Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Oh? What was the context then?
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John Oliver - Hollywood Whitewashing
- Thread starter SlimySnake
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A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Full quote was “For me, Idris Elba is a bit too rough to play the part. It’s not a color issue. I think he is probably a bit too ‘street’ for Bond. Is it a question of being suave? Yeah.”
He was discussing demeanor and "suaveness," which I still think is stupid because Elba is an actor and can act that way, but that one partial sentence from one larger quote in one larger interview where the subject of Bond's race was specifically brought up and he noted that he would be totally for it. People ran with the "too street" part without the context of "a bit too rough" that came before it. It was shitty internet journalism and click bait junk.
In the same interview he says Adrian Lester would be a better Bond.
Of course in the same interview he said he liked Casino Royale because it went back to Bond's rough roots so whatever...
Messofanego
Banned
Incorrect question. Makes the assumption that the film cast the "best actor" out of a wide pool of casting auditions. Bale was their choice to star before the film really got into pre-production.
http://deadline.com/2013/03/christian-bale-eyeing-moses-454597/
There was no casting or reading for Moses. They picked a name, they made an offer, and Bale agreed.
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Again, the assumption people tend to have is "oh, there was casting and this actor was the best option". For many of these Hollywood films, the major named actors did not go to a casting audition or read for a role. You have only to look as far as the Sony email leaks.
For example, the second Ghostbusters film that was planned, Sony had Channing Tatum and Chris Pratt on board from the get-go.
Likewise, Feig probably cast Melissa McCarthy and Kristen Wiig and wrote the characters with them in mind. Will those folks work in those roles? Sure. I'm down for the new Ghostbusters and I'd love Tatum and Pratt to be in a film together. Did "best actor" ever enter contention? Nope.
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I've answered a similar question before:
Waleed Zuaiter
Ashraf Barhom
Faran Tahir
(I'll add in Alexander Siddig. Who wasn't in the original post.)
You know who would've killed it as a young Moses? Rami Malek. Kid is amazing in Mr. Robot. (Directed by Sam Esmail, who is also of Egyptian descent.)
Opposite him, I probably would've cast Sammy Sheik.
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Here's one great example of how little opportunity great minority actors get. F. Murray Abraham, who is Syrian-American. His big break was playing Salieri in Amadeus. Before that?
One role propelled him towards an Oscar. One role. He just needed a chance to prove how amazing he was and he never got that chance before Amadeus. And the reason he got that chance is because the director actively did not want major stars in his starring roles.
That's the problem. It's not that you don't have amazing actors of color, it's that they rarely get the chance to step up and be the headliner. That's why whitewashing is an issue, not because the character's race is inviolate; for many characters, the race is immaterial. It's because people of color - especially those outside of the basic Hollywood white and black color scheme - rarely get a chance to get great roles. So when a character is tailor-made for them, that opportunity is one too great to pass up. And whitewashing gets rid of that opportunity completely.
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The role of Finn was cast, Boyega just happened to be the one they chose.
Even that was in contention, with Abrams doing the legwork:
Great post, as always. And I know all those actors, quite well known. Mr Robot is quite diverse, I mean they've got a female muslim hacker for pete's sake!
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
I can't deny some part of me wants and Idris Elba Bond just for the "outrage" it would cause. But most of me just thinks he'd make a very good Bond.
Really glad he was one of those Trek actors able to keep up a successful career after the show. Thrilled he's in Game of Thrones, and wish he was in more.
His Star Trek character's description in the DS9 bible never fails to amuse me. Though it was more do them casting a Doctor out of necessity. Can't have Trek without a Doctor.
Though, I was interested to learn that he was considered for the role of Sisko for a while, but that he was too young. They needed someone who could be seen as having a teenage son.
Really glad he was one of those Trek actors able to keep up a successful career after the show. Thrilled he's in Game of Thrones, and wish he was in more.
His Star Trek character's description in the DS9 bible never fails to amuse me. Though it was more do them casting a Doctor out of necessity. Can't have Trek without a Doctor.
Though, I was interested to learn that he was considered for the role of Sisko for a while, but that he was too young. They needed someone who could be seen as having a teenage son.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
Exodus would have been much more interesting if it tried to be authentic, and I think it could have actually been more commercially successful if it had been marketed and directed with authenticity in mind, to "witness the Biblical event as if you had been there, like Hollywood never could do it before". Scott is an idiot who keeps trying to justify everything he does on commercial viability, he always spins that same record. A real talented director doesn't have to play on that, let alone make it so obvious you can see the contract printed on the theater screen.
edit: Moses should be played by a Jew though.
It is him, since he is the only samurai left alive at the end of the movie, who the heck else is supposed to be the last samurai?
edit: Moses should be played by a Jew though.
It is him, since he is the only samurai left alive at the end of the movie, who the heck else is supposed to be the last samurai?
Really just sad.
I'm pretty sure The Last Samurai refer to Katsumoto's entire group as they're presented as... The Last Samurai.
I don't think the title of the movie refers to who is alive at the end.
Vincent Alexander
Member
I really don't get The Last Samurai---what makes a samurai isn't where you are from or what your ethnicity is. It is following the way of the samurai. In spirit, he has become a samurai by the end. Right? Though I guess I could see others point about the whole of the samurai being the ones referred to.
Either way, great video.
Either way, great video.
Vincent Alexander
Member
What is really depressing to think about is how many great non-white actors are surely out there and gave up on Hollywood because they couldn't get cast in a single movie because of their skin.
Because it leads to things like what happened in this very thread, with people suggesting actors who are just as or more inappropriate for the role as Gyllenhaal, but they fit a stereotype of "vaguely Middle Eastern." It ends up being just as racially insensitive as the thing we are all theoretically against. In another one of these threads someone once suggested Naveen Andrews. I mean, seriously?
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
Jesse Plemons is a great actor. Finn would've worked just fine with him.
But Boyega killed it so this conversation is moot.
But Boyega killed it so this conversation is moot.
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
Man, the Fast and Furious franchise would've died after 1 movie if it was just a bunch of white dudes and dudettes.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Wasn't that movie Torque and later followed by Need For Speed?
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
Well, Point Break at least made money.
MR BLACKMAGIK
Member
I love how he pointed out the double standard of how people go crazy when a black actor/actress plays a traditional white character.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
All of them are good. I sat for hours watching clips on his youtube channel.
Mrs. Manky
Banned
Egyptian don't crack.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I like how he showed that it's clearly not just an antiquated trend of the 50's and 60's but alive and well today.
In fact I remember being pretty appalled at this Wikipedia list which shows it's not even less common than before, but perhaps even more, somehow (sort by date):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_featuring_whitewashed_roles
In fact I remember being pretty appalled at this Wikipedia list which shows it's not even less common than before, but perhaps even more, somehow (sort by date):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_featuring_whitewashed_roles
DarkJediKnight
Member
Say what you will about Mel, he is a fucking amazing director and he will not compromise the integrity of his films.
Apocalypto was amazing because of that cast. It loses so much if the damn thing was in English with Mark Walhberg as the lead, you know.
What I think is funny despite all the racist outcry against Star Wars, all of that is gone once people saw the movie. Legitimately, I live in conservative Indiana and someone told me opening day they weren't gonna see Star Wars because it was "anti-white". Disgusting, but what made it better is they saw it three weeks later, and said that Poe was their favorite character. I know plenty of people of so many different ethnicities who had Finn as their fave, and a couple of those were also on the "WHAT? A black stormtrooper?" parade.
The important thing is that diverse casts start showing up in all types of quality movies. Because, and I don't mean to trivialize the issue with this, Exodus and Gods of Egypt wouldn't magically become good movies with a diverse cast, and Fantastic Four wouldn't magically be a better film if it had a white Human Torch. Movies like Star Wars and the superhero movies need to embrace diversity, same with whatever young adult fiction franchise is gonna be big next (Fantastic Beasts?)
The important thing is that diverse casts start showing up in all types of quality movies. Because, and I don't mean to trivialize the issue with this, Exodus and Gods of Egypt wouldn't magically become good movies with a diverse cast, and Fantastic Four wouldn't magically be a better film if it had a white Human Torch. Movies like Star Wars and the superhero movies need to embrace diversity, same with whatever young adult fiction franchise is gonna be big next (Fantastic Beasts?)
he didn't exactly hire a Middle Eastern guy to play Jesus tho
Angelus Errare
Banned
Jesus is white and he's from America.
You can go on his official YouTube channel and catch up on those main segments offered.
Wish they hadn't emphasized that one so much. It's just like when people see "The Mexican" and think Brad Pitt is the Mexican.
the general modern idea of "whiteness" (as weird and arbitrary as it is) in modern society does not overlap with the classic definition of caucasian, and most people sure as hell don't think it covers north africans and arabs
Saint Gregory
Member
We had a thread about this a while back on the gaming side (a medium where whitewashing makes even less sense) and I was really depressed by some of the comments.
It was like, werewolves and Tesla powered weapons were fine but a PoC in Victorian England would break your suspension of disbelief -_-
Even after posters showed that 19th century London had a lot more diversity than people realized there were comments about how devs shouldn't feel "forced" to put minority characters into their games. The idea that the presence of PoC is more of a distraction than fantasy elements in media is kind of sad to me.
Sorry, by legal definition in the US, Arabs, Persians, North Africans, etc. are most certainly white.
Edit: Also, what you basically just said is that a lot of ethnic groups in the US, who, historically, identified as white are not really white. Because 'most people don't think so'.
Prototype Viktor
Member
In the same way South Africa was white. White looking Persians, North africans are from the history of mixing via trade or more so conquering. I was off and on with a girl from Morocco for a decade and the only non medium brown people in her whole giant family is from France integration (they all had to learn French and English)
The show is filmed in NY, they're weren't laughing because they think blackface is funny. They were laughing at how awful Hollywood is. "wtf is this shit?" as said someone else above.
I had friends who were at the filming for this particular episode, I don't think they're fans of blackface.
Ah, that's not true at all. This notion that the Arabs simply rolled in and displaced the local population is quite frankly offensive. The Coptic Egyptians who still practice Christianity to this day, are indistinguishable from the majority of their Muslim neighbours. The population is for the most part the same. The ancient Arabs claimed descent from abraham through Ishmael, whose mother was an Egyptian of the ancient variety.
Modern day Egyptians and/or other North Africans (Berbers, Tuaregs, etc) are the population group that should be playing the roles set in Egypt.
WHAT?! You do realise the story of Moses predates Alexander's arrival in Egypt by quite a few centuries right?
I'll get lambasted for this because there isn't any room for discussion on subjects like this, but WHILE I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH THE SENTIMENT I kinda felt like the jokes and points were sloppily and lazily made.
Still the most important show on TV.
Lots of great talent just ignored, because they liked her in another role and they wanted to work with her. Shit is cyclical and builds on itself.
There ARE less meaty roles (because writers can be racist too) and less money for black actors (Because the top 10 movies of the year like Star Wars don't have shit to do with the average production) and they white wash like crazy. It's all fucked. All the way down.
And honestly, we can't really have an honest conversation about the mechanics of it, because we inevitably cycle around to a tiny pool of movies that people bother watching so the scale of it is masked to even people who are sympathetic. Even Oliver hand waves aspects of the problem as though they are empty excuses - but it's symptoms of the same thing.
Still the most important show on TV.
This is totally true. I was working on a game today where they were sent probably 50 or so auditions from black actors for a black role and they decided to cast a white girl who didn't audition for that part as the black character.
Lots of great talent just ignored, because they liked her in another role and they wanted to work with her. Shit is cyclical and builds on itself.
There ARE less meaty roles (because writers can be racist too) and less money for black actors (Because the top 10 movies of the year like Star Wars don't have shit to do with the average production) and they white wash like crazy. It's all fucked. All the way down.
And honestly, we can't really have an honest conversation about the mechanics of it, because we inevitably cycle around to a tiny pool of movies that people bother watching so the scale of it is masked to even people who are sympathetic. Even Oliver hand waves aspects of the problem as though they are empty excuses - but it's symptoms of the same thing.
I mean, that's completely irrelevant. What does a fictional story have to do with anything?
Just pointing out that Arabs have always considered themselves having ties to Egypt.
And Exodus says that Jews were held in mass slavery in Egypt....which they weren't. Ancient people often had very funky ideas about their past.
Even though a lot of nationalism would want to have you think otherwise, neither the Arabs nor the Copts have any real claims to the bloodlines of ancient egypt and the pharaohs, which has simply been diluted by (ten) thousands of years of conquest and migration, even before the Persian conquest. The statues of pharaohs we hold prototypical are not even a clear depiction of ancient Egyptians, because the title of pharaoh was not hereditary like European royalty, but shows traits of Macedonians, Persians, Libyans, Sea People, Nubians and whoever was the flavor of the week before that.
The point isn't a white guy could never be a samurai. The whole point is even when Hollywood decided to make a Samurai movie set in ancient Japan, they have to put a white guy front and center in the movie.
That's the textbook definition of white washing.
Imagine Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon shot in China with a bunch of white guys fighting. This is the same shit.
I get and agree with your point, but small nitpick: I wouldn't consider Meiji era Japan to be ancient Japan. America didn't exist for what most would say was ancient Japan.
They changed the name from Venkat to Vincent in The Martian.
This is something that they do a lotin USA, give South Asian characters a western name, infact it's a practice that people follow in real life too. They explain it by stating that either the character in the show changed it for some reason or they just outright change it for no reason. Priyanka Chopra's character in Quantico is named Alex Parrish...even her last name is western lol. I think Tom Haverford in Parks and Rec was a satirical take on this where he changes the name because he knew no one would vote for him with the Indian name.
Ancient Japan, lol. The film is set in the late nineteenth century.
...is it though?
The Last Samurai isn't really about the Samurai, it's about Nathan Algren (Tom Cruise) making peace with his experiences in the Indian Wars, through bonding with another (what he considers to be) older and spiritual people. What is happening to the Samurai is only really important in how it relates to his internal struggle.
Without Algren, it would be an entirely different movie.
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