So, I need to change my stance over Racist because Im as bad as a Racist that hates me because of my color???? ok, yeah sure.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Jonathan Pie - Why The Left is Responsible For This Stunning Loss
- Thread starter Armadilo
- Start date
- Status
So, I need to change my stance over Racist because Im as bad as a Racist that hates me because of my color???? ok, yeah sure.
legacyzero
Banned
When your campaign ads are dripping with PC outrage of "TRUMP BAAAAD" while failing to deliver any substantial reason to support HER as a candidate, REGARDLESS of Trump, yeah. That's what I'm saying.
It appears you're too closed to realize it's the same concept.
jack_package_200
Banned
All of this.
Hoho for breakfast
Member
Exactly. I absolutely can't stand Clinton partly because of those reasons. At the same time I'm not going to go around pretending that her supporters therefore also support all that nonsense. People are extremely emotional right now (with good reason) but I hope that cooler heads can prevail here.
the liberals just weren't politically correct enough, i guess
maybe if hillary said she felt entitled to grab the collective pussy of white women voters she would have won that demographic
joking aside, the real solution is just to lie
those "economically anxious" people were swayed with fiery rhetoric about "making things [non-specifically great]!" and "getting those manufacturing jobs back [somehow, even though the automation crisis is coming anyways]!"
whereas hillary offered tangible policy that reflected the limits of reality and proposals that established a foundation upon which dreams could actually be step by step made into reality
i thought the latter would be more appealing to the "economically anxious" since they have a lot at stake and would prefer the security of plans over hollow cheers, but i guess not
so let's just lie to them too
maybe if hillary said she felt entitled to grab the collective pussy of white women voters she would have won that demographic
joking aside, the real solution is just to lie
those "economically anxious" people were swayed with fiery rhetoric about "making things [non-specifically great]!" and "getting those manufacturing jobs back [somehow, even though the automation crisis is coming anyways]!"
whereas hillary offered tangible policy that reflected the limits of reality and proposals that established a foundation upon which dreams could actually be step by step made into reality
i thought the latter would be more appealing to the "economically anxious" since they have a lot at stake and would prefer the security of plans over hollow cheers, but i guess not
so let's just lie to them too
Let's get all this shit out now. If we don't get it out and regroup in the right way for 2018 then shit is even more fucked (that may not seem possible right now, but it is). And I say 2018 and not 2020 because Dems NEED to get their fucking shit together for mid terms. Having a Dem President is not nearly enough and we should have learned that by now.
Wowfunhappy
Member
How many major Trump policies weren't steeped in racism, sexism, etc.? He had very few policy positions to begin with. The ones I'm aware of off the top of my head are:
• "We need to build a wall to keep the Mexicans out."
• "We need to put a stop to all the black crime in the inner cities."
• "Global Warming is a hoax created by the Chinese."
• "Our taxes are much too high."
I count three racist policies and one non racist policy.
I'm sure there are more policies I'm forgetting, feel free to remind me of some. I'm leaving out stuff like "Obama is a failure" and "We're going to make America great again," because they're too nonspecific to really be called policies.
If people want to do the whole blame game, this is a decent article: http://thebaffler.com/blog/round-up-recriminations-pein
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Funny how people always want to attribute blame to a single person, entity or event.
In this case however, I agree. Sure there were other factors at play, but at the end of the day I think it was this general leftist attitude of being better than the right, whilte at the same time not being willing to engage with them, that made the right wing voters especially motivated to elect Trump and a similar attitude towards parts of the left wing itself, that disenfranchises far left voters and turned undecided voters away from Clinton.
In this case however, I agree. Sure there were other factors at play, but at the end of the day I think it was this general leftist attitude of being better than the right, whilte at the same time not being willing to engage with them, that made the right wing voters especially motivated to elect Trump and a similar attitude towards parts of the left wing itself, that disenfranchises far left voters and turned undecided voters away from Clinton.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Not that it wasn't happening before the election but post like demonstrate that people really believe that people who are tired of being treated less than human are real problem and not the bigots.
Carl2291
Member
Change your stance? Nah, by all means fight against racism.
People should just stop shouting down any other opinion as racist, sexist, bigoted, homophobic, xenophobic or whatever other ism and phobias people get labelled with for the slightest difference of opinion. That's what the video is about.
I don't think calling out Trump supporters is a reason why Clinton lost, but I do think calling them out is a big reason the polls were so wrong. People wouldn't even admit they might be thinking of voting for Trump because of fear of being called out. It just led to a lot of silent Trump supporters.
Before the election I assumed GAF had very few Trump supporters but we know now that wasn't the case. I don't blame them for keeping quiet. The moment they posted anything led to a page of insults. I'm not saying we could have changed their vote if we were more civil but sometimes I think the insults went overboard.
yep
because as we've found out
being called racist is so much worse than actually being racist, for while people
teruterubozu
Member
I cannot get over how divided we are. This is incredible sad
Seriously. This is going to hurt for awhile. I don't have much faith we'll patch it up by the midterms.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I see the internet and especially the alt-right has done an excellent job of entrenching the specter of the PC Police Safe Space Tumblr Army into popular consciousness. To the point that calling out even basic, textbook examples of racism or bigotry now just seems like PC whining to a lot of people.
PastorOfMuppets
Banned
Fuck this guy. He's another one of those finger wagging progressive with caveats types blaming the SJW movement. The SJW movement has not been able to get farther than university campuses in North America. A 21 year old trans activist went on Twitter one time and said "Kill All Cis Males" and you guys responded by voting an openly racist 1% into the White House along with his openly homophobic running mate and think that the SJW movement is the one ruining society. Yeah, go fuck yourselves.
All Trump supporters. White ones (60% of white people voted Trump) and the various minorities groups that voted for him (29% Hispanic support, 8% black support, 29% Asian-American support) at best, are responsible for passively supporting his bigotry. I don't wanna hear how Clinton was so corrupt, or how she had no charisma or how disenfranchised working class whites were or that Trump's tax plan was awesome. There was no hidden agenda behind his message, he spelled it out plainly and clearly in his inflammatory remarks and if you voted for him - even if not for those reasons, you still thought it was acceptable enough to gloss over it and vote in someone who was openly racist and had an openly homophobic running mate. That's bigotry. Plain and simple. You don't get to absolve yourself of the responsibility because you never personally told a Muslim to go back to his country. And yes, #AllTrumpSupporters, without exception.
I swear, it's like the white moderate out there seems to think that voting for Obama, fucking an Asian woman, marching in a Pride Parade and eating at Taco Bell every now and then makes them open minded and deserving of our praise.
All Trump supporters. White ones (60% of white people voted Trump) and the various minorities groups that voted for him (29% Hispanic support, 8% black support, 29% Asian-American support) at best, are responsible for passively supporting his bigotry. I don't wanna hear how Clinton was so corrupt, or how she had no charisma or how disenfranchised working class whites were or that Trump's tax plan was awesome. There was no hidden agenda behind his message, he spelled it out plainly and clearly in his inflammatory remarks and if you voted for him - even if not for those reasons, you still thought it was acceptable enough to gloss over it and vote in someone who was openly racist and had an openly homophobic running mate. That's bigotry. Plain and simple. You don't get to absolve yourself of the responsibility because you never personally told a Muslim to go back to his country. And yes, #AllTrumpSupporters, without exception.
I swear, it's like the white moderate out there seems to think that voting for Obama, fucking an Asian woman, marching in a Pride Parade and eating at Taco Bell every now and then makes them open minded and deserving of our praise.
funkystudent
Member
The arrogant "I AM BETTER THEN EVERYONE" attitude from some on the left has poisoned a lot of wells and simply turned more wishy washy voters off. At best it pushed people voting 3rd party and at least contribute to the system at worst people decided not to vote at all.
In fighting and hostility to any slight opposing view will bury the left in the US if they cant get it together. We have seen that happen in the UK already.
Most of the people who voted for Trump where probably always going to vote for him. By all means shit on them.
In fighting and hostility to any slight opposing view will bury the left in the US if they cant get it together. We have seen that happen in the UK already.
Most of the people who voted for Trump where probably always going to vote for him. By all means shit on them.
UltimaPooh
Member
The midterms are two years away... There will be plenty of patching and working together again.
Right now everyone is being introspective. It hasn't even been a week yet.
And it's good that were are being this decisive because it creates great discussion on where to go from here.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
1. This is so fucking infantile. Trump did not get elected because lefties called his supporters racist, which they are.
2. Even the simplest inquiry into whether this is true starts with, "ok, what would be the outcome if this were the inverse situation?" Where liberals did NOT call out Trump and his supporters for being xenophobic authoritarians empowering a simpleton madman? He'd get elected anyway, but they'd get blamed for not alerting the world to the danger. Congrats, maybe the polls were more accurate.
3. I want desperately to find a simple explanation but there isn't one. I'm going to write an article and it's going to be something like "35 things to blame for Trump getting elected." Alerting the world to racist motivations by the left is not one of them.
2. Even the simplest inquiry into whether this is true starts with, "ok, what would be the outcome if this were the inverse situation?" Where liberals did NOT call out Trump and his supporters for being xenophobic authoritarians empowering a simpleton madman? He'd get elected anyway, but they'd get blamed for not alerting the world to the danger. Congrats, maybe the polls were more accurate.
3. I want desperately to find a simple explanation but there isn't one. I'm going to write an article and it's going to be something like "35 things to blame for Trump getting elected." Alerting the world to racist motivations by the left is not one of them.
indeed, who's to say. my point was this: i know many anti-war, anti-middle east intervention leftists who voted for (hawkish) hillary because they thought her opponent was just that dangerous.
it stands to reason that there were people on the other side who don't find trump and everything he says totally acceptable, but voted for him anyway because to them the alternative was just that bad.
jack_package_200
Banned
If you know your opinions are shitty and terrible, don't have the shitty and terrible opinions.
Dude Abides
Banned
"you don't persuade people by yelling at them."
Proceeds to shout for 3 minutes.
Proceeds to shout for 3 minutes.
Clinton, her campaign, and the DNC is responsible for the loss of the election. They are the ones who needed to court rural whites and switch voters, not random liberals on the internet. Don't get me wrong: calling all non-Hilary supporters racists and bigots is extremely counter-productive, and I don't want to see it on Gaf. However, it's not the Internet's responsibility to do whatever they can to get people to vote for Hilary.
broncobuster
Banned
Elsewhere I've seen this video primarily shared by those who didn't vote or spending months doing this,
I'd recommend watching Van Jones' brief Messy Truth videos. Thread was made but sadly didn't pick up traction.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1312026
I'd recommend watching Van Jones' brief Messy Truth videos. Thread was made but sadly didn't pick up traction.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1312026
Bobby Boulders
Member
Am I reading this wrong or did you just not watch the video? Pie literally calls out all of those points above as contributing to Trump's rise. He spends half the video talking about how terrible of a candidate Clinton was and how her campaign and the DNC fucked themselves over.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
Haha, that's hilarious. I think about two years ago, a mod banned me and the message was something along the lines of "think about what you've done" without linking a single post on what the actual issue was. It was the equivalent of a passive aggressive high schooler trying to scold me. I'm not saying I don't deserve it because I say dumb shit on a daily basis, but the way it was handled was comical. Another mod closed a topic two days ago about Hillary not congratulating her people but sending someone to tell them to GTFO. She got a ton of heat of it, and a mod couldn't handle the silliness ensuing and closed it shortly afterwards.
The inability for people to have proper discussions on religion, politics and social issues on gaf is quite alarming. Whenever you even have a slightly different view, people lose their shit and act like children. Don't listen to the other perspective and just yell and cry until they go away or say/do what you want. You don't really see great discussions of different views or opinions spanning for pages where potentially both sides can learn something, or even just one when they see another way. Off topic is amazing for silly/funny topics and basically quick glances on issues that you can really discuss. That's what I've got out of it anyways.
jakonovski
Member
Lemme try a new angle: there's instant gratification in always telling someone off, but often it doesn't move your cause forward. Look at the stakes and choose which one is more important.
It doesn't matter if this is correct. Fight against bigotry, but don't go around calling Trump voters racist bigots if you want democrats to ever regain power any time soon. Dismissing an entire group of people as nothing but racist bigots does nothing to help elect democrats. Democrats did not lose the union vote because they are all racist. They lost the union vote because they are struggling, but kept getting called "stupid rednecks" or told "look at the numbers idiot". Democrats ignored their (true) issues of disappearing manufacturing jobs and Trump was able to tap into that frustration.
You keep saying that they have a "privileged" position, and thus don't deserve to complain. To them they sure as hell don't feel "privileged". The demonization of the white working class is not doing democrats any favors, and just going to push them further away.
MHWilliams
Member
Some feel justified in their anger. And wish to blame those on a similar side than those who voted for the other guy.
I disagree, but people can vent.
That said, duplicate thread. Go here.
Vermillion
Banned
I understand your anger, especially in these past few days. The thing is - has anyone changed the behavior of others just by calling them out? Personally, I think part of the reason I ended up in the echo chamber that blindsided me this election is because when you silence opinions, you don't change them. People will nod their heads in public, then quietly vote Trump. Or worse, they'll straight up attack you for calling them out, then vote Trump. It's a consistent truth when it comes to winning people over - you don't win them over by shaming them.
And I 100% understand the desire to. I'm a minority myself, with pretty dark skin. There's only so much you can take before you want to lash out at the other person. I'm trying to keep myself calmer because I realize that only serves me. It hurts, but it only serves me. Every person I attack can turn into a bitter enemy. That holds true on both the micro and macro scales.
Don't accept bigotry. Don't stop fighting against bigotry. All I'd say is to consider if your methods win people over or silently divide them further.
I won't blame people, especially members of genuinely victimised groups (minorities, LGBT, etc.), for not wanting to budge on finding those that voted against Clinton partially responsible for electing Trump and all of the problems it will and already is causing. Always call out bigotry, don't fucking budge.
However, living in a Leftist echo chamber for the next 2-4 (or even 8) years will lose election after election after election. Using any opportunity to jump on someone and shout 'BIGOT!' is not the way forward. I'm fairly certain the majority of Trump voters couldn't give two shits about being labelled as anything as long as they can get consistent work good enough to put food on their table. In my opinion, you can never blame the Electorate for a result. Don't be disappointed in 'White racists', don't be disappointed in the complacent Liberals that didn't vote. Blame the candidates that don't inspire people to vote for what they believe in, and instead 'protest vote' in the hope of seeing their way of lives restored and an escape from literal poverty.
However, living in a Leftist echo chamber for the next 2-4 (or even 8) years will lose election after election after election. Using any opportunity to jump on someone and shout 'BIGOT!' is not the way forward. I'm fairly certain the majority of Trump voters couldn't give two shits about being labelled as anything as long as they can get consistent work good enough to put food on their table. In my opinion, you can never blame the Electorate for a result. Don't be disappointed in 'White racists', don't be disappointed in the complacent Liberals that didn't vote. Blame the candidates that don't inspire people to vote for what they believe in, and instead 'protest vote' in the hope of seeing their way of lives restored and an escape from literal poverty.
UltimaPooh
Member
Injustice anywhere is still injustice everywhere.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
Some of them are. There where bad Bernie Bros. And HillaryGAF did take it way too far in generalizing, but look- It will never be okay to treat people poorly because they treated you poorly. Some Hillary supporters made a mistake, but it was in the spew of a bitter primary. And it also came out of that many places on the internet you would get yelled at and mistreated for being with Hillary. This happened.
NeoGAF became one of the strongest public battlegrounds for Hillary online. Who knows if it made a difference in the larger scheme of things, but both sides are off the same coins. On reddit the information was too extreme towards Bernie and here it was the other way.
Proper self reflection demands that it takes two to tango. Bernie Sanders would not be interested in people attacking Clinton. He supported her because he knew what was at stake, and she endorsed a lot of his platform. So let us not get our pitchforks after Clinton supporters.
If we mistreat each others over mistakes we never learn. And throughout the last 1,5 years both sides have been at each other throat- Hillary said this, Bernie did that. We've always been 1up'ing each other.
At a certain point during the primary, it felt like we were 4-5 bernie supporters on this board. Sure it became one sided discussions, but that's just how it is. We always want 50/50 balanced discussions where we have equal representation of the opinions, but we often also want to agree. GAF was a place where someone had your back if you were for Hillary. Most other places online were anti-Hillary. You have to forgive that GAF swung one way. I don't think it could be avoided.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
Can a mod merge the longer thread into this one please?
MHWilliams
Member
Truth.
legacyzero
Banned
Sorry for the dupe thread- I'm shit at searching on mobile
MHWilliams
Member
Sorry for the dupe thread- I'm shit at searching on mobile
S'all good. It happens. Someone asked for a thread merge, which was a better option.
I would say that SJWism is basically liberal navel gazing. It's like some shit liberals talk about amongst themselves but most people don't really understand or think about at a deep level (past like don't say the N word to a black person).
I agree that it didn't lose the election, but focusing on it as if it's something that actually resonates as important to a majority isn't really helping to win elections. Even if the principles behind it are widely accepted, the rhetoric itself is a fringe worldview.
Explain what you mean by "PC outrage rules all discussion that's left." I get a little tired of you people throwing out these vaugue accusations while retreating from real discussion.
The trappings of white supremacy led to this mess on both sides of this election. If you genuinely want to get to the root of all of these issues, then you had better get cracking on de-tangling that shit. This self centered outlook on life that this round of voters have been displaying from day one WILL be passed on to your kids. Especially the so-called moderate liberals. *side eye like a motherfucker for every last one of you*. Blame everyone else except for your own role with passive aggressive jabs, and turning away from every confrontation that you swore that you signed up for. The Moderate.
Minorities ain't going to do it for you and then shoulder the blame for when you fuck it up again.
Minorities ain't going to do it for you and then shoulder the blame for when you fuck it up again.
CopperPuppy
Member
One of the silliest pieces of commentary to spring forth from Trump's win is this notion that it was somehow the result of liberals persecuting his supporters. The disturbing implication of this sentiment is its bewildering disregard of the real, tangible persecution inflicted by this election: that directed by Trump and his supporters toward anyone different from them.
You haven't been following him very closely. His most important policy position is "I'm gonna spend 1 trillion fon infrastructure in 10 years" and "end NAFTA/TPP" and "tax the fuck out of companies that offshore jobs"
Thats what won him the rust belt.
Always gonna be people telling you that fighting for the right thing is 'hurting your cause overall'.
Same shit different decade.
plasmawave
Banned
That would be the case IF the other option didn't literally say that he is in favor of war crimes and the use of nuclear weapons and is expected to do even worst than all this
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Yep. If there is anything that will lead us to losing again is the people trying to normalize the behavior of trump supports.
MHWilliams
Member
Oooohhh, that image is a keeper. I've known this was true, but in handy infographic form!
Yes? You are responsible for the actions of the government you vote for.
Vermillion
Banned
Do you believe there's a difference between fighting for the right thing and shutting down the thoughts and feelings of others?
- Status