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[faridmon]

Money is not actually going to change hands unless there IS a guarantee of some kind of support. What idiot console manufacturer is going to give a third party money without receiving some sort of guarantee in return? For one, I think there'd probably be some law against stealing some companies money and not returning the services for that fee :lol

right, never mind about that money issue then as long nintendo don't give them free pass.

my second point was, why help them when the support mabe there for a year or two, but after that will dwindle and will still give you crap. I imagine Nintenod helping Alchemist with marketing and after few years, spout the very same complaince against Nintendo and threat them for lesser support.

I mean, that can't be a good business direction for Nintendo can it?

 

[thefro]

#3/#4 are completely invalid issues for obvious reasons.

1) Is due to the amount of time it takes to set up a production line for the carts. I suppose Nintendo could lower the limit but raise the cost per cart for smaller runs but I'm sure devs would whine about that even more. I presume Sony owns their own lines for the UMDs that would be idle otherwise while Nintendo outsources. Any title that has a print run in the hundreds has zero effect on Nintendo's bottom line
2) Supply chain issues with DS software being ridiculously popular. Rectifying those would probably mean Nintendo would have to have warehouses full of carts so that companies could print new runs on demand.

Remember, Iwata has a responsibility to his shareholders to try to do things that will make the company money, not please niche game developers and hardcore gamers.

 

[faridmon]

Never heard of them - which game did Alchemist develop ?

The only games I know they are probably famous for are Higurashi ADV games.

 

[[Nintex]]

#3/#4 are completely invalid issues for obvious reasons.

1) Is due to the amount of time it takes to set up a production line for the carts. I suppose Nintendo could lower the limit but raise the cost per cart for smaller runs but I'm sure devs would whine about that even more. I presume Sony owns their own lines for the UMDs that would be idle otherwise while Nintendo outsources. Any title that has a print run in the hundreds has zero effect on Nintendo's bottom line
2) Supply chain issues with DS software being ridiculously popular. Rectifying those would probably mean Nintendo would have to have warehouses full of carts so that companies could print new runs on demand.

Remember, Iwata has a responsibility to his shareholders to try to do things that will make the company money, not please niche game developers and hardcore gamers.

1 & 2 should be fixed

3 makes sense, if you want but cant eat 100 pies, why should the piemaker make and pay all 100 for you? Or even for 2/3rds of them?

4 is something that publishers should take care of.

One of these policies on their own is somewhat of a hassle but not a big problem but combined they're is fucked up.

 

[Cosmonaut X]

The four points vary quite a bit:

• Points 1 and 2 would seem to be linked to manufacturing setup on Nintendo's side, and it would be interesting to know whether Nintendo suffer from the same issues and whether there is any practical way to improve these points. Can the lines be set up for smaller runs while remaining cost-effective? Is it possible to improve cart manufacturing turnaround to improve restock rates? The "other manufacturers" thing is a bit of a red herring as there aren't any other manufacturers making the same product in the market right now - UMDs would appear to be far quicker and easier to manufacture so I'd expect a faster turnaround and the ability to produce smaller runs.
• Point 3 is a fairly major issue, and I think Nintendo really need to address it. Paying the whole cost upfront is a massive investment even for a successful company with a strong product to put out. Let them pay a percentage of the cost upfront, and if you get issues with a particular publisher then adjust those terms on a case-by-case basis.
• Sounds like a good idea, and I think something like that would do a great deal to improve publisher relations and the visibility of other titles on their platforms.

There's one big black mark there - point 3 - and (assuming that Nintendo aren't dicking third parties around on 1 and 2 and are affected by it just as badly) a couple where some thought needs to go into improving manufacturing productivity.

Nice to see this kind of stuff out in the open though, as it may put some pressure on Nintendo to act in a way it wouldn't if it was all happening behind-the-scenes.

 

[Solune]

I think I read through the entire thread and didn't see it mentioned but, this also adversely affects localization efforts as well right?
For example Sega not bringing over 7th Dragon or Shining Force Feather?
On track though, Nintendo definitely needs to work on points #2 and #3. Didn't Nintendo a long time ago have a Q Fund and that later went towards funding Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles?
What happened to that after anyways? Does anyone think it would be beneficial for Nintendo to set aside something similar to the Q Fund in order for other third party developers to get their projects onto Nintendo's hardware?

 

[Prine]

Not surprised. I've always known nintendo to be a shady company behind the curtains. Its clearly an issue for both sides. You dont get as much games, you complain about it but are unable to accept the realities of 3rd parties decision.

 

[expy]

Shocked that they would come out and call out Nintendo like that.

 

[Sipowicz]

one thing i will say is that in the uk nintendo have put their weight behind two third party games, monster hunter and dragon quest 9.

both of these games are practically unknown, yet they charted and stayed on the charts for weeks on end.

nintendo knows how to advertise better than anyone, they just dont help third parties with it

 

[wsippel]

I might be wrong there, but I'm pretty sure DS cartridges still use mask ROMs (I'm 99.9% sure it's not flash based). That would probably explain the minimum order quantity and the long turnaround. It's far more trivial and cheap to press a couple of disks. And I always assumed that publishers had to pay the order up front anyway. Nintendo isn't a bank, they shouldn't have to take the risk. There's definitely a lot of room for improvement, but some of the issues mentioned the Alchemist guy mentioned probably can't be completely resolved - even though I have to agree that it sucks, especially for smaller publishers.

 

[Fritz]

Shocked that they would come out and call out Nintendo like that.

Im really happy that we finally get at least a tad of information concerning why the situation is so fucked up. So sick and tired of the argument, companies had something personal against Nintendo. That's just ridiculous.

 

[spwolf]

wouldnt Nintendo fans want MORE games on their consoles?

 

[faridmon]

wouldnt Nintendo fans want MORE games on their consoles?

wtf...

 

[Black Rainbow]

Im really happy that we finally get at least a tad of information concerning why the situation is so fucked up. So sick and tired of the argument, companies had something personal against Nintendo. That's just ridiculous.

Actually, that's still valid and it's not ridiculous. The complaints voiced by Alchemist in the OP are complaints that are probably only applicable to small timers and companies that are going to go out of business anyway. Big companies have zero excuses for all but ignoring Nintendo systems, particularly Wii, and if they did bother to support Nintendo systems, it was with software developed by their C and D-level teams as Miyamoto so rightly pointed out:

“If there's only one piece of advice that I could give to the managers of third party companies, it would be that a lot of times it seems that when they're putting games out on Nintendo hardware, those games are being developed by their third-string team or their fourth-string team"

 

[Panajev2001a]

Iwata said that? Out loud?

... wow... that is... uhm... brave?!? ......

Not even Jobs has the balls (or idiocy IMHO) to shout to the winds "hey, we heard you like this system a lot so we raised the price we are going to ask you for it!"... (of course Apple does it in practice, but he does not make it a PR point).

 

[Prine]

Actually, that's still valid and it's not ridiculous. The complaints voiced by Alchemist in the OP are complaints that are probably only applicable to small timers and companies that are going to go out of business anyway. Big companies have zero excuses for all but ignoring Nintendo systems, particularly Wii, and if they did bother to support Nintendo systems, it was with software developed by their C and D-level teams as Miyamoto so rightly pointed out:

I dont see why the size of dev is relevant. Nintendos process is less than ideal than what the others offer.

 

[DangerousDave]

Ok, here there are some data of sales and ratios of third party games in Nintendo consoles (and others), from an interesting article in Gamasutra: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...ce_Promises_Closer_Developer_Ties_For_3DS.php

See that even with the difference of software sales, PSP is not so far away from DS, for thirds. Also, PS3 seems to have more 3th party sales than Wii. So, obviously, Nintendo need to address this.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I mean we sort of expect all corporations to be big and greedy and that's their right if consumers are there to pay whatever exorbitant bullshit price they charge, but to actually say it out loud in the presence of someone who could relay it to the general public?

Christ...

I feel the same way... the worst Kutaragi comments (he made some bad ones, he is not perfect ) and a lot of what came out of SCEE PR people over the past few years have met their match...

 

[Black Rainbow]

... wow... that is... uhm... brave?!? ......

Not even Jobs has the balls (or idiocy IMHO) to say "hey, we heard you like this system a lot so we raised the price we are going to ask you for it!"... (of course Apple does it in practice, but he does not make it a PR point).

You make it sound like that was the sole consideration. There were other factors at work in arriving at the pricing of the 3DS.

I dont see why the size of dev is relevant. Nintendos process is less than ideal than what the others offer.

Size is very relevant in terms of point number 1 in the OP. The other points are moot.

 

[Cosmonaut X]

I feel the same way... the worst Kutaragi comments (he made some bad ones, he is not perfect ) and a lot of what came out of SCEE PR people over the past few years have met their match...

Unless I'm reading it wrong, didn't he just say that the positive reaction to the system at E3 was one of several factors in settling on the final, higher-than-expected price?

I mean, it's perhaps not the most diplomatic thing to have even fallen out of Iwata's mouth, but it's not quite as damning as it has been made out to be in some places.

 

[cw_sasuke]

I dont see why the size of dev is relevant. Nintendos process is less than ideal than what the others offer.

How many companies offer their games on modules ?

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

It's because Nintendo games are just better.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Unless I'm reading it wrong, didn't he just say that the positive reaction to the system at E3 was one of several factors in settling on the final, higher-than-expected price?

I mean, it's perhaps not the most diplomatic thing to have even fallen out of Iwata's mouth, but it's not quite as damning as it has been made out to be in some places.

Sure... and historically it is true that even though products in Europe are launched later and at a price premium people still pay to purchase such wares...
Still, for SCEE's PR saying "bah... nothing to worry about PS3 EU launch... people here do not mind waiting and paying more..." was idiotic and made me quite angry...

 

[Panajev2001a]

You make it sound like that was the sole consideration. There were other factors at work in arriving at the pricing of the 3DS.

Yes, perhaps the other considerations helped the price not to be raised to 30,000 Yen .

 

[RurouniZel]

Ok, here there are some data of sales and ratios of third party games in Nintendo consoles (and others), from an interesting article in Gamasutra: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...ce_Promises_Closer_Developer_Ties_For_3DS.php

http://www.gamesetwatch.com/77l.jpg[IMG]

[IMG]http://www.gamesetwatch.com/78l.jpg[IMG]

See that even with the difference of software sales, PSP is not so far away from DS, for thirds. Also, PS3 seems to have more 3th party sales than Wii. So, obviously, Nintendo need to address this.[/QUOTE]

One thing these graphs almost always fail to mention however, is that comparatively, neither Sony nor Microsoft put out anywhere NEAR as much 1st party software as Nintendo. Of course the percentage is going to turn out that way.

A much better idea would be to compare total average sales of 3rd party software on the PS3 and 360 and Wii per title. It would still lean higher on the HD platforms I'm sure, but the results wouldn't be THAT dramatic I'd wager.

 

[Mael]

It's because some Nintendo games are just better.

They have bombs too.

 

[DangerousDave]

A much better idea would be to compare total average sales of 3rd party software on the PS3 and 360 and Wii per title. It would still lean higher on the HD platforms I'm sure, but the results wouldn't be THAT dramatic I'd wager.

The second image are absolute values of games sold, not percentage. And PS3 sell clearly more third party games. And, also, there are much more third party games in Wii than in PS3, so the average units sold for a PS3 third party game is much bigger than for a Wii third party one.

There are, obviously, other things to consider, like game cost, etc, revenue for any game sold, etc.

 

[Shiggy]

Ok, here there are some data of sales and ratios of third party games in Nintendo consoles (and others), from an interesting article in Gamasutra: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...ce_Promises_Closer_Developer_Ties_For_3DS.php

See that even with the difference of software sales, PSP is not so far away from DS, for thirds. Also, PS3 seems to have more 3th party sales than Wii. So, obviously, Nintendo need to address this.

Nintendo releases more and better games (sales perspective) than the other two first parties.

 

[leroy hacker]

Wow!! Those are some serious issues that probably are seen as drawbacks and can really keep a company away from Nintendo.

With regards to the Wii Market, there is still the problem with the audience its self and their buying habits; situations like (rough estimates):
Just dance - 3 million copies sold
Carnival Games - 3million copies sold
Dead Space: Extraction - 200 thousand copies sold
Silent Hill: Shattered memories - 200 thousand copies sold

It is hard to support the console with new ideas when people only seem to want crap.

Did you buy DSE? Do you really consider it to be a new idea?

 

[DangerousDave]

Nintendo releases more and better games (sales perspective) than the other two first parties.

I'm not sure Nintendo sold more first party games than Sony, (Wii vs PS3).

And about the better (sales wide) nobody is negating the fact that the first party sales are bigger in Wii-Ds than in other platforms. But in Wii there is very few third party sales (absolute numbers) than in other platforms, as PS3, that have a smaller userbase.

 

[gofreak]

Nintendo releases more and better games (sales perspective) than the other two first parties.

It's irrelevant to third parties.

But is that actually true? For NA at least, Sony's publishing more games this year for PS3 than Nintendo is for Wii (and this is perhaps a busier year for Nintendo and perhaps a less busy one for Sony on average - or at least seems that way). Of course, it only takes a few BIG nintendo games to rack up huge sales.

But still, in context, what Nintendo or the other first parties are doing is irrelevant to third parties. They just care about how their software is selling. Yes, strength of nintendo's first party helps explain why there's proportionately little market for third parties, but's still fair to compare the total market on each platform to see why third parties may be more or less happy with different platforms.

 

[Mael]

I'm not sure Nintendo sold more first party games than Sony, (Wii vs PS3).

Is it a bad joke?
I mean you know that they released something called WiiSports/Wiifit and even fucking New Super Mario Bros Wii lately?
I mean when have Sony EVER released anything that was even half as popular as that?

 

[gofreak]

Is it a bad joke?
I mean you know that they released something called WiiSports/Wiifit and even fucking New Super Mario Bros Wii lately?
I mean when have Sony EVER released anything that was even half as popular as that?

He means the number of games they've released, not how many units they've sold total.

 

[DangerousDave]

Is it a bad joke?
I mean you know that they released something called WiiSports/Wiifit and even fucking New Super Mario Bros Wii lately?
I mean when have Sony EVER released anything that was even half as popular as that?

Amount of titles, not amount of games sold. I was replying the argument "Nintendo releases more and better games (sales perspective)", so in the context, more means amount of titles.

 

[Mael]

He means the number of games they've released, not how many units they've sold total.

ah. In this case it paints a darker picture on Sony's efforts or a better picture even for Nintendo, because when you compare the sales data for the too...
One is vastly more successful than the other

 

[DangerousDave]

ah. In this case it paints a darker picture on Sony's efforts or a better picture even for Nintendo, because when you compare the sales data for the too...
One is vastly more successful than the other

But we are not discussing this. We're talking about third party sales and the issues that third party have with Nintendo.

 

[Mael]

But we are not discussing this. We're talking about third party sales and the issues that third party have with Nintendo.

Well yeah but the weight of the 1rst party software on 3rd parties went into play somehow.
My point here would be that it's not Nintendo's fault that other 1rst party fucking sucks saleswise so that it paint a different picture.
Heck if anything it shows that the 1rst party is actually filling a niche that the 3rd parties are unable to fill.
Quite clearly the problem is more that 3rd parties are unable to do something right more than 1rst party actually suffocating the market.
Quite clearly they can't afford to stop pushing hardware through 1rst party software since 3rd parties are unable to sell anything.
they can do that (and they pretty much did on the ds) when they have absolute and utter dominance but not on the Wii.

And again why the hell are we discussing Wii data on a DS thread?

 

[Zoe]

And again why the hell are we discussing Wii data on a DS thread?

You don't think Wii software shares similar problems?

 

[Mael]

You don't think Wii software shares the same problems?

You mean the printing problem that is mostly discussed here?
I don't know why but I think they have way less of a problem on Wii than on DS for that.
Not that they'd actually need anything to print considering how fucking apathetic 3rd parties are on Wii in Japan.

 

[Empty]

it's a real shame that nintendo does this as the ds, thanks to how it supports a diverse range of game styles and budgets and the huge installed base, should be a great platform for smaller developers to thrive on, yet they are being hurt by nintendo's unfriendly practices.

 

[Zoe]

You mean the printing problem that is mostly discussed here?
I don't know why but I think they have way less of a problem on Wii than on DS for that.

It would be a faulty comparison to the other hardware manufacturer's requirements if there isn't something similar for the Wii.

Not that they'd actually need anything to print considering how fucking apathetic 3rd parties are on Wii in Japan.

And there's reason for that.

 

[Mael]

It would be a faulty comparison to the other hardware manufacturer's requirements if there isn't something similar for the Wii.

You're telling me you actually believe that they take 4 weeks to actually press bloody Dvds?
If the problem for the Wii is similar to the problem they have on the DS, they need to go out of business ASAP.
Noone is THAT slow in burning disc and manufacturing the packaging if it's even Nintendo actually burning the discs and all.
We're talking about DS carts that are actually quite new as a format against something like Dvds which are quite standard and done by nearly ANYONE on the market of media consumption.
the first 3 problems simply CANNOT be similar for both platforms.

 

[Zoe]

You're telling me you actually believe that they take 4 weeks to actually press bloody Dvds?
If the problem for the Wii is similar to the problem they have on the DS, they need to go out of business ASAP.
Noone is THAT slow in burning disc and manufacturing the packaging if it's even Nintendo actually burning the discs and all.
We're talking about DS carts that are actually quite new as a format against something like Dvds which are quite standard and done by nearly ANYONE on the market of media consumption.
the first 3 problems simply CANNOT be similar for both platforms.

#2 may not apply, but #1 and #3 certainly can most definitely be similar. Especially #3.

 

[Mael]

#2 may not apply, but #1 and #3 certainly can most definitely be similar. Especially #3.

#3 is certainly something they would apply no matter the format, #1 is different.
I mean a Ds cart is significantly costier to produce all things considered (especially now that Dvd is ending its life as a format).
Still there's other bigger problems that the Wii have that the DS certainly don't have that could of bigger concern to 3rd parties.
What I mean is that even if they managed to rule out the 3 pbs for the wii it wouldn't even begin to make a difference, whereas on Ds that's probably the only problems they have.
Heck seeing how 3rd party went bumbling into the wii contrary to the Ds I'd say they had real problems evaluating what they could do on it.

 

[MYE]

Thread about the DS turns into Wii VS Sony nonsense.

And did i just read the word "fad"? :lol

 

[ULTROS!]

Besides Nintendo's handhelds (which we know 3rd parties are thriving at), wasn't the SNES a successful system for third parties thus giving it a pretty good amount of 3rd party games?

I never had an N64 but did it have a healthy amount of 3rd party games?

 

[Vinci]

What the hell is Nintendo thinking with these policies? Hell, now I'm having to rethink my '3rd parties are morons' theme - that's how stupid this is.

 

[Mael]

Besides Nintendo's handhelds (which we know 3rd parties are thriving at), wasn't the SNES a successful system for third parties thus giving it a pretty good amount of 3rd party games?

I never had an N64 but did it have a healthy amount of 3rd party games?

Snes was successful to an extent that's difficult to imagine to anyone knowing Nintendo only from the n64 era onward.
Still 3rd party were fucking pissed by Nintendo's pratice, they jumped ship as quickly as they could. The thing was a massive exodus, seriously it went from basically the DS situation to the n64 situation (basically imagine something like Wii only with less titles and even less people interested in it but the US).
Seriously 3rd parties couldn't be happier Sony came on board.

so to answer your question : n64 wasn't that good with 3rd party game, worse ever actually (unless you count the failed experiments like Virtual Boy)

 

[Vic]

Besides Nintendo's handhelds (which we know 3rd parties are thriving at), wasn't the SNES a successful system for third parties thus giving it a pretty good amount of 3rd party games?

Yeah, but that's because third parties had no choice but to develop for that system, even if they didn't liked Nintendo's business conditions. When a more favourable option entered the market (Sony with the PS1), they nearly all flocked to that system, especially in Japan.

 

[loosus]

I'm not sure why everyone is dismissing his wish that Nintendo advertised third-party games more. I mean, if the competition is doing it and that's what's allowing the competition to get more high-quality games, why is it so preposterous that one might expect a key player in this market to follow suit?