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[iamblades]

I would say that SJWism is basically liberal navel gazing. It's like some shit liberals talk about amongst themselves but most people don't really understand or think about at a deep level (past like don't say the N word to a black person).

I agree that it didn't lose the election, but focusing on it as if it's something that actually resonates as important to a majority isn't really helping to win elections. Even if the principles behind it are widely accepted, the rhetoric itself is a fringe worldview.

I think there is a deep and widening disconnect culturally.

The left seems to see class as solely an economic matter, but I think there is a very important part of it that is cultural.

I think there is a large group of people who make decent money, but feel mocked and looked down on by the leftist elites because they work with their hands.

Cultural speaking, your average blue collar ironworker or machinist is certain to have more in common with the republicans than the ivory tower liberals. Now race is a part of this, but it's more than just that, because in my experience working alongside union electricians and millwrights is that it's not just the white guys who feel this way.

 

[FriedConsole]

I'm confused about this people being afraid to admit they support Trump in the polls... i mean, why would they, only you and the damn pollster know whats up. (and also Trump supporters were and are, fucking brazen, especially on social media)

I don't know maybe a mob of people pushing that they should lose their jobs if they support Trump? Social media right wingers are usually people with nothing to lose Internet shut-ins.

 

[triplestation]

lol this guy thinks he is it

it's not as complicated as he wants to make it seem, most voters aren't seasoned politicians

when you cut through all the fluff it's the liberal culture and minorities vs the old West (and plenty of it)

 

[BajiBoxer]

He's not wrong.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=224059779&postcount=338

So, being an ass when someone offered their own meaningless hot take cost Democrats the election. Not seeing a major problem here. If that's what cost us the election, then lets face it, we're completely fucked.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

One of the silliest pieces of commentary to spring forth from Trump's win is this notion that it was somehow the result of liberals persecuting his supporters. The disturbing implication of this sentiment is its bewildering disregard of the real, tangible persecution inflicted by this election: that directed by Trump and his supporters toward anyone different from them.

I understand and agree 100%. Yet, Trump won. So either you choose to believe that there are 60 million horrible people in America that we should continue to demonize; or you consider that there may be underlying fears, struggles, desperation that drove them to support Trump. I would argue that the 'demonizing' approach didn't work for Clinton. I would argue that by and large Trump won because there were enough people out there that were afraid enough, desperate enough, poor enough, uneducated enough, struggling enough to vote for him because he provided scapegoats, easy answers and plenty of personality. If she had attempted to speak to the underlying issues, if she spoke to how people perceive things to be, rather than trying to educate everyone on facts, if she made more of an effort to meet people where they are at, she would have likely won more votes.

 

[plasmawave]

So, being an ass when someone offered their own meaningless hot take cost Democrats the election. Not seeing a major problem here. If that's what cost us the election, then lets face it, we're completely fucked.

It sure doesn't help.

 

[Lime]

The trappings of white supremacy led to this mess on both sides of this election. If you genuinely want to get to the root of all of these issues, then you had better get cracking on de-tangling that shit. This self centered outlook on life that this round of voters have been displaying from day one WILL be passed on to your kids. Especially the so-called moderate liberals. *side eye like a motherfucker for every last one of you*. Blame everyone else except for your own role with passive aggressive jabs, and turning away from every confrontation that you swore that you signed up for. The Moderate.
Minorities ain't going to do it for you and then shoulder the blame for when you fuck it up again.

Yep, no arguments here. Along with white supremacy, I'd throw in unregulated capitalism into the pile as well.

 

[Henkka]

Always gonna be people telling you that fighting for the right thing is 'hurting your cause overall'.

It's not that you shouldn't fight for the right thing.

It's that the way you went about it brought about the opposite result of what you wanted.

Fighting against racism is absolutely the right thing to do... But we've now had a couple of years of identity politics, safe spaces, outrage over Halloween costumes and such. What do you have to show for it? Are race relations now better? No! We have people wanting separate "PoC-only spaces", for god's sake. Everyone's identifying by their race first and foremost, and separating themselves.

 

[John Rabbit]

This is a worthless post.

lol this is a great post.

 

[MHWilliams]

Note, if the argument is identity politics pushed voters to Trump, then you are acknowledging a racial and sexual animus for that vote. Which people have repeatedly tried to say is not the point?

 

[jorma]

You haven't been following him very closely. His most important policy position is "I'm gonna spend 1 trillion fon infrastructure in 10 years" and "end NAFTA/TPP" and "tax the fuck out of companies that offshore jobs"

Thats what won him the rust belt.

Add to that that the democrats basically told white blue collars to fuck off, they weren't needed because they'd just get two replacement republicans for every one that left the fold.
I mean i just found out about that today and now i don't really wonder why Hillary lost any longer. Unbelievable.

 

[Audioboxer]

Sounds like what some GAFers wanted to rant off their chest during the election and got told GTFO!

I agree with large chunks of what he said, although a lot of it is ramped up to 10 for comedic value. The left is causing so many of it's own problems these days, especially scorching the earth with it's own supporters. If we continue to ignore our own house and it's crumbling then we will continue to be further marginalised and get more shit like Tories/Brexit and Trump. Just like this comic said.

Consistently crying about hindsight will not fix anything. This topic serves for anecdotal evidence for most to miss the point. The response to this guy is to instantly at haste focus on being angry/upset at Trump supporters. Newsflash, the left NOT voting for it's own candidate and being in turmoil about it's own people lost this vote. That is precisely the point, people on the left are getting fucked off with people on the left, and when you put a crap candidate forward as well it creates the perfect storm where Trump wins.

 

[Lime]

Note, if the argument is identity politics pushed voters to Trump, then you are acknowledging a racial and sexual animus for that vote. Which people have repeatedly tried to say is not the point?

To me, Naomi Klein captured the factors well: "Without white supremacy + misogyny, Trump could not have won. But the rubble created by neoliberalism is a major factor too."

 

[BajiBoxer]

Do you believe there's a difference between fighting for the right thing and shutting down the thoughts and feelings of others?

So, what do you want? Are you talking forum specific?

 

[legacyzero]

Note, if the argument is identity politics pushed voters to Trump, then you are acknowledging a racial and sexual animus for that vote. Which people have repeatedly tried to say is not the point?

I would argue that identity politics took the forefront for Clinton Supporters, which put blinders to the truth that Hillary was a terrible candidate, and the populists like Bernie and Trump were her Kryptonite.

 

[Legato.Reborn-]

I love this video. It represents so much of what I feel about society, and especially here on GAF. The point of a forum like this is to engage in debate, not be forced into silence by a group of people who don't agree with you. I've tried to have conversations in the Off-Topic forum but almost every time, I get attacked by multiple people who don't want to hear what I'm saying.

I'm a white male, left leaning, progressive Democrat. I'm the son of two immigrant parents (Italy and Lebanon), and have family members who are now in a precarious place because of the election. I'm also a police officer, and have strong feelings about my profession, as well as the issues in it. I'm very open to discussing how the police and community can better get along. It's necessary. When people learn that I'm an officer? I'm part of the racist movement to keep people of color down. How about the fact that I became an officer to help people from getting crapped on by people who don't value the lives of others? Someone needs to speak for victims; that's what I try to do everyday. Nope, I'm a pig. I have no desire to post in a police related thread again.

When the Colin Kaepernick protests started, I voiced my opinion in how I respect his right to protest, I just didn't agree with HOW he was doing it. Nothing disrespectful, nothing inflammatory....I was banned. The message I received from a mod: "Take your asshole opinions somewhere else, guy". Many of my posts have "I don't know, maybe I'm wrong" in them. I want to have debates. I want to be able to discuss what I'm feeling.

This is not right. People talk about safe zones, echo chambers, etc., but don't realize that we in one right here. Same thing on the gaming side of GAF to a certain extent. Those 1st party review threads? Oh boy. Get your helmet on. I don't want to be afraid to discuss things here. I hate the fact that I was banned for having an opinion, yet didn't come close to violates any of the TOS. I think we can do better.

Thanks for your public service and for keeping my property safe. Be careful out there in these divisive times.

 

[jakonovski]

Note, if the argument is identity politics pushed voters to Trump, then you are acknowledging a racial and sexual animus for that vote. Which people have repeatedly tried to say is not the point?

Cause: Don't visit important states and call people with certain still widely held opinions "deplorables".
Reaction: They don't vote for you, or switch their vote to the other side.
Effect: President Trump.

 

[gutter_trash]

again this guy? 3rd time today on OT gaf, another should've, would've, could've ranter

lost credibility when he said that May is more Left than Hillary

If you need to be ''enthused' into voting for charisma over policy than you are a baby

enjoy your charismatic authoritarian with shitty policies.

 

[MHWilliams]

I would argue that identity politics took the forefront for Clinton Supporters, which put blinders to the truth that Hillary was a terrible candidate, and the populists like Bernie and Trump were her Kryptonite.

Or people simply supported Clinton's policies over Sanders'.

If Clinton Supporters are a hive mind that absolutely did wrong in all aspects, what is the take on Trump Supporters and Sanders Supporters?

Cause: Don't visit important states and call people with certain still widely held opinions "deplorables".
Reaction: They don't vote for you, or switch their vote to the other side.
Effect: President Trump.

The bolded is largely the problem. A lack of attention.

I do find it endlessly interesting that "straight shooting" is prized only to a point.

 

[BajiBoxer]

It sure doesn't help.

It's kind of a wash. You're saying the left needs to coddle people who are being asses, but at the same time are too PC. It's a mixed message.

 

[Lime]

I do find it endlessly interesting that "straight shooting" is prized only to a point.

This is such a good point I hadn't considered.

 

[D i Z]

Cause: Don't visit important states and call people with certain still widely held opinions "deplorables".
Reaction: They don't vote for you, or switch their vote to the other side.
Effect: President Trump.

To be fair, when she called young black men "super predators" everyone loved it.
It worked wonders for that industrial prison complex that people always dreamt of.



I wonder what changed....

 

[droggg]

Based on the posts in this thread thus far I'd say that just like the DNC itself, much of the left has a total lack of self-awareness and will unknowingly continue to dig it's own grave deeper and deeper. I always considered myself to be a liberal democrat (voted that way all my life) but the direction this party and it's supporters has taken is totally self destructive and against everything I feel the party stands for. I hope this trend does not continue but at this point I've lost pretty much all hope that this will happen.

 

[Audioboxer]

Or people simply supported Clinton's policies over Sanders'.

If Clinton Supporters are a hive mind that absolutely did wrong in all aspects, what is the take on Trump Supporters and Sanders Supporters?



The bolded is largely the problem. A lack of attention.

I do find it endlessly interesting that "straight shooting" is prized only to a point.

Not all Clinton supporters, and yes some Sanders too. As a mod on GAF though you had a birdseye view to what some are feeding back as a rather rough ride for liberals with a different opinion on GAF (Notably on Sanders vs Hillary, or even just being critical of Hillary). The left was incredibly hostile to it's own people on GAF, or at least that's how many feel.

There's having a difference of opinions as this comic states, and engaging, and then there was hyperbole calling Sanders supporters sexist as they wouldn't just get on board with Hillary... It was a right mess.

Again you can disagree with the prevalence of the above, even to the point of feeling it didn't happen at all, but we are in the situation we are now with a terrible Democrat turnout and Hillary losing, and how many of us want a repeat of that again in 2020? Time to hash out what went wrong within the left.

 

[D i Z]

Based on the posts in this thread thus far I'd say that just like the DNC itself, much of the left has a total lack of self-awareness and will unknowingly continue to dig it's own grave deeper and deeper. I always considered myself to be a liberal democrat (voted that way all my life) but the direction this party and it's supporters has taken is totally self destructive and against everything I feel the party stands for. I hope this trend does not continue but at this point I've lost pretty much all hope that this will happen.

Because of one bad election cycle? When this happened over the past eight years, it was ok then because we got the win?
I wouldn't think to question this if it were about a shift in policy, and not just about how political infighting has been... forever.

 

[chillybright]

I don't think calling out Trump supporters is a reason why Clinton lost, but I do think calling them out is a big reason the polls were so wrong. People wouldn't even admit they might be thinking of voting for Trump because of fear of being called out. It just led to a lot of silent Trump supporters.

Before the election I assumed GAF had very few Trump supporters but we know now that wasn't the case. I don't blame them for keeping quiet. The moment they posted anything led to a page of insults. I'm not saying we could have changed their vote if we were more civil but sometimes I think the insults went overboard.

Agreed.

He's not wrong.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=224059779&postcount=338

Man I read this post and I was like wtf are you for real?

 

[AnotherDayAnotherDollar]

"Stop thinking that everyone who disagrees with you is evil, racist, sexist, or stupid and talk to them."

Perfect closing.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

You haven't been following him very closely. His most important policy position is "I'm gonna spend 1 trillion fon infrastructure in 10 years" and "end NAFTA/TPP" and "tax the fuck out of companies that offshore jobs"

Thats what won him the rust belt.

The first and second policies were things Trump and Clinton actually agreed about. Well, I don't think Clinton was planning to spend 1 trillion, but she stated many times that she wanted to improve our infrastructure. While neither policy is racist, anyone voting for Trump over Clinton on the basis of those two things is out of touch with reality.

I don't recall Trump ever saying he was going to "tax the fuck" out of companies that offshore jobs. He said he was going to bring them back to the US, but never how. And he said he was going to punish China for taking our jobs, which, again, I think was a statement steeped with tons of racist connotations.

 

[War Peaceman]

I'll cross post this because it is more relevant here


I don't buy the argument of liberal intolerance. It is a pathetic argument. Whilst there are definitely times when people have been trigger happy to call people racists/sexists/etc., I don't think it really applies in the case of this election.

Trump started his campaign calling Mexicans rapists, was openly racist throughout, bragged about sexual assault, mocked the disabled etc etc. His entire career is littered with refusing black tenants, abusing women and exploiting people. His entire campaign was openly racist. No dogwhistles, just bigotry. At some point you can't coddle this behaviour. You have to stand up to it.

These people - Trump supporters/Leave supporters (to a far smaller extent) - hate being called out for the shit they do. They aren't even being arrested or punished, just criticised. They don't take responsibility for their actions, they cry political correctness or talk about an offence culture. It is all bullshit. They can no longer say the horrible stuff they used to without being criticised. Or that they can in their own communities. They are unwilling to look at themselves to see why people may react poorly to this. They lack the empathy to understand the position of those who have taken offence.

Not all Trump supporters are like this, but at the end of the day his entire campaign (and most of his professional life) was defined by racism. He is a bad man from top to bottom. If you get into bed with that, then you have to own it. He was openly a white nationalist.

Now clearly, Hillary's campaign failed in their messaging. They focused too much on emphasising Trump's negatives, which is obvious but not persuasive. They should have talked more about her own, largely excellent policies and how they would have helped the people who felt alienated. However, whenever she talked policy nobody listened. That's not on her. The media were not interested. But focusing on love trumps hate (that and im with her were atrocious slogans) was a huge mistake.

Though they should have not focused on Trump so much, that they called it out as racist and sexist and so forth was completely right. That's what it was and they called it out appropriately. Just because these people want to be coddled, doesn't mean they should be. How can a party attempt to represent minority groups and not try to protect them?

It is the responsibility of society - especially the political establishment - to protect minorities of all types. Clinton's campaign tried to do this. They made mistakes, but they should be proud for standing up against this when many supposedly decent right wing people acquiesced. To argue they contributed to any division for doing so is disingenuous.

 

[jakonovski]

I do find it endlessly interesting that "straight shooting" is prized only to a point.

If you want to be popular, you only straight shoot at the other guys. I think Clinton was 100% right about needing to have private and public opinions, but failed miserably when she decided to say it out loud.

 

[chillybright]

I don't recall Trump ever saying he was going to "tax the fuck" out of companies that offshore jobs. He said he was going to bring them back to the US, but never how. And he said he was going to punish China for taking our jobs, which, again, I think was a statement steeped with tons of racist connotations.

He claimed he would cut taxes for domestic operating firms and increase those offshore.

As for China, many manufacturing jobs have shifted out from China into other Southeast Asia countries already. Punishing China won't bring those jobs back, only pushing them to countries with lower labor costs.

 

[Audioboxer]

It is the responsibility of society - especially the political establishment - to protect minorities of all types. Clinton's campaign tried to do this. They made mistakes, but they should be proud for standing up against this when many supposedly decent right wing people acquiesced. To argue they contributed to any division for doing so is disingenuous.

The Clinton campaign didn't need to, take NeoGAF for anecdotal evidence the campaigns own voters created that divide. The Sanders and Hillary opinion mess followed by the almost witch hunt like beat down of anyone who was actually on your side but wanted to say something about Hillary caused divisions. You have people on GAF who voted Hillary at the end of the day saying they stopped posting politically on GAF as they couldn't take it anymore. How is that good for the left to be that vicious it manages to turn its own people to silence?

Too many people had their finger on the trigger to headshot everyone discussing Hillary as if they were a deplorable, Trump supporter, or if they believed it was someone actually on the left then they were a sexist women hater trying to hold America back from it's first woman president. Stop talking about Bernie! I get that Trump caused so much unrest, stress and emotional turmoil, but sadly this is what happens when the left can't handle that as its opposition, and it turns and eats itself. People need to do better at engaging with their own base camp.

Of course this is just my opinion, but agree or not, the left lost the battle and all potential reasons as to why need to be aired.

 

[Armadilo]

Thanks mods for the title change - the video seems to be going viral

 

[droggg]

Because of one bad election cycle? When this happened over the past eight years, it was ok then because we got the win?
I wouldn't think to question this if it were about a shift in policy, and not just about how political infighting has been... forever.

My perception of the party has not shifted solely because of this election cycle, but I will say that this election certainly didn't help.

 

[Infinite]

It's all the minorities fault. Them demanding respect and equal rights lead to white America vote for an openly bigoted candidate.

 

[MHWilliams]

Not all Clinton supporters, and yes some Sanders too. As a mod on GAF though you had a birdseye view to what some are feeding back as a rather rough ride for liberals with a different opinion on GAF (Notably on Sanders vs Hillary, or even just being critical of Hillary). The left was incredibly hostile to it's own people on GAF, or at least that's how many feel.

There's having a difference of opinions as this comic states, and engaging, and then there was hyperbole calling Sanders supporters sexist as they wouldn't just get on board with Hillary... It was a right mess.

Again you can disagree with the prevalence of the above, even to the point of feeling it didn't happen at all, but we are in the situation we are now with a terrible Democrat turnout and Hillary losing, and how many of us want a repeat of that again in 2020? Time to hash out what went wrong within the left.

From here no one is free and right and all good.

There are Clinton supporters who have done wrong. Likewise, Sanders and Trump supporters. None of us are angels, shining and perfect. Many have tracked in incentive, emotion, and blame. No one is particularly without sin. Some of that is allowed because of the heightened nature of an election campaign, some because its simply not seen. (We don't see every thread and every post.)

As a separate example, we have banned people feeling real pain in threads about police brutality because they go too far. Too far is always the point.

What we cannot control is being outnumbered. As I said to someone else in PM earlier today, conversation is asymmetric. If you post an opinion that is against the current norm, you will probably have a poor time of it.

Case in point is right now: many who are lashing out right now against others on the left. They vent. They seek vindication. That's fine. That's all well and good. They are not banned and the rhetoric isn't much different. So it abides. The mods haven't changed. The only things that is removed is that which we feel goes too far.

 

[Audioboxer]

From here no one is free and right and all good.

There are Clinton supporters who have done wrong. Likewise, Sanders and Trump supporters. None of us are angels, shining and perfect. Many have tracked in incentive, emotion, and blame. Some of that is allowed because of the heightened nature of an election campaign, some because its simply not seen. (We don't see every thread and every post.)

As a separate example, we have banned people feeling real pain in threads about police brutality because they go too far. Too far is always the point.

What we cannot control is being outnumbered. As I said to someone else in PM earlier today, conversation is asymmetric. If you post an opinion that is against the current norm, you will probably have a poor time of it.

Case in point is right now: many who are lashing out right now against others on the left. They vent. They seek vindication. That's fine. That's all well and good. They are not banned and the rhetoric isn't much different. So it abides. The mods haven't changed. The only things that is removed is that which we feel goes too far.

Just so it's clear I didn't mean it from a POV where I was discussing how NeoGAF moderated it all. I meant you would probably have had PMs, requests and staff chats about how PoliGAF was going. A birds-eye point of view for that. Of course having to wade in and moderate as well gives you front seat to seeing just how crazy it could get.

My plea is more to those who didn't go too far as you put it, but still managed to make home camp for liberals one divided or awkward place for discussion. It is an issue when those on your side say they walked away as they just couldn't take being part of the discussion anymore. As passionate as people need to be allowed to get, as soon as it turns to vitriol with your own people, you're in trouble. Or I should say when it becomes widespread and often, as heated arguments are always going to be a thing.

 

[quickwhips]

I've been saying this for a while.

 

[MHWilliams]

Just so it's clear I didn't mean it from a POV where I was discussing how NeoGAF moderated it all. I meant you would probably have had PMs, requests and staff chats about how PoliGAF was going.

My plea is more to those who didn't go too far as you put it, but still managed to make home camp for liberals one divided or awkward place for discussion. As passionate as people need to be allowed to get, as soon as it turns to vitriol with your own people, you're in trouble. Or I should say when it becomes widespread and often, as heated arguments are always going to be a thing.

You're good. I would've said something if that had been the case.

Your plea is to your fellow posters and there's nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

 

[LUFTRAUSER]

It's all the minorities fault. Them demanding respect and equal rights lead to white America vote for an openly bigoted candidate.

If you continue to just spew rhetoric like this despite everything that has happened, the Democrats will continue to lose elections.
But hey it's a great way for white Democrats to continue to avoid blame. Just "ironically" say it's the minorities fault; it's not like you'll be the one facing the consequences.

The Democrats just got fucking destroyed this election and some of us are still finding ways to act superior.

 

[KingV]

I think there is a deep and widening disconnect culturally.

The left seems to see class as solely an economic matter, but I think there is a very important part of it that is cultural.

I think there is a large group of people who make decent money, but feel mocked and looked down on by the leftist elites because they work with their hands.

Cultural speaking, your average blue collar ironworker or machinist is certain to have more in common with the republicans than the ivory tower liberals. Now race is a part of this, but it's more than just that, because in my experience working alongside union electricians and millwrights is that it's not just the white guys who feel this way.

Im pretty damn liberal and support all sorts of intervention to help equality, but some of the shit on GAF and dailykos, particularly are just crazy talk to me.

Earlier in the thread someone wastalking about "young transgender children". Last week, my four year old ate bird poop, Pulled down her pants and took a dump on a trampoline, and told me Donald Trump was a dentist. If she tried to tell me she was a boy I would treat that with all the gravitas I would treat the musings of anyone that eats bird poop. Or making up your own pronouns or whatever.

It just sounds ridiculous to most people. And a lot of people on here look down at people that don't bend a knee to these fringe concerns. Like, a lot of my family makes a living in construction. With a lot of discussion you might get them to acknowledge it's polite to call a trans person by the gender they're dressed as, but they're going to laugh at you like you're from Mars if you start talking about asking them their preferred pronoun.

I'm not saying these concerns are not important to the people that care about them... But they're not popular universally and aren't going to win you elections.

 

[Audioboxer]

You're good. I would've said something if that had been the case.

Your plea is to your fellow posters and there's nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

Pretty much, and it's an imperfect plea, but it's an attempt for better or worse to try and stimulate the thought that for the next election as much unity as possible will be needed.

Of course ultimately a damn good candidate needs to be at the forefront. Right now personally I wish Michelle Obama did want to consider it.

I'm not even American! But I cannot stick the fact Trump won. Even my own countries leader is getting attention for having words to say about Trump winning.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Clinton ran the most progressive campaign of all time. The messaging was awful and muddied, but what more could you ask for as a lefty?

She won millions more votes amongst Democrats than Sanders. She was favoured by the DNC because Sanders was an opportunist who joined the party at the last time. Maybe he would win, but if he couldn't motivate democrats to vote for him then why would they later? It isn't as easy an argument as some make it to be (there are some valid points on his side, I'll agree).

People do go too far with racist/sexist accusations before evidence but Trump ran a campaign that was openly bigoted. To deny that is fantasy. What does this pie man expect people to say to that? Why should people be allowed to talk racist or sexist shit without criticism(note: criticism does not mean reduction of rights)? These people want a safe space for their racism and their backwards views. They should not be enabled. They have been allowed to say shit uncriticised for so long and in their own communities that when someone takes umbrage against it they feel violated. They feel victimised. That is their fault. Nobody is going to jail for saying racist things. The lefties haven't rounded them up. They just said that it is bad, because it is racist.

How was Clinton supposed to talk about policy? All the media wanted to talk about was emails or a Trump controversy. Look at what she did in the debates - she talked about policy. Nobody cared. The Clinton campaign did focus too much on advertising that he was the nightmare manifest, I'll agree, but I doubt the opposite would have made a difference.

This guy sucks.

The people responsible are the idiots who voted for a shitlord. This is their responsibility. Women who voted against equal pay and abortion rights. The poor who voted for an uber-capitalist who stiffs the little man at every chance he can. The rich who voted for someone who will likely tank the economy. The evangelicals who voted for someone with no regard for religiosity.

Fantastic post. Bravo.

Couldn't agree more with the bolded. It's almost as if everyone wants to blame everyone EXCEPT the voters.

And on a note more related to the thread: why is the onus always on the left to be nice? Donald Trump just became the fuckig president. You think his kindness got him there? Is the GOP known for their soft touch?

But of course! Donald Trump was never smug. He reached across the aisle to protect the little guys, and he never, ever engaged in condescension towards anyone, whereas Hillary sneered at every white blue-collar worker her eyes lingered on.

Spoiler

Fucking LOL

Fuck this guy. He's another one of those finger wagging progressive with caveats types blaming the SJW movement. The SJW movement has not been able to get farther than university campuses in North America. A 21 year old trans activist went on Twitter one time and said "Kill All Cis Males" and you guys responded by voting an openly racist 1% into the White House along with his openly homophobic running mate and think that the SJW movement is the one ruining society. Yeah, go fuck yourselves.

All Trump supporters. White ones (60% of white people voted Trump) and the various minorities groups that voted for him (29% Hispanic support, 8% black support, 29% Asian-American support) at best, are responsible for passively supporting his bigotry. I don't wanna hear how Clinton was so corrupt, or how she had no charisma or how disenfranchised working class whites were or that Trump's tax plan was awesome. There was no hidden agenda behind his message, he spelled it out plainly and clearly in his inflammatory remarks and if you voted for him - even if not for those reasons, you still thought it was acceptable enough to gloss over it and vote in someone who was openly racist and had an openly homophobic running mate. That's bigotry. Plain and simple. You don't get to absolve yourself of the responsibility because you never personally told a Muslim to go back to his country. And yes, #AllTrumpSupporters, without exception.

I swear, it's like the white moderate out there seems to think that voting for Obama, fucking an Asian woman, marching in a Pride Parade and eating at Taco Bell every now and then makes them open minded and deserving of our praise.

Yuuuup

"But Hillary didn't even visit Wisconsin!" Okay, she should have, because it's how politics work. But seriously why should she even have to? Are Wisconsin voters so pathetic that they can't even stay informed by, say, watching even ONE of the debates and seeing how wretched Trump was? They just need someone to come shake hands and smile at them and give them warm fuzzy feelings?

Babies, indeed.

It is depressing that Obama wasn't elected on his merits, on his intellect, or his platform, but 100% because of his charisma and his empty "hope & change" fluffy promises. Yes, charisma matters often in politics, but the fact that it is the ONLY thing that matters in choosing the most powerful leader in the free world is asinine. Americans who feel embarrassed are right to be so.

If you need to be ''enthused' into voting for charisma over policy than you are a baby

enjoy your charismatic authoritarian with shitty policies.

I know we disagree a lot in PoliGAF, but I'm with you 100% here. I guess that makes me a smug liberal or whatever. *shrugs*

Yes? You are responsible for the actions of the government you vote for.

I would say you are at least if the government you voted for promised the things they actually did. I doubt many people voted for Obama expecting him to send that many drones, but if he had ran on a platform about bombing the Middle East, then yeah, the voters would sure a shit be responsible for those bombings.

 

[War Peaceman]

The Clinton campaign didn't need to, take NeoGAF for anecdotal evidence the campaigns own voters created that divide. The Sanders and Hillary opinion mess followed by the almost witch hunt like beat down of anyone who was actually on your side but wanted to say something about Hillary caused divisions. You have people on GAF who voted Hillary at the end of the day saying they stopped posting politically on GAF as they couldn't take it anymore. How is that good for the left to be that vicious it manages to turn its own people to silence?

Too many people had their finger on the trigger to headshot everyone discussing Hillary as if they were a deplorable, Trump supporter, or if they believed it was someone actually on the left then they were a sexist women hater trying to hold America back from it's first woman president. Stop talking about Bernie! I get that Trump caused so much unrest, stress and emotional turmoil, but sadly this is what happens when the left can't handle that as its opposition, and it turns and eats itself. People need to do better at engaging with their own base camp.

Of course this is just my opinion, but agree or not, the left lost the battle and all potential reasons as to why need to be aired.

Well, firstly neogaf is not representative of much at all. Secondly I did say some people are too quick to make such accusations (I was thinking tumblr style 'activism'). However there are also many people who are sensitive to having their views challenged - Bernie's campaign DID do racially insensitive things and were called out for it(Hillary's vs. Obama was worse for this), for example - and can't take this. Also, it is easier to criticise than make a point so they often see pile ons, which is unfortunate but also hard to avoid. (That is one thing that really should change. If someone else has criticised someone, there is no need to echo it; give them a chance to respond.)

What I'm saying is, if you want to talk about serious issues you have to be willing to take criticism. People can be more forgiving and accepting, but let's face it, it is very magnanimous for a minority to give the benefit of the doubt to people with retrograde views about their race/orientation, and why should they have to be?

 

[Harmen]

He doesn't even really say Trump winning is really the fault of leftist calling out the racism/sexism of rightwing voters (he mentions many reasons), he says it is the reason we didn't saw it coming , and I have to agree on that one.

 

[Odrion]

I guess I agree with "shame bigots and they'll just hide their bigotry" but that just results in some polling inaccuracy I guess. Which is fine and can be accounted for and a better result than legitimizing said bigotry.

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

Yes, these voters care about their livelihood more than social justice and equality. Welcome to the human race.

More than mocking the disabled, making fun of women's looks, being sexist, racist, xenophobic, ripping off people, doing shady business deals, avoiding taxes, and condoning war crimes. There are millions who voted who understood the conditions for other people matter more than their livelihoods, so let's not pretend like it can't be done.

I understand the sentiment about listening to other people's problems, but some of you keep repeating this as if the people who voted for Trump were just born yesterday and their issues just started yesterday. We know their problems and we've listened to them. We know how to fix many of them but haven't been able to because congress is full of lawmakers elected by those very people who are now angry that nothing got done, but blame who? Of course. The black guy in the White House.

Many of those people have created their own reality, one in which Obama destroyed the economy and trashed our image abroad. In their reality, everything today is worse than when he took office. Despite ALL the evidence that proves the opposite is true.

Gingrich a few months ago said people were concerned because crime is up. When he was given a statistic from the FBI that showed this to be false, he said, "Well, I'll go with people's feelings and you go with the statisticians."

If people choose to deny facts, listening to them is simply disingenuous. We cannot listen to the SAME shit year after year, decade after decade, because people choose to "feel" things instead of accepting what they actually are, and with that information being freely available to them in an instant.

At some point we have to say, "We listened and here are the facts. If you ignore them, I can't help you" and fucking go get some shit done. Those people will see the benefits and hopefully come around.

 

[royalan]

Seriously. Everybody is to blame except the fuckers that voted for him.

Ding ding ding.

 

[off duty ninja]

One of the most dumbfounding things this past cycle was that, not only did the Clinton crowd demonize the right, they vilified the left as well, their allies! If you weren't on their specific hue of the political spectrum, then you were part of the problem. If you were too progressive, you were naive and delusional and your ideas would never have a chance of being enacted so you shouldn't even try. If you liked Bernie, well look right here, we've got this nice Bernie Bro narrative to run with to label people as sexists and racists, even Bernie himself! The implications that people wouldn't have prodded issues in Hillary's policy if she were a man. The implications that they weren't actually taking anything seriously and that they weren't gonna show up at the polls. Anyone not 100% on board with the queen was a problem.

Fantastic post! You just described the sentiment of what I can only imagine is a pretty large percentage of Gaffers. I don't have the emotional energy at 39 that I did when I was 18-20.

I used to badmouth Republicans all the time (still do but grew up in a strictly republican household in the middle of a blue state, Portland, OR) for just voting right down the line R without any thought or consideration. This was my father. To this day he just votes party lines. This train of thought to me always felt so ignorant to me.

Due to this I always identified as liberal. I took pride on thinking for myself, empathizing with others and wanting EVERYBODY to have equal rights.

Sadly, 20 years later I am seeing this exact same attitude out of the liberals that I hated about republicans in my youth. The rabid nature of HillGAF here took me expecially by surprise because I have very good reasons for disliking Hillary (See MM's recent stuff) such as her voting against gay marriage until it was socially acceptable and voting for the Iraq War when it shouldn't have been.

I have come to the conclusion that we are living in the midst of an empire collapsing and there is nothing we can do to stop it now. I would love to be wrong but as long as the attitude is to fight negativity with negativity then we will all lose.

 

[War Peaceman]

I guess I agree with "shame bigots and they'll just hide their bigotry" but that just results in some polling inaccuracy I guess. Which is fine and can be accounted for and a better result than legitimizing said bigotry.

What is and isn't accepted by society is an established dynamic. There are many things we collectively do not say for the sake of cohesion. Many Trump supporters were likely racist before but never expressed it because it was not the done thing. Trump and the increasing partisanship via the internet has empowered them that actually their darkest feelings are valid. Voting for Trump was a vote for these dark desires. Whether or not you share them, you approve of them being said.

Bigots should be shamed. That is how it works. They should be legally allowed to express their opinions if they so desire, but that doesn't mean it should be accepted.