as it goes along. My opinion, you get to have your own.

Did Sony plan for it to sell so low? No. So by their own standards it is a failure.

Also- I think it laughable that you ever thought I had a cool card. I am posting on a video game message board during my lunch break. As- it seems- are you. Perhaps a thorough search of the word 'cool' is in order for you.

It's evening but I would post all day every day on GAF if I could. and don't pretend you were never "cool". People including myself lauded you for your "NERD RAGE" schtick. look at your tag. by internet standards people here considered you cool for whatever it was worth. it's rather insulting for you to paint everyone who posts on GAF as a loser.

And the Wii is a winner in many respects.

So if everything from the Wii at the very top to the Gamecube at the bottom is "not a failure" then what the hell is? Nintendo themselves said the GC failed. Pretending there is no loser in this business is, well, dumb.

He wasn't speaking from Nintendo's perspective.

Ninty's perspective is the business perspective which is what this article, and I thought this debate, was about.

 

[Stoney Mason]

If the PS3 was doing great and was in first place, and this guy came to Jaffe with a bunch of questions asking why the PS3 was such a success, would this also be bias?

Wow.

Exactly. And that's essentially the same sort of article we got for the entire last two generations because of the obvious and tangible success and impact of the playstation brand. Now that the success level is different the story will of course be different. Which is the entire point.

 

[BobsRevenge]

Its about why it is failing most likely. They are wondering why they lost marketshare, not if those games are going to be good. They are wondering why this is a financial fiasco compared to last generation.

Also, I can't believe someone who is professional would talk like this in a public setting having to do with his industry. If the industry is led by such immaturity it is no wonder it is losing so much money.

I don't understand why Jaffe can't speak his mind. I think that is bullshit. Why should he wear those chains? He didn't take anything too far here.

 

[Testicular Sound Express]

let teh gamez begins

oh lawd :lol

 

[Flachmatuch]

http://wasteddomain.com/gallery/d/568-1/picard-sigh.jpg

Certain cliques on GAF, and your group of friends would hardly qualify you to say that "noone" talks about it.

You're too quick to use this pic...what he said is just a figurative way of saying the Playstation is losing "mindshare". Which is pretty much what's happening.

 

[szaromir]

Isn't that the Baroness from the new G.I. Joe movie?

Sadly she's the only recognizable character in the film besides the ninjas...

Sienna Miller

Thanks guys.

 

[HocusPocus]

Soldier on for your console Jaffe. You can either answer the questions or not. Getting tired of your whining to be honest.

 

[krypt0nian]

God its fun watching gaming GAF spin up like a bunch of loons.

 

[Meier]

All of the questions from the journalist seem like well-reasoned, rational and realistic questions. They hit the nail right on the head on essentially all of them.

Seeing Jaffe's follow-up post in the thread -- yes, the PS3 is a massive failure. Is it dead? Not yet (although it will likely never get out of 3rd place), but to state that it isn't a failure is incorrect. It's a larger failure than the N64 or the GameCube combined.

 

[Coverly]

This is NEOGAF, not BETTER HOMES AND GARDEN'S FORUMS

:lol

 

[sloppyjoe_gamer]

You're too quick to use this pic...what he said is just a figurative way of saying the Playstation is losing "mindshare". Which is pretty much what's happening.

Oh right....sorry guy, I misunderstood what you were saying.

 

[LCfiner]

I found the questions pretty valid considering that the PS3 is a far cry from the success of the PS1 and PS2.

Of course it's a disappointment from a business perspective. Sony priced themselves out of the game and made some poor decisions (assuming they wanted PS2 levels of market share and profit)

Jaffe seems to be taking this too personally. Sure, the article has an angle, but it's not unfair to ask those questions and the reporter is under no obligation to ask positive questions like "how awesome is Killzone 2 going to be?" just because Jaffe works on the PS3.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Oh two more things...ok, three:

#1- Regarding why did I even mention the 360 when the questions don't. Uhm, WHY?!? Cause the guy writing the fucking article is getting paid BY MICROSOFT (who makes the 360)! Don't you think that's kind of , you know ,relevant?

doesn't every MSNBC article that deals with a Microsoft or NBC venture have the standard paragraph about them both being owned by the same parent company?

#2- Regarding 'wait for...' needing more justification on my part so it doesn't come across like a fanboy. This is NEOGAF, not BETTER HOMES AND GARDEN'S FORUMS...don't you think most folks here are already very aware of the value and/or lack of value of those titles? You think me talking about the amazing graphics in KILLZONE 2 or the stunning combat and story telling in GOW 3 or the fact that MLB 09 is really- to most baseball fans- the only game in town anymore, going to help? Minds are made up. Plus, I assumed since I named GEARS OF WAR 2 my favorite game of the year last year and play my Wii with my kids ALL time time (and make this clear so folks KNOW I am not biased in most of my posts on these sorts of topics), that would be enough to make it clear I was not a raging fanboy.

but gears 2 sucks, worst netcode ever. co-op is the only redeeming factor. and yeah, this IS neogaf... someone just listing games like that usually gets called out for 'wait for...'

#3- Regarding CALM DOWN SPAZ: Oh go fuck yourself. First off, because you are using the word SPAZ, I have to assume you are probably no older than 12, which makes me feel kind of stupid even defending myself to you. So I'll stop.

Ok, NOW I really am going back to work

David

hope you had something tasty to eat for lunch

 

[FrankT]

Soldier on for your console Jaffe. You can either answer the questions or not. Getting tired of your whining to be honest.

 

[°°ToMmY°°]

poor david, he can't take a break these days, they're always bitching toward him.

 

[davidjaffe]

Did Sony plan for it to sell so low? No. So by their own standards it is a failure.



It's evening but I would post all day every day on GAF if I could. and don't pretend you were never "cool". People including myself lauded you for your "NERD RAGE" schtick. look at your tag. by internet standards people here considered you cool for whatever it was worth. it's rather insulting for you to paint everyone who posts on GAF as a loser.



So if everything from the Wii at the very top to the Gamecube at the bottom is "not a failure" then what the hell is? Nintendo themselves said the GC failed. Pretending there is no loser in this business is, well, dumb.



Ninty's perspective is the business perspective which is what this article, and I thought this debate, was about.

Well I don't have a schtick. And I didn't make up my tag. I logged in and it was there.

And not everyone who posts on GAF is a loser. I never said loser.

But do I think that folks who regularly post on internet message boards - like myself- tend to probably not fit into the mold of what society considers 'cool' (which is the word you picked, not me)? Yeah, I do. Are there exceptions? I am sure there are many exceptions.
But it's clear to me:

a- you are not one of them
b- neither am I

David

 

[Stoney Mason]

Soldier on for your console Jaffe. You can either answer the questions or not. Getting tired of your whining to be honest.

To be fair I respect any dev who will wade into the cesspool of a gaming forum. I just think he has a pre-conceived bias he isn't taking into account. I believe that he respects all systems and all games. I just don't think that means we have to objectively pretend that some observations can't be made at this stage in the next gen console battle.

 

[SickBoy]

The only thing I have trouble with is your notion that the article should involve the 360 at all. Just because it is trying to point out some missteps of the PS3 it doesn't mean it has to point out missteps for the 360 to provide some sort of weird justice.

I'm glad someone said this... from the OP it appears that this is an article specifically about Sony.

I agree with people who would have liked to have seen a more neutral questioning style... but I don't see a cardinal sin -- from the perspective that this guy is essentially looking at the situation, taking a pretty good estimate of what Joe Average is probably thinking (or quite possibly what analysts have already said to him), then asking someone to weigh in on those ideas.

Holy.. this thread ballooned to five pages as I was typing this. :/

 

[Nirolak]

#2- Regarding 'wait for...' needing more justification on my part so it doesn't come across like a fanboy. This is NEOGAF, not BETTER HOMES AND GARDEN'S FORUMS...don't you think most folks here are already very aware of the value and/or lack of value of those titles? You think me talking about the amazing graphics in KILLZONE 2 or the stunning combat and story telling in GOW 3 or the fact that MLB 09 is really- to most baseball fans- the only game in town anymore, going to help? Minds are made up. Plus, I assumed since I named GEARS OF WAR 2 my favorite game of the year last year and play my Wii with my kids ALL time time (and make this clear so folks KNOW I am not biased in most of my posts on these sorts of topics), that would be enough to make it clear I was not a raging fanboy.

I meant more so also sending that analysis along to the MSNBC reporter for their readership than necessarily for gamers at NeoGAF. Sorry, I was unclear there.

 

[Kevtones]

This reaction seems like one from an overly-sensitive member of the SDF, and an average one at that. Also, Sony obviously made some huge missteps going from making two of the most successful consoles of all-time to a last place system with a lineup that remind of Gamecube-era Nintendo. Big 1st party stuff, 3rd part ports, and not much else.