Support NeoGAF

[silvermember]

I swear every time the last samurai comes up its bashed on exclusively for the title and not the movie

I know right.

It pisses me off. It is totally not a white Savior movie. The white guy doesn't become proficient or receive an honor from the emperor. Nor does he remind the emperor of his sense of honor. The Japanese were not helpless until the white guy showed up.

This is not the Hollywood whitewashing.

I feel like a lot of people missed the point of the movie.

 

[SonnyBoy]

I feel like a lot of people missed the point of the movie.

A large part of the problem is that to the casual person, the poster looks like the what you're saying it isn't. For people who are tired of that narrative, that poster did nothing to attract them as a form of advertisement.

So to your point, they prolly never saw the movie because of the poster.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Google "Iranian actors" at least before making an opinion. The games themselves were far from accurate portrayals of Persians.

I have. Why dont you Google facial features? What does that even mean, "accurate portrayal"? There are only ever two or three characters in any Prince of Persia game, and tbh, it's a fantasy series. What about The Prince is inaccurate in Sands of Time, Warrior Within, Two Thrones and 2008? The fact that he's browner than an industry than that pushes for the fair and lovely? That he's being chased around by time gods, falling in love with Indian princesses and escaping absurd death traps? yeah I guess you're right, that is pretty inaccurate.

 

[Boudica]

Why are people suggesting Indo/Pak actors for the role of Prince of Persia?

 

[Htown]

It's a avatar, Pocahontas, Dances with Wolves, Blood Diamond. It's a story of someone privileged choosing another path that his own kind perceives to be barbaric. That is always a great story, if told well. And The Last Samurai is told really well.

Yeah, those stories are kind of bullshit, though. Or at least it's bullshit that those are the kinds of stories that get told.

I always think about this random-ass quote about Avatar from the late Ryan Davis of Giant Bomb.

The story of Avatar, it's basically Last of the Mohicans, Dances with Wolves, Last Samurai, it's any of those stories. It's white colonialist fantasy, of... it's liberal guilt manifest, where it's like "I'm against my forefathers who came and pillaged your land, and I'm going to fight alongside of you, but then I'm also going to still rise to the top of you and become the best of you, because I'm still white. So you need me to embrace the best things about you while retaining my whiteness, and then using those combined forces to beat the old white people."

I'm saying why can't you just do a story that's about people in these cultures? Why does the story always have to be about some white guy coming to appreciate these cultures, as opposed to just telling a story about the people in these cultures, like they're actually human beings that have their own intrinsic value aside from making white people engage with the morality of their grandfathers?

 

[Usobuko]

The story of Avatar, it's basically Last of the Mohicans, Dances with Wolves, Last Samurai, it's any of those stories. It's white colonialist fantasy, of... it's liberal guilt manifest, where it's like "I'm against my forefathers who came and pillaged your land, and I'm going to fight alongside of you, but then I'm also going to still rise to the top of you and become the best of you, because I'm still white. So you need me to embrace the best things about you while retaining my whiteness, and then using those combined forces to beat the old white people."

Beautiful said.

We could have easily dismiss it if it's a one off thing, but it's not. You always need this white dude to fight and save the natives from their tormentors.

 

[Victarion]

I have. Why dont you Google facial features?

Spot the Mr. Whitey White non-Persian with white facial features or whatever that is.

Even if you take the modern Iran as an example of how ancient Persians looked like, Iran is a large country with various ethnic groups, different looks, whites, browns, even blacks to the far south. Yet everyone want it to be exclusively brown, because Middle East.

What does that even mean, "accurate portrayal"? There are only ever two or three characters in any Prince of Persia game, and tbh, it's a fantasy series. What about The Prince is inaccurate in Sands of Time, Warrior Within, Two Thrones and 2008? The fact that he's browner than an industry than that pushes for the fair and lovely? That he's being chased around by time gods, falling in love with Indian princesses and escaping absurd death traps? yeah I guess you're right, that is pretty inaccurate.

Lets see... Perhaps not making him look Indian or Arab, or at least give the characters some Persian names. 2008 and to some extent WW were the only games that used Persian names. Heck in Forgotten Sands some djin speaks Persian but the prince himself can't understand it.

 

[SeanC]

I'm saying why can't you just do a story that's about people in these cultures? Why does the story always have to be about some white guy coming to appreciate these cultures, as opposed to just telling a story about the people in these cultures, like they're actually human beings that have their own intrinsic value aside from making white people engage with the morality of their grandfathers?

Because you can't pitch that to studio execs and financiers in the room all of whom are white and convince them they'll make their money back.

 

[silvermember]

A large part of the problem is that to the casual person, the poster looks like the what you're saying it isn't. For people who are tired of that narrative, that poster did nothing to attract them as a form of advertisement.

So to your point, they prolly never saw the movie because of the poster.

Not to rude, but I was being sarcastic.

My whole comment was calling out the white savior complex which was essentially the plot of the movie.

 

[George Oscar Bluth II]

I have. Why dont you Google facial features? What does that even mean, "accurate portrayal"? There are only ever two or three characters in any Prince of Persia game, and tbh, it's a fantasy series. What about The Prince is inaccurate in Sands of Time, Warrior Within, Two Thrones and 2008? The fact that he's browner than an industry than that pushes for the fair and lovely? That he's being chased around by time gods, falling in love with Indian princesses and escaping absurd death traps? yeah I guess you're right, that is pretty inaccurate.

Yeah, screw making a character accurate to the title and setting. Make 'em all brown because that's how I see all people from the Middle East.

 

[Llyranor]

The story of Avatar, it's basically Last of the Mohicans, Dances with Wolves, Last Samurai, it's any of those stories. It's white colonialist fantasy, of... it's liberal guilt manifest, where it's like "I'm against my forefathers who came and pillaged your land, and I'm going to fight alongside of you, but then I'm also going to still rise to the top of you and become the best of you, because I'm still white. So you need me to embrace the best things about you while retaining my whiteness, and then using those combined forces to beat the old white people."

I always have a laugh when thinking about Forbidden Kingdom. Get hyped, kungfu fans, come see Jet Li and Jackie Chan fight each other!! Though, to get the audience to relate to this movie, let's get a no-name white guy to go back in time to ancient China so that he can be white Jesus and get the girl.

 

[envi123]

the majority of Asian roles get white washed all the time....

.

 

[Saint Gregory]

Because you can't pitch that to studio execs and financiers in the room all of whom are white and convince them they'll be able to stroke themselves.

Fixed that for you.

Hollywood throws away money all the time, the recent Death of Superman documentary was a wonderful commentary about this, but what Hollywood loves more than anything is telling stories about how wonderful they are.

What we see on the screen is white people always as the heroes but what we don't understand is that a lot of the time the actors are just avatars for rich men who finance these movies and use them to live out their fantasies of being beautiful and powerful.

 

[Chariot]

I always have a laugh when thinking about Forbidden Kingdom. Get hyped, kungfu fans, come see Jet Li and Jackie Chan fight each other!! Though, to get the audience to relate to this movie, let's get a no-name white guy to go back in time to ancient China so that he can be white Jesus and get the girl.

Oh god. I never saw that movie, but looked into a trailer now. God, why. It looked amazing, except for the very awkward white boy doing... whatever it is he's doing. God.

 

[DrForester]

I always think about this random-ass quote about Avatar from the late Ryan Davis of Giant Bomb.

The story of Avatar, it's basically Last of the Mohicans, Dances with Wolves, Last Samurai, it's any of those stories. It's white colonialist fantasy, of... it's liberal guilt manifest, where it's like "I'm against my forefathers who came and pillaged your land, and I'm going to fight alongside of you, but then I'm also going to still rise to the top of you and become the best of you, because I'm still white. So you need me to embrace the best things about you while retaining my whiteness, and then using those combined forces to beat the old white people."

I'd say Dances With Wolves is a little different, as Costner's character never really rises above the others in the tribe. He never single-handedly saves the tribe.

 

[Beach]

Spot the Mr. Whitey White non-Persian with white facial features or whatever that is.



Even if you take the modern Iran as an example of how ancient Persians looked like, Iran is a large country with various ethnic groups, different looks, whites, browns, even blacks to the far south. Yet everyone want it to be exclusively brown, because Middle East.



Lets see... Perhaps not making him look Indian or Arab, or at least give the characters some Persian names. 2008 and to some extent WW were the only games that used Persian names. Heck in Forgotten Sands some djin speaks Persian but the prince himself can't understand it.

I cannot cosign a post enough. Great post.

 

[theignoramus]

Jason Thomas, an African American,is a United States Marine who located and rescued people in the aftermath of collapse of the World Trade Center in New York City after the September 11 attacks in 2001. He was portrayed in Oliver Stone's feature film World Trade Center by white actor William Mapother. Stone has said he was not aware that Thomas was black until filming was already underway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Thomas
Black actors cant even get roles based on black people, lol.

 

[inky]

Yeah, those stories are kind of bullshit, though. Or at least it's bullshit that those are the kinds of stories that get told.

I always think about this random-ass quote about Avatar from the late Ryan Davis of Giant Bomb.

The story of Avatar, it's basically Last of the Mohicans, Dances with Wolves, Last Samurai, it's any of those stories. It's white colonialist fantasy, of... it's liberal guilt manifest, where it's like "I'm against my forefathers who came and pillaged your land, and I'm going to fight alongside of you, but then I'm also going to still rise to the top of you and become the best of you, because I'm still white. So you need me to embrace the best things about you while retaining my whiteness, and then using those combined forces to beat the old white people."

I'm saying why can't you just do a story that's about people in these cultures? Why does the story always have to be about some white guy coming to appreciate these cultures, as opposed to just telling a story about the people in these cultures, like they're actually human beings that have their own intrinsic value aside from making white people engage with the morality of their grandfathers?

I'm always reminded of that Ryan quote as well whenever one of these "foreign white guy becomes the leader of this native society" movies is mentioned. <3 Ryan.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Yeah, screw making a character accurate to the title and setting. Make 'em all brown because that's how I see all people from the Middle East.

Right because there aren't any brown dudes in Iran. Screw having a brown lead character because that is so common, let him be white because hey some people are fair skinned in Iran. Excuses excuses.

Spot the Mr. Whitey White non-Persian with white facial features or whatever that is.

Even if you take the modern Iran as an example of how ancient Persians looked like, Iran is a large country with various ethnic groups, different looks, whites, browns, even blacks to the far south. Yet everyone want it to be exclusively brown, because Middle East.

Lets see... Perhaps not making him look Indian or Arab, or at least give the characters some Persian names. 2008 and to some extent WW were the only games that used Persian names. Heck in Forgotten Sands some djin speaks Persian but the prince himself can't understand it.

Have you looked at Gylenhaal, he doesnt resemble that all. More like people want him to be brown because he's fucking brown in the games. Yeah, sure Iran is full of different skin tones, but it's convenient how that is the excuse to exclude darker tones. But hey if you want a white dude to play a persian guy, be my guest.

The Prince is intentionally nameless. So is the Vizier. The only people who have names in this series are the women, and even that's not a given. I guess there's also Malik but I guess that wouldn't fit your argument.

I cannot cosign a post enough. Great post.

I thought you wanted to be ignored.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

For me it depends on what they'll do with the source material. If they transfer the whole setting into the usa or europe it should be ok, but if it's still in Japan and Johansen goes by Kusanagi then it's bullshit.

I see your point but can't that also be whitewashing? I'll admit it would be less worse than making Scarlett Japanese working in the Japanese police but why adapt Ghost in the Shell and make it nothing about the main source? We already know Batou is going to be played by a white male also. I am giving this the benefit of the doubt but things aren't looking up right now.

 

[Boem]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Thomas
Black actors cant even get roles based on black people, lol.

I call bullshit on that (the actor's quote, not your comment). If you know you're going to play an actual person who was a 9/11 rescue worker, you'll have some time to prepare, and you do a little bit of research on who the actual person was. Even if it was just a little bit. I can't believe that, at no point prior to filming, the actor didn't see a picture of the guy he was portraying. That's the most basic level of research, takes less than a second to find. He's either the world's laziest actor, or he's lying to cover his ass.

Edit: Misread that, the director said it, not the actor. My point still stands though.

 

[Apt101]

This is one of those things that seems crazier than fiction. The more one looks into the individual occurrences, and then how often it occurs, the more insane it seems.

The fact that Scott was so candid about it goes to show Hollywood really doesn't give a shit.

 

[spekkeh]

Isn't the main problem with Prince of Persia that it's really an Arabian nights kind of story very similar to Aladdin, and so it really has very little to do with Persia in the first place? I mean the head of the state is called the Sultan (instead of Shah) and the vizier is even called Jaffar.

I'll grant you the characters look a bit more Indo-European than Arab, if you can even separate them, but the rest screams Arabian, more so than Persian.

In a sense Gyllenhaal looking kinda, a little bit, in certain light, Persian could be considered an improvement by Hollywood.

I think Prince of Persia might in fact be more or less the opposite of whitewashing. Orientalist stereotype (casting).

 

[Kinyou]

I see your point but can't that also be whitewashing? I'll admit it would be less worse than making Scarlett Japanese working in the Japanese police but why adapt Ghost in the Shell and make it nothing about the main source? We already know Batou is going to be played by a white male also. I am giving this the benefit of the doubt but things aren't looking up right now.

Transferring the setting into a new country isn't unusual for remakes (The Indian oldboy remake takes place in India, the Japanese remake of Ghost takes place in Japan), so I don't really see that as bad white washing. What the point of the remake is, is a fair question though and I'm not really sure myself what they hope to achieve.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

Transferring the setting into a new country isn't unusual for remakes (The Indian oldboy remake takes place in India, the Japanese remake of Ghost takes place in Japan), so I don't really see that as bad white washing. What the point of the remake is, is a fair question though and I'm not really sure myself what they hope to achieve.

Agreed. I wish they share soon what the hell's going on with that film.

 

[Apt101]

Isn't the main problem with Prince of Persia that it's really an Arabian nights kind of story very similar to Aladdin, and so it really has very little to do with Persia in the first place? I mean the head of the state is called the Sultan (instead of Shah) and the vizier is even called Jaffar.

I'll grant you the characters look a bit more Indo-European than Arab, if you can even separate them, but the rest screams Arabian, more so than Persian.

In a sense Gyllenhaal looking kinda, a little bit, in certain light, Persian could be considered an improvement by Hollywood.

I think Prince of Persia might in fact be more or less the opposite of whitewashing. Orientalist stereotype (casting).

I've only known one Iranian family, and they were proud they could trace their lineage back something like 300 years in Iran/Persia. The men in the family did kind of look white. I mean, if you saw them on the street it wouldn't be surprising if you mistook them for Europeans (one even had really light brown hair). So while it was a whitewashed casting decision, I agree with you, it wasn't nearly as bad as most others.

Gemma Atterton, however, was just about the whitest thing in that movie despite the tan.

 

[Mr.Squirrel]

It's amazing how the best actors for roles are almost always white though unless it's a "black movie"

So are white people just more talented than the rest of us are is there is a huge problem that needs to be addressed?

That's how white supremacy works. I can't wait for the Marcus Garvey documentary in 50 years starring a white actor with a British accent.

 

[Altairre]

I'm always reminded of that Ryan quote as well whenever one of these "foreign white guy becomes the leader of this native society" movies is mentioned. <3 Ryan.

I miss that guy. <>

 

[SeanC]

What we see on the screen is white people always as the heroes but what we don't understand is that a lot of the time the actors are just avatars for rich men who finance these movies and use them to live out their fantasies of being beautiful and powerful.

At its heart, Hollywood is white wish-fulfillment fantasy wank-fests.

And people wonder why there aren't enough roles for minorities or enough minority voices behind the camera as writers and directors. It's all establishment.

 

[CloudWolf]

I don't like how they used that 'Elba is too street' quote again when that was mostly just a miscommunication based on the fact that 'being street' has a different meaning in the United States than it has in the UK. In the same interview that writer gave an example of a black actor who'd he like to see as Bond for crying out loud. It was still a silly argument though, not because of implied racism, but because Daniel Craig was also a pretty street actor and got the Bond gig specifically because of that.

Great segment otherwise.

 

[Raven117]

I know right.

It pisses me off. It is totally not a white Savior movie. The white guy doesn't become proficient or receive an honor from the emperor. Nor does he remind the emperor of his sense of honor. The Japanese were not helpless until the white guy showed up.

This is not the Hollywood whitewashing.

I feel like a lot of people missed the point of the movie.

HAHA, yeah. The story is about the Japanese Samurai saving a broken Western man quite frankly. Yeah, he becomes a little too awesome at fighting like a Samurai, but...meh...Its a movie. The only thing the white guy did was help the rebellious samurai kill a few more of the emperors men in the final battle knowing how the soldiers would fight. And finish the rebellion by completing Katsumoto's mission of reminding the emperor of his history by taking Katsumotos sword to him. That's it.

I think its a great movie. (But made worse by Tom Cruise).

 

[Famassu]

Yeah, screw making a character accurate to the title and setting. Make 'em all brown because that's how I see all people from the Middle East.

While stereotyping minorities/certain region's characters is an issue in itself, I still think it's preferable to casting the whitest of the white Hollywood megastars & white-washing a large number of side characters & extras as well. It doesn't solve all of the casting & ethnicity/race problems, but it would be a step forward.

 

[Apt101]

I don't like how they used that 'Elba is too street' quote again when that was mostly just a miscommunication based on the fact that 'being street' has a different meaning in the United States than it has in the UK. In the same interview that writer gave an example of a black actor who'd he like to see as Bond for crying out loud. It was still a silly argument though, not because of implied racism, but because Daniel Craig was also a pretty street actor and got the Bond gig specifically because of that.

Great segment otherwise.

What does the term mean in the UK?

 

[Corronchilejano]

What does the term mean in the UK?

Someone used to doing things the hard way, brawn over brain. A bit less of the gentlemany figure James Bond usually evokes.

 

[Apt101]

Someone used to doing things the hard way, brawn over brain. A bit less of the gentlemany figure James Bond usually evokes.

I see, thanks. In the US that fits into the broad phrase "street smart".

 

[Bold One]

Someone used to doing things the hard way, brawn over brain. A bit less of the gentlemany figure James Bond usually evokes.

isnt that what Daniel Craig was?

 

[Boem]

Someone used to doing things the hard way, brawn over brain. A bit less of the gentlemany figure James Bond usually evokes.

Still doesn't make sense (not a criticism against you, just the original 'too street' quote). I would say novel Bond, Connery and Craig (the three names often in the running for 'definitive' Bond) all fit that description. Those three all strike me more as 'brawny' types than Elba tbh.

I can't say much about whether the original quote was racist though (only because I don't know enough about the context), but at best it was an enormously dumb comment to make. And, frankly, I don't feel like 'too street' is taken that differently in the UK as it is in the US or elsewhere. All my UK friends, my UK brother (and myself) all had the same immediate reaction to it as US people on this forum.

 

[Saint Gregory]

isnt that what Daniel Craig was?

My thought exactly. In fact, which Bond has ever really fit that description? Brosnan?

 

[Corronchilejano]

isnt that what Daniel Craig was?

I never said I agreed though

 

[Dabanton]

I certainly wouldn't say Daniel Craig was 'street' he was someone who looked bit rougher than previous Bonds.

 

[Matt]

Right because there aren't any brown dudes in Iran. Screw having a brown lead character because that is so common, let him be white because hey some people are fair skinned in Iran. Excuses excuses.


Have you looked at Gylenhaal, he doesnt resemble that all. More like people want him to be brown because he's fucking brown in the games. Yeah, sure Iran is full of different skin tones, but it's convenient how that is the excuse to exclude darker tones. But hey if you want a white dude to play a persian guy, be my guest.

The Prince is intentionally nameless. So is the Vizier. The only people who have names in this series are the women, and even that's not a given. I guess there's also Malik but I guess that wouldn't fit your argument.


I thought you wanted to be ignored.

But, you see, that's the problem. Ethnic Persians are pretty white. Darker skin tone in the current population is largely the result of the Arab invasion, and other population intermixing in more modern times. What you are doing is imposing a stereotype onto the Persian people, and then being pissy when the movie does not match up with your incorrect notions.

Persians are not Indian, they are not Arab, they are not Israeli. You can't criticize them for hiring a white guy to play the role of an ancient Persian prince (who actually looks pretty fucking close to how a member of old Persian nobility would look), and then suggest people who are both ethnically and physically further off from the part you are trying to cast.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

It's white-washing in a sense that it's YET ANOTHER movie where an exceptional white person goes to be among another culture and does exceptional things.

It's one of those cases where it wouldn't be that bad as a singular movie. If you just look at the merits of the movie without a larger context, The Last Samurai is not a horrible movie itself for telling the kind of story it does, but in the larger context, when it's the umpmillionth movie exactly like it in a world where Hollywood deliberately avoids doing movies about such cultures WITHOUT white leads, THAT'S when it becomes a bit of a problem & yet another example of white-washing. As a singular movie, it doesn't carry all the blame, it's just a single example in an ever-growing list of examples just like it and that makes it fair fodder for the white-washing argument.

That might be a decent point to make, but the video was clearly about whitewashed casting, not white-washed type of storytelling. The video basically claimed that the "last samurai" was intended to be Tom Cruise's character when it wasn't, and moreover, Tom Cruise wasn't playing a Japanese person in the movie.

Criticize the movie for what it does, sure, but not what it doesn't actually do.

 

[Septimus Prime]

Oh, hello.

 

[CloudWolf]

isnt that what Daniel Craig was?

Yeah, that's why I said it was a silly argument. Daniel Craig was chosen because he was "more street" since Casino Royale was to be a return to the book Bond who was more brawn over brains.

 

[MHWilliams]

This is one of those things that seems crazier than fiction. The more one looks into the individual occurrences, and then how often it occurs, the more insane it seems.

It's the HTown principle of a sort. You can look at individual decisions and see many weren't meant with any malice, but as you extrapolate outwards and see the whole picture, it becomes clear that there are significant issues.

I see your point but can't that also be whitewashing? I'll admit it would be less worse than making Scarlett Japanese working in the Japanese police but why adapt Ghost in the Shell and make it nothing about the main source? We already know Batou is going to be played by a white male also. I am giving this the benefit of the doubt but things aren't looking up right now.

That's an adaptation at that point. For example, The Departed shares the same core as Infernal Affairs, but it's a far different picture that stands on its own quite well. That's how adaptations should be done, instead of sticking wholeheartedly to the source material.

A Ghost in the Shell film where Scarlett plays Kusanagi and Pilou Asbæk plays Batou could be explained in world to a point. Kusanagi is a full-body cyborg, wheareas Batou is the pain point, being only partially cybernetic. It's better for them to work with the basic core of the story and transport it to a place where the actors make sense. that would include renaming the primary characters.

And yes, Prince of Persia's casting was actually rather solid, considering the old Persian Empire actually bordered the Caucasus Mountains, where the term "Caucasians" originates. This is one of those things where Hollywood/literary reality has outstripped the actual truth.

 

[KenzinFive]

Oh, hello.

Holy Christ, this movie made me so angry after I saw it. It was billed as JET LI VS/WITH JACKIE CHAN and instead they're fucking side characters and it's about about a goddamn white guy from 2008 Boston being sucked into an Chinese myth/kung fu movie as the hero. He's literally almost the only fucking white person in the movie, but he's still the protagonist.

They couldn't even fucking trust Jackie Chan and Jet Li to helm a movie by themselves. They get top billing, but they aren't even the protagonists of their own movie. It was insulting that producers/writers/director thought that American audiences needed a modern white person's perspective for this thing. Like pushing the humans in Transformers movies as important, when we only came to the movie to watch CGI robots fight each other.

Here's the poster that MOST people saw and the focus of the marketing:

 

[Llyranor]

Oh, hello.

The star power of Michael Angarano is what led crowds to go see the movie in droves. Without his name associated with the movie, getting the movie made would have been impossible.

 

[Androidsleeps]

I see you are outsourcing your racism problems now. You can't put just blame China for everything.

I'm not (also I'm not white), Hollywood has always been biased and kinda racist and sexist..but it's getting worse in recent years, but it fucking shouldn't, but it is. Im not comparing today with the 60s and 50s (as clearly things are better than that today) but more like 90s and early 00s.

 

[Septimus Prime]

The star power of Michael Angarano is what led crowds to go see the movie in droves. Without his name associated with the movie, getting the movie made would have been impossible.

Yeah, man. Seeing his name, I knew that I would pay to see the star of such classics, as ... and ...

...

 

[KenzinFive]

Yeah, man. Seeing his name, I knew that I would pay to see the star of such classics, as ... and ...

...

The studio blew all their money on getting Jet Li and Jackie Chan, plus the special effects.

But they just gotta have a white guy to star in it!