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Jaffe:"Is this biased journalism? Or is it just me?"
- Thread starter FrankT
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I don't know if that alone is sufficient for failure. Failure, to me, says that you've not just come in under expectations, but come in well below expectations.
Of course, that's true for the PS3. It's hemorrhaging money faster than the original XBox did, it's selling several times more slowly than Sony would have anticipated, and consumers are rapidly losing their association of Playstation with video games (impacting Sony's chances in future generations). To add insult to injury, it's obvious in hindsight that there were many more profitable ways of spurring BluRay adoption that wouldn't have required eviscerating the gaming division.
Omar Ismail
Banned
davidjaffe said:
So we're going by that measurement? In that case, the whole damn industry - save Nintendo and Activision-Blizzard - are failures.
From a business perspective, David, MS got what it wanted - it hurt Sony and that was the entire point. A company sets the expectations for its product, not anyone else.
Robert Ashley
Member
The funny thing is, it looks to me like the guy was feeling out Sony insiders for balance in a story about the PS3's (completely reality based) failings.
The reporter was actually just being upfront and honest about his angle.
He probably should have gotten a little more personal with his subject before asking serious question about his subject's employer, but Jaffe is mega miss-reading this. It's embarrassing.
Also, I've never met a developer who believed in the bias fairy. Part of me thinks Jaffe is cynically using this to whip up the shock troops.
The reporter was actually just being upfront and honest about his angle.
He probably should have gotten a little more personal with his subject before asking serious question about his subject's employer, but Jaffe is mega miss-reading this. It's embarrassing.
Also, I've never met a developer who believed in the bias fairy. Part of me thinks Jaffe is cynically using this to whip up the shock troops.
Spider_Jerusalem
Member
CassidyIzABeast said:
:lol :lol :lol
Basically sony fanboys arguments since PS3 launch
Edit: just for not being misunderstood, I'm laughing at the fanboys and not the console itself, which has some really good games.
GenericPseudonym
Banned
davidjaffe said:Oh two more things...ok, three:
#1-Regarding why did I even mention the 360 when the questions don't. Uhm, WHY?!? Cause the guy writing the fucking article is getting paid BY MICROSOFT (who makes the 360)! Don't you think that's kind of , you know ,relevant?
#2- Regarding 'wait for...' needing more justification on my part so it doesn't come across like a fanboy. This is NEOGAF, not BETTER HOMES AND GARDEN'S FORUMS...don't you think most folks here are already very aware of the value and/or lack of value of those titles? You think me talking about the amazing graphics in KILLZONE 2 or the stunning combat and story telling in GOW 3 or the fact that MLB 09 is really- to most baseball fans- the only game in town anymore, going to help? Minds are made up. Plus, I assumed since I named GEARS OF WAR 2 my favorite game of the year last year and play my Wii with my kids ALL time time (and make this clear so folks KNOW I am not biased in most of my posts on these sorts of topics), that would be enough to make it clear I was not a raging fanboy.
#3- Regarding CALM DOWN SPAZ: Oh go fuck yourself. First off, because you are using the word SPAZ, I have to assume you are probably no older than 12, which makes me feel kind of stupid even defending myself to you. So I'll stop.
Ok, NOW I really am going back to work
David
1)Uhhh... MSNBC is a joint venture between MS and GE so it's not like he's paid directly by MS to talk up one of its smaller products.
2)It would be nice if discussion here was actually discussion and not bullet-pointing, Uncharted was the best looking game of 2007 it certainly didn't turn anything around.
3)A modicum of decorum would be nice, but as the generation has worn on it seems that threads involving the PS3 have had to turn to shit, thanks for helping that trend.
WickedLaharl
Member
davidjaffe said:Oh two more things...ok, three:
#1- Regarding why did I even mention the 360 when the questions don't. Uhm, WHY?!? Cause the guy writing the fucking article is getting paid BY MICROSOFT (who makes the 360)! Don't you think that's kind of , you know ,relevant?
#2- Regarding 'wait for...' needing more justification on my part so it doesn't come across like a fanboy. This is NEOGAF, not BETTER HOMES AND GARDEN'S FORUMS...don't you think most folks here are already very aware of the value and/or lack of value of those titles? You think me talking about the amazing graphics in KILLZONE 2 or the stunning combat and story telling in GOW 3 or the fact that MLB 09 is really- to most baseball fans- the only game in town anymore, going to help? Minds are made up. Plus, I assumed since I named GEARS OF WAR 2 my favorite game of the year last year and play my Wii with my kids ALL time time (and make this clear so folks KNOW I am not biased in most of my posts on these sorts of topics), that would be enough to make it clear I was not a raging fanboy.
#3- Regarding CALM DOWN SPAZ: Oh go fuck yourself. First off, because you are using the word SPAZ, I have to assume you are probably no older than 12, which makes me feel kind of stupid even defending myself to you. So I'll stop.
Ok, NOW I really am going back to work
David
it's also hard to believe an adult would respond in the way you so often do
i eagerly await another "go fuck yourself" response or some equivalent
Future PhaZe
Member
:lol
Byakuya769
Member
New thread -
Byakuya769: "Is this biased Jaffe posting? Or is it just me?"
Byakuya769: "Is this biased Jaffe posting? Or is it just me?"
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
WickedLaharl said:
Yeah, sorry to destroy your views about what adults should often do.
There's no bad question, as they say. It's the context of the questions that's at issue here, and what to expect from the journalist's final output in pursuing question in this context.1-D_FTW said:
His concept of firmware updates portrayed purely as "patches" is rather blinkered, for example. There may be a valid question there, but every major CE firm now uses firmware updates as a means to deliver complex functionality post product release that would inordinately delay said release. Do extensive firmware updates for both the Wii and 360 also indicate that those consoles had "no specific plan"? The journo's questions are clearly already framed to lead the story he wants to tell, rather than to find out what the story should be. So there may not be any bad questions but there are certainly good bad ways of asking them.
CrushDance
Banned
Hey Vinci,
BluRay.
BluRay.
Flachmatuch
Member
Meier said:
No. They pissed him off and he didn't answer them, and all he got from it was this thread, so actually the questions are shit. Their topic is reasonable, but they're so amateurish it hurts.
If you're a journalist, you don't play to piss off the people you're interviewing, you're playing to give you content - which he didn't get. Thus, the questions are crap. Jaffe's logic isn't very good either imo but it was the interviewer who wanted something from him and all he managed was to piss him off. He could have posed questions with the same content that Jaffe would have answered - he didn't, so he's crap. I'd fire him if I was his boss and read this thread tbh.
AndresON777
shooting blanks
RSTEIN said:
Could we perhaps not attack David? Even if I think the interviewer is a moron, he's asking questions that many of us would probably like to hear the guy's answers to.
Winning the format war didn't require them sacrificing their PlayStation brand. And beyond that, there's no way to know how that's going to turn out. The point is that the took a guaranteed victory in one market and traded it for a possible victory in another.
CrushDance said:
Winning the format war didn't require them sacrificing their PlayStation brand. And beyond that, there's no way to know how that's going to turn out. The point is that the took a guaranteed victory in one market and traded it for a possible victory in another.
EmCeeGramr
Member
davidjaffe said:
I'm serious Jaffe, buy HOTD: Overkill.
krypt0nian
Banned
Its obvious that there are plenty of people on GAF still pissed that their console of choice never got God of War.
Way to play them, Jaffe!
Way to play them, Jaffe!
WickedLaharl
Member
Vinci said:
maybe he should, oh i don't know, not constantly attack others?
Graphics Horse
Member
I'm curious about how UNCHARTED 2 could 'swing the consoles fortunes' if the first one failed to do so.
Anerythristic
Member
GAF,
Better question when will PS3 become the lovable underdog rather than the toppled tyrant?
Better question when will PS3 become the lovable underdog rather than the toppled tyrant?
The 360 seems like it's been reasonably successful to me, so far. MS is likely to only take a small-ish loss on the machine, the system is going to just about double the market share of the XBox, and MS has built much stronger relationships with third parties now. Nintendo first party titles excepted, the biggest games of the generation all seem to be on the 360, and most people who play them play them on the 360. They're in a pretty good position going into the next generation.
Now, obviously both MS and Sony made a lot of mistakes relative to Nintendo's seeming brilliance this generation, but it's a bit silly to pretend that one isn't doing much, much better than the other right now.
Now, obviously both MS and Sony made a lot of mistakes relative to Nintendo's seeming brilliance this generation, but it's a bit silly to pretend that one isn't doing much, much better than the other right now.
The Faceless Master
Member
oh yeah, i know how that is, people think i'm cool because i'm the 'go to' guy for tech questions, computer questions, videogame questions, etc... and then they ask if i have a myspace or facebook, and i say no, and they're STUNNED@!@!davidjaffe said:
MegaKungFuRadio
Member
Holy crap, a lot of you have to grow some skin. Long story short: biased? Of course. This guy knows what he wants to write and wants to give it credibility. Otherwise it might as well be a forum post--something read for amusement but carries no weight and is quickly dismissed. Thing is, there's no denying that Sony expected to dominate this generation as it had the past two, and the fact that they're in third now, after doubling its competition combined with the PS2. While worldwide numbers aren't so damning due to Europe being used to overpaying for things and the Xbox's failure to register in Japan, in America, the PS3 is getting rocked, and it's not about to recover overnight. While none of this is anything near a death knell for the PlayStation brand, no one can be happy with the results. Sony's handling of the PS3 is puzzling, but what could they have done? They won Blu ray vs. HDDVD, but hamstrung their games division by forcing the PS3 to cost 50% more than its competition and come out a year later. In many ways, America wasn't ready for the PS3, and to be honest, still isn't, but at least now it has games.
And finally: You do realize what the MS in MSNBC stands for, right?
And finally: You do realize what the MS in MSNBC stands for, right?
I think Jaffe's right. This article sounds like it's already written and the guy is just looking for quotes to attribute along the way to give his opinion more weight or fan the flames. All these Q's read out a certain way, and if you ask me he's fishing for something juicier than what he's actually got on paper to write about.
Have we even seen one hard hitting article about Microsoft laying off a good deal of their 1st party studios? Their RROD fiasco? I don't think we have. And honestly, those are valid questions just like these PS3 Q's are valid -- but would some Microsoft guy sit down and answer 100% negative questions regarding the console he's developing on or working for? Would anyone? I don't think so. And that's because not only is it not fair, it is potentially detrimental to their business.
And y'know, Jaffe doesn't work at Sony anymore but he is a PS3 developer. He will be making his livelihood off the console. The MSNBC questioner is basically asking him a line of questioning that reads "Hey, so how's the PS3 doing? Terrible or awful?"
Now being someone who plans to release their products on that particular machine, you can see why he may object to this. I know I would.
Have we even seen one hard hitting article about Microsoft laying off a good deal of their 1st party studios? Their RROD fiasco? I don't think we have. And honestly, those are valid questions just like these PS3 Q's are valid -- but would some Microsoft guy sit down and answer 100% negative questions regarding the console he's developing on or working for? Would anyone? I don't think so. And that's because not only is it not fair, it is potentially detrimental to their business.
And y'know, Jaffe doesn't work at Sony anymore but he is a PS3 developer. He will be making his livelihood off the console. The MSNBC questioner is basically asking him a line of questioning that reads "Hey, so how's the PS3 doing? Terrible or awful?"
Now being someone who plans to release their products on that particular machine, you can see why he may object to this. I know I would.
CrushDance
Banned
You were the one talking up absolute failure on the other page. Regardless of the fact, it's not a failure due to BluRay winning the format war.Vinci said:
Grampa Simpson
Banned
No really. He doesn't post here enough to know not to take you seriously.WickedLaharl said:
radioheadrule83
Banned
I'll have a go at some Sony spin (and throw in some truth while I'm at it)
In hindsight, noting the PS3's lukewarm reception and relatively high cost, a lot of people wonder what Sony was thinking when developing the PS3. So... what were they thinking?
Despite being sold at a significant premium to competitors early on, the system has managed to sell in excess of 20 million units worldwide since 2006. Competition is tougher now than in the last generation, PS3 is faring no worse after three years than Gamecube and the original Xbox were faring after five years. In hindsight - given the slower than expected uptake of HDTV and Blu-Ray - and given the current economic climate - things may have gone better had they done things differently. But ultimately, hindsight is 20:20. What we have though is an incredible piece of hardware - complete with high definition media format, built in wireless, non-proprietary storage, and arguably the highest graphical fidelity. It will be finding a use in the home for years to come, as a gaming machine, as a social networking tool, as a media center. And more importantly, not only is there great software already out, and more in the offing - it is only going to become cheaper and more accessible with time.
It's been said that Ken Kutaragi and Howard Stinger dictated what technology the PS3 should include instead of doing proper research to what the consumer wanted while paying little mind to price. As a development partner, did you feel that was the case? Why/why not?
Sonys a big company and as I understand it they consulted Publishers and Developers throughout the development process. So I don't believe that.
It seems that releasing a feature-rich console for $600, now $400, was a crippling move for Sony, especially given the recent economic downturn. Would you agree? Why/why not?
Sony isn't crippled as far as I'm aware. Had they come in at a lower price, it would have been no guarantee of leadership. The Xbox 360 enjoyed a long head start, and the Wii has found a niche that no-one considered might become so huge. And also, coming in at a lower price would have either meant cutting features from the box or bleeding money. Sony isn't a charity, its a business - we believe that when people look back on this generation - they will understand that we delivered a premium quality product with great longevity. Whenever they bought it, at whatever price, we believe they won't regret it.
Did you ever perceive low morale within the company once the $600 price was announced in 2006? Can you elaborate?
[laughs]
Consumers appear indifferent to Blu-ray technology. Do you feel Sony overvalued Blu-ray, after DVD helped the PS2 become such a huge success?
I think people are still migrating to high definition sets, and in some cases, still learning how to exploit them. The market isn't going to shrink, its going to grow with increasing pace - and as it does - PS3 will be there to offer added value that no other Blu-Ray player can offer. The kind of storage available thanks to Blu-Ray should also ensure that the system sees expansive, multi-language, high fidelity games that the competition will be hard pressed to reproduce on a single disc for their console.
It seems the PS3 has been cobbled together since its release: feature-cutting to help cut costs, patched with controller rumble, patched with Home patched with trophy achievements -- like the console never had a specific plan. During your tenure, did you feel the powers that be at Sony had a grip on what exactly would make the PS3 a success?
I wouldn't say that adding functionality means the system was only cobbled together intially. If that were the case, then is the New Xbox Experience an admission of some kind of failure? For me, the care taken in the hardware design is what has made it possible for such upgrades, what makes it possible for XMB / trophy related processes to be added and improved, and what was needed for those processes to remain persistant in the background. The controller lacked rumble, as I understand it, due to pending litigation, the effect of the rumbling on the Six-Axis accelerometers and the adverse affect on Battery life. I think the powers that be at Sony have more foresight than people imagine, and business continuity plans for when things don't work out for whatever reason. All good businesses do.
What has been your biggest concern as a PS3 developer?
Only that because I spend so much time developing for the awesome PlayStation3, I tend to have fewer hours playing the incredibly funtastic super awesome fun PlayStation3. This is the sacrifice I make for my fans.
Was the Wall Street Journal right: has hope faded for PS3 as the "comeback player"?
Hope faded for the Wall Street Journal when it was taken over by Rupert Murdoch... just kiddin' MSNBC!
In hindsight, noting the PS3's lukewarm reception and relatively high cost, a lot of people wonder what Sony was thinking when developing the PS3. So... what were they thinking?
Despite being sold at a significant premium to competitors early on, the system has managed to sell in excess of 20 million units worldwide since 2006. Competition is tougher now than in the last generation, PS3 is faring no worse after three years than Gamecube and the original Xbox were faring after five years. In hindsight - given the slower than expected uptake of HDTV and Blu-Ray - and given the current economic climate - things may have gone better had they done things differently. But ultimately, hindsight is 20:20. What we have though is an incredible piece of hardware - complete with high definition media format, built in wireless, non-proprietary storage, and arguably the highest graphical fidelity. It will be finding a use in the home for years to come, as a gaming machine, as a social networking tool, as a media center. And more importantly, not only is there great software already out, and more in the offing - it is only going to become cheaper and more accessible with time.
It's been said that Ken Kutaragi and Howard Stinger dictated what technology the PS3 should include instead of doing proper research to what the consumer wanted while paying little mind to price. As a development partner, did you feel that was the case? Why/why not?
Sonys a big company and as I understand it they consulted Publishers and Developers throughout the development process. So I don't believe that.
It seems that releasing a feature-rich console for $600, now $400, was a crippling move for Sony, especially given the recent economic downturn. Would you agree? Why/why not?
Sony isn't crippled as far as I'm aware. Had they come in at a lower price, it would have been no guarantee of leadership. The Xbox 360 enjoyed a long head start, and the Wii has found a niche that no-one considered might become so huge. And also, coming in at a lower price would have either meant cutting features from the box or bleeding money. Sony isn't a charity, its a business - we believe that when people look back on this generation - they will understand that we delivered a premium quality product with great longevity. Whenever they bought it, at whatever price, we believe they won't regret it.
Did you ever perceive low morale within the company once the $600 price was announced in 2006? Can you elaborate?
[laughs]
Consumers appear indifferent to Blu-ray technology. Do you feel Sony overvalued Blu-ray, after DVD helped the PS2 become such a huge success?
I think people are still migrating to high definition sets, and in some cases, still learning how to exploit them. The market isn't going to shrink, its going to grow with increasing pace - and as it does - PS3 will be there to offer added value that no other Blu-Ray player can offer. The kind of storage available thanks to Blu-Ray should also ensure that the system sees expansive, multi-language, high fidelity games that the competition will be hard pressed to reproduce on a single disc for their console.
It seems the PS3 has been cobbled together since its release: feature-cutting to help cut costs, patched with controller rumble, patched with Home patched with trophy achievements -- like the console never had a specific plan. During your tenure, did you feel the powers that be at Sony had a grip on what exactly would make the PS3 a success?
I wouldn't say that adding functionality means the system was only cobbled together intially. If that were the case, then is the New Xbox Experience an admission of some kind of failure? For me, the care taken in the hardware design is what has made it possible for such upgrades, what makes it possible for XMB / trophy related processes to be added and improved, and what was needed for those processes to remain persistant in the background. The controller lacked rumble, as I understand it, due to pending litigation, the effect of the rumbling on the Six-Axis accelerometers and the adverse affect on Battery life. I think the powers that be at Sony have more foresight than people imagine, and business continuity plans for when things don't work out for whatever reason. All good businesses do.
What has been your biggest concern as a PS3 developer?
Only that because I spend so much time developing for the awesome PlayStation3, I tend to have fewer hours playing the incredibly funtastic super awesome fun PlayStation3. This is the sacrifice I make for my fans.
Was the Wall Street Journal right: has hope faded for PS3 as the "comeback player"?
Hope faded for the Wall Street Journal when it was taken over by Rupert Murdoch... just kiddin' MSNBC!
Choke on the Magic
Banned
I'm surprised the journalist didn't just come out and ask: Why isn't GOWIII coming to 360?
Spider_Jerusalem said::lol :lol :lol
Basically sony fanboys arguments since PS3 launch
Edit: just for not being misunderstood, I'm laughing at the fanboys and not the console itself, which has some really good games.
The thing is, I don't think Jaffe meant, "Killzone 2 will save the PS3" or Uncharted 2, or Heavy Rain, or R&CF2, or Gran Turismo 5, or God of War 3, or Final Fantasy Versus XIII, or Trico or whatever he's working on.
No one game is going to make any difference. Maybe not even all of them. The PS3 is in a decent position. In terms of software it has a steady and healthy number of exclusives. Multiplatform development is no longer leaving PS3 owners with dog turd versions of games. The install base in Europe is just a little behind, even considering the 360's 16 month head start.
It's only in the US that PS3 is not in a good position. And Sony are not going to drop the system. It's going to be on sale for at least another five years. It'll go down in price, the install base will continue to grow.
Sony will very likely come last this generation, but they will still make a profit, and will still release PS4. Because Microsoft don't need the gaming industry, Sony do.
krypt0nian
Banned
LCfiner said:
Really? Go back and look at most of the folks outraged at Jaffe.
It would be like me going into the hilarious Dead Space Wii thread to laugh at the suffering.
AndresON777
shooting blanks
CrushDance said:
Pachter?
sloppyjoe_gamer said:
Certain cliques on GAF, and your group of friends would hardly qualify you to say that "noone" talks about it.
Please don't do that crap.
I'm going to assume you're not stupid. You knew exactly what I meant. When i say "no one", I don't LITERALLY mean EVERY PERSON EVER. You know that.
But it's very hard to deny that that is the general consensus throughout America. It's the simple truth. Gaming last gen was associated with "PlayStation". It no longer is. People talk about Xbox and Wii. Not PlayStation. In general. I'm not sure why you would argue that.
This is misguided. MS isn't laying off a bunch of people because they've mismanaged their XBox division into the ground. They're doing it for the same reason that every other company is, and almost nobody saw the economic collapse coming.
And as I said earlier, the journalist isn't really expecting honest answers here. But you don't write an article pointing out a company's failures without giving people who have a reason to be sympathetic to it a chance to respond.
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