Spider_Jerusalem
Member
ATJaguarX said:
He simply is a good rumors listener, and he said nothing we didn't already hear or that could not be elaborated from previous rumors. I could have said you exactly the same things, looking enough convincing.
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Juicy Xbox360 rumors
- Thread starter Wario64
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He simply is a good rumors listener, and he said nothing we didn't already hear or that could not be elaborated from previous rumors. I could have said you exactly the same things, looking enough convincing.
Wario64 said:
This is going to be a major obstacle that I am not so sure MS will be able to overcome. Backwards compatibility was a major selling point for the PS2. If PS3 launches with PSone AND PS2 support (early reports indicate that it will), how can MS possibly compete with that?? That is such a huge built in library of titles from the get go, plus why would 70 million Playstation 2 owners even entertain the idea of switching to another console that's not even backwards compatible with it's own titles from one generation ago?
If MS is going to win the coming generation, they will have to do so by luring current Playstation owners away from what they already know and love (yes, believe it or not the majority of playstation owners ARE happy playstation owners) and at the same time keep virtually 100% of their current userbase. Make no mistake, lack of backwards compatibility is going hurt Xbox2.
It's funny how everyone laughed at Nintendo at GDC for making a big deal about how their next system will be backwards compatible with Gamecube. Everyone said "well by today's standards this should just be a forgone conclusion." Well I say to you, how does this make MS look since they're not even keeping up with what so many of you consider to be a "no-brainer" feature?
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
If Xbox 360 doesn't have BC, this will be an issue that will not die because the other 2/3rds of the console industry (Sony and Nintendo) have announced BC and I would be *shocked* if we have to "suffer" with compromised (in comparison to Xbox 360) gaming hardware from Sony and Nintendo...
I will even go out on a limb as predict PS3 and Revolution will probably be able to do everything an Xbox 360 can do graphically, *AND MORE*.....BC and all....I also doubt they will be radically more expensive than an Xbox 360 either....
Of the three next-gen consoles, MS is the odd man out with this issue......
I will even go out on a limb as predict PS3 and Revolution will probably be able to do everything an Xbox 360 can do graphically, *AND MORE*.....BC and all....I also doubt they will be radically more expensive than an Xbox 360 either....
Of the three next-gen consoles, MS is the odd man out with this issue......
It really is in MS best interest to have BC. To basically kill the Xbox system early in its lifecycle and then not offer BC in its next iteration really shows a flawed mentality among the MS Xbox development team and I'll tell you why.
1). Parents look for BC in the system when they look to buy the next gen for their kids. They wanna know that "little johnny" can play all the games that they spend hard earned cash for on the new version of hardware. PS2 opened this attitude up and now its an expected feature of next gen systems. I've worked in the gaming retail sector and I know first hand how many people inquire about BC in system purchases. Excluding it is gonna turn parents off right away. Especially adopters of the past 2 years or so.
2). Its gives the system and instantly huge library of playable games (obviously) and developers who wish to continue to support Xbox 1 still have the option to do so. I know I personally still purchased PSone titles long after I purchased a PS2 and so did many other millions of Playstation gamers.
3). It lends a "legacy" feeling towards the system. It becomes a continued history and builds upon the stability or what came before to strengthen consumer attitude towards the system. This is even more so for Xbox than PS2 because of Live. There are Live titles OTHER than Halo 2 that people will still be playing for a long time to come. I dare say far longer than past this November.
4). I don't believe this is an issue of cost for MS. It could be included as a feature with purchase of the HD add on. The cost incured of that would easily cover any fees if there were any to InVidia and at the very least give the consumer the option of purchasing BC for the unit if they so desired to.
So all in all what it really boils down to is tech, can they get all title to run properly. I think thats all it really is because they've been dancing around the topic for a while now and I think its still up in the air. But should they fail to include it just get ready for consumer backlash because it will be there whether you agree with it or not.
1). Parents look for BC in the system when they look to buy the next gen for their kids. They wanna know that "little johnny" can play all the games that they spend hard earned cash for on the new version of hardware. PS2 opened this attitude up and now its an expected feature of next gen systems. I've worked in the gaming retail sector and I know first hand how many people inquire about BC in system purchases. Excluding it is gonna turn parents off right away. Especially adopters of the past 2 years or so.
2). Its gives the system and instantly huge library of playable games (obviously) and developers who wish to continue to support Xbox 1 still have the option to do so. I know I personally still purchased PSone titles long after I purchased a PS2 and so did many other millions of Playstation gamers.
3). It lends a "legacy" feeling towards the system. It becomes a continued history and builds upon the stability or what came before to strengthen consumer attitude towards the system. This is even more so for Xbox than PS2 because of Live. There are Live titles OTHER than Halo 2 that people will still be playing for a long time to come. I dare say far longer than past this November.
4). I don't believe this is an issue of cost for MS. It could be included as a feature with purchase of the HD add on. The cost incured of that would easily cover any fees if there were any to InVidia and at the very least give the consumer the option of purchasing BC for the unit if they so desired to.
So all in all what it really boils down to is tech, can they get all title to run properly. I think thats all it really is because they've been dancing around the topic for a while now and I think its still up in the air. But should they fail to include it just get ready for consumer backlash because it will be there whether you agree with it or not.
lollerskates
Banned
sirris said:
what planet are you from? kids tell their parents exactly what they want.
Mom and Pop america don't just go out and drop that kind of money on something without finding out exactly which one they are supposed to get beforehand.
I don't doubt that those situations you describe happen, but I think the impact of them on overall sales would be negligible.
lollerskates said:
Parents still want to know that the old stuff they just threw money into no so long ago (see less than 3 years) isn't going to waste. They know as soon as they buy the new system that son/daughter isn't going to use what they had. If you don't think parents are conscieous of this then your crazy and it would most certainly impact a large number of sales especially the first year or two which is MS most critical time slot for gaining ground.
MassiveAttack
Banned
sirris said:
True, especially when parents discover XBOX 360 titles selling for $60 and $70. :lol
lollerskates
Banned
sirris said:
So if Johnny specifically says he wants an XBOX 2, the parents are going to buy him a PS3 or Revolution instead? Because of backwards compatibility? screw what the kid wants, right?
haha im glad you arent my dad
I think if Microsoft does it right, marketing wise they could bring this thing out in a cool adult way. Market it with great games and a ton of features at about $500.00. Then just before the PS3 and revolution comes out, drop the price and release Halo 3.
Included in these features for $500 is enough power to take on the pS3 (which I'm sure it will have knowing sony's record of overstating everything!).
Included in these features for $500 is enough power to take on the pS3 (which I'm sure it will have knowing sony's record of overstating everything!).
If Microsoft does it right and they get kids thinking its cool because its for adults and it has some sweet games before and at PS3's release than the PS3 is gonna have a hard time. Microsoft knows what it is doing. Remember this is the company that beat the "International Business Machine"!
inpHilltr8r
Member
Do they still make those? :lolWario64 said:
MassiveAttack
Banned
Jr. said:
Er, no. PS3 won't have a hard time no matter what MS does. The only thing that matters is how close MS can keep the race next gen. Closer than this gen, certainly, but still not as close as MS would like.
DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
I'm going to buy a 911... and drive it at 20 mph! brum brum!
Also - how MS can make things hard for Sony EVEN if sony slaughter them = drop the price of the royalties significantly. Theoretically , Sony would follow suit. This fucks their PS strategy up something awful - large out lay and initial losses recouped over a 7-10 year period would suddenly lengthen out if the royalty rate gets slashed. It's a business weakness, and i'm _sure_ MS will have spotted it.
Also - how MS can make things hard for Sony EVEN if sony slaughter them = drop the price of the royalties significantly. Theoretically , Sony would follow suit. This fucks their PS strategy up something awful - large out lay and initial losses recouped over a 7-10 year period would suddenly lengthen out if the royalty rate gets slashed. It's a business weakness, and i'm _sure_ MS will have spotted it.
lollerskates said:So if Johnny specifically says he wants an XBOX 2, the parents are going to buy him a PS3 or Revolution instead? Because of backwards compatibility? screw what the kid wants, right?
haha im glad you arent my dad
Well most parents aren't gonna drop $300- $500 on a new system without investigating stuff like BC. I doubt MS has included the "little johnny throws a tantrum and get his parents to do anything including blow $500" concept into the BC equasion. You must be one spoiled kid to think that happens.
MassiveAttack
Banned
DCharlie said:
In Tokyo maybe. ;-)
lollerskates
Banned
sirris said:
it has nothing to do with throwing a tantrum.
it has to do with which console the kid specifically asked for.
Parents usually buy their kids the things they ask for when its time to buy gifts.
Why would they get him the console that he didn't say he wanted?
because of.. backwards compatibility?
i don't buy that. who wants to disappoint their kid at xmas etc?
DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
I see the point of convenience but i find it highly unlikely that BC is a make or break decission - more likely, it'll come down to which system has the kickiest assiness games.
I guess you could trade in your old PS2 when the PS3 comes out, but what sort of cash would you get?! I mean, the deals in games stores in the UK seemed to be "trade in 4 games + 1 quid for ANY new game" with some places saying the games have to have been released in the last 12 months ... hardly the greatest deals in the world - i dread to think what the deals are you can get on a console! "Trade in your Ps2 , your skin and 3 vital organs + 50 gbp for a PS3 or Xbox 2!"
I guess you could trade in your old PS2 when the PS3 comes out, but what sort of cash would you get?! I mean, the deals in games stores in the UK seemed to be "trade in 4 games + 1 quid for ANY new game" with some places saying the games have to have been released in the last 12 months ... hardly the greatest deals in the world - i dread to think what the deals are you can get on a console! "Trade in your Ps2 , your skin and 3 vital organs + 50 gbp for a PS3 or Xbox 2!"
DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
"Thats like saying because you bought a 2006 Corvette you never wanna get behind the wheel of a Stingray."
it's more like saying :
i've had a PS2 since launch, and i've been playing all the games now.
When the PS3 comes out, i'll buy it because i want to play the new games as the most important factor. I don't forsee me sitting at the PS3 playing Tekken 4, i'm sure there will be a whole slew of games to keep me occupied.
So for me -personally- putting BC as the most important factor seems stupid.
If BC was so important, i'd have thought people would have been much more pro DS than they are (yes, the PSP has nothing to be bc with, but the arguement that you get 1000+ games right away holds true for the DS)
it's more like saying :
i've had a PS2 since launch, and i've been playing all the games now.
When the PS3 comes out, i'll buy it because i want to play the new games as the most important factor. I don't forsee me sitting at the PS3 playing Tekken 4, i'm sure there will be a whole slew of games to keep me occupied.
So for me -personally- putting BC as the most important factor seems stupid.
If BC was so important, i'd have thought people would have been much more pro DS than they are (yes, the PSP has nothing to be bc with, but the arguement that you get 1000+ games right away holds true for the DS)
MassiveAttack
Banned
DCharlie said:
You don't think Sony provides the same reduced royalty incentives to "special" partners? It's never been publicized but it's been a dirty little secret in the biz for a long time.
lollerskates said:
When it comes to spending $500, I know alot of parents who would tell their kids to think of another present. And the bottom line is YES parents will certainly be quicker to purchase a system if it has BC of a system they already own. Period. End of story. Yes I'm sure theres a few wacky parents with lots of money to blow who could give a rats bottomif is BC or not but I'm afraid that the majority of the comsumers out there do not work that way.
DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
i'm sure certain partners do, but that isn't for everyone is it? They also pay money hats to companies too, but most people seem to think this is an MS invention!
sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. $500 is $500, whether it plays the old games or not.
Either a parent thinks $500 is too expensive or it's not. The gains from BC are what exactly? having two generations of releases to support not just one? Doesn't that make the long term costs MORE for parents? Also , another difference is that if it's BC they have a harder time saying to little Jonny "You can have a PS3, but only if you sell your old machine and all the games to fund it"
inpHilltr8r
Member
The actual number is quite well known now. That you and your source don't have it speaks volumes.ATJaguarX said:
MassiveAttack
Banned
DCharlie said:i'm sure certain partners do, but that isn't for everyone is it? They also pay money hats to companies too, but most people seem to think this is an MS invention!
Definitely not everyone. But this rumor regarding reduced royalties for XBOX2, even if true, is not going to pertain to everyone either or for a unlimited period of time.
lollerskates
Banned
sirris said:
I remain unconvinced.
Backwards compatibility is one of those thing that sounds good on paper, and its a nice marketing tool, but I think it only appeals to the ultra of the hardcore.
I bought my PS2 on launch day and I was all excited about backwards compatibility so I sold my PSOne. Turns out that the only PSOne game I even played on the PS2 was Final Fantasy IX because it ended up being released soon after the PS2 launched. After I got a little taste of PS2 graphics compared to PSOne, I just couldn't go back.
I bought my PS2 on launch day and I was all excited about backwards compatibility so I sold my PSOne. Turns out that the only PSOne game I even played on the PS2 was Final Fantasy IX because it ended up being released soon after the PS2 launched. After I got a little taste of PS2 graphics compared to PSOne, I just couldn't go back.
psycho_snake
I went to WAGs boutique and all I got was a sniff
The lack of backwards compatability is going to hurt Xbox 360. BC is one of the reasons why PS2 was such a success.
Im so hyped up for E3, I cant weait to see what all three companies to show what they have for the xent generation.
Im so hyped up for E3, I cant weait to see what all three companies to show what they have for the xent generation.
Spider_Jerusalem
Member
Truly. I've got many friends that have an Xbox and aren't at all hardcore, and whan we talk about Xenon they really don't bother about BC. This is an overrated subject here, and it won't do much difference, on any platform.bill0527 said:
Edit:
Maybe this is because PS2 at launch didn't have any good games other than the ones from the previous gen :lol For one year it's simply been a dvd-reading capable PSOne ;-)
Well for you personally - BC is nullified as any kind of factor just by the fact that you have 4-5 versions of every console you own.DCharlie said:
Of course if owning 8PS2s, 6XBoxes and 4GCs was an example of average consumer, console makers might as well start pricing next generation hw at 3x the usual price.
Spider_Jerusalem said:
Sorry, no you couldn't. We left out ALOT of information that confirms his identity. (...and ALOT that he asked us not to talk about.) This was a 90 MINUTE CONVERSATION and we maybe told you 15 minutes worth of it. We haven't even brought up the PS3 and Revolution info. There was a rumor of a add-on HDD w/a preloaded high def Halo 2? ...or the multiple video outputs? ...or the XBL gamercards? ...or downloading games early at a reduced price? If so, great, I really don't care...or follow videogame rumors.
inpHilltr8r said:
Jaguar said the XBox 360 was basically a G5 running Longhorn that MAY have dual processors because honestly, we don't remember EXACTLY what he said. I thought I remembered him saying it would have 2 and they're trying for a third. ALOT of this converation went WAY over my head because it took place late at night and there was a slight language barrier. We where on information overload for the next day or two trying to sort it all out and remember what exactly we heard. It took me a couple days to digest everything I heard and try to ramble some of it out to a PM to Wario.
So everyone, quit nitpicking EVERY LITTLE THING WE DIDN'T SAY and take it for what it's worth. RUMORS! Next time we'll post it somewhere else (or not all) because putting out fires on this forum is a full time job that I have no desire, or care to do.
Emh..cough..spill the beans about PS3! please
Or your memory is fallacious or Jaguar is wrong, cause Xbox 360 is not G5 based, neither single or dual processors.
XBox 360's processor is composed of 3 cores, each core is an 'extended' edition of the general purpose core IBM developed for CELL also called PPE.
PPE is a deep pipelined 2-way multithreaded in order CPU, G5 has much shorter pipelines, it's single threaded and it has out of order execution.
PPE and G5 (mostly) share one thing, the POWER instruction set, that's all.
Spider_Jerusalem
Member
Saurus said:
Well, then you chose to reveal the only infos that were already rumored ;-) Why don't you tell more about it? I'm really willing to know something new about Xenon
yes, there was. it was rumored very early when someone hinted at the external hd thingy. someone said that it would be sold with Halo 2.5 preinstalled to push sales.
yep, not about four different outputs but I already heard that it will have one extra monitor output.
well, this isn't indeed a rumor, as it was announced officially at GDC
not directly. but there was a rumor about downloadable game demos, so if you're able to download a demo you obviously can download a full game, too. it's only a marketing choice.
and obviously also the G5 thing was already rumored, since the time the first development kits were sent to the developers. They're dual G5s running with a customized windows os. I don't remember if it was an XP or Longhorn version. But obviously this doesn't mean that the final Xenon will have G5 procesors inside.
yeah, maybe you don't follow them so much. I run an xbox fansite, so I listen and memorize every little rumor :lol
I'm only telling you that if this is all that your guy said you, well then he simply told already rumored things, and I could've told you exactly the same things. But I don't know the other things that he told you, so if you trust him, it's ok
DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
"Well for you personally - BC is nullified as any kind of factor just by the fact that you have 4-5 versions of every console you own. "
well, yes, but...
who _doesn't_ have a PS2 on this board? i'd imagine not many, so theoretically people are playing all those great games now .. great, so you'll be able to play them on the PS3 - but , errm, given that the trade in value of your PS2 is going to be next to nowt, and that you'll be wanting to keep the games to play on the PS3 so you aren't going to sell those - then it's just a convenience thing (?). So.... I don't see why it's a deal breaker or the no. 1 priority to some people. Great it plays the games you've already played and saves you some space... (?)
Either that or i'm missing something.
"well, yes, but...
who _doesn't_ have a PS2 on this board? i'd imagine not many, so theoretically people are playing all those great games now .. great, so you'll be able to play them on the PS3 - but , errm, given that the trade in value of your PS2 is going to be next to nowt, and that you'll be wanting to keep the games to play on the PS3 so you aren't going to sell those - then it's just a convenience thing (?). So.... I don't see why it's a deal breaker or the no. 1 priority to some people. Great it plays the games you've already played and saves you some space... (?)
Either that or i'm missing something.
I don't think it's a deal-breaker so much as I (and imagine many other people) perceive it as extra value. So I think it's more like something that attracts more people if there, as opposed to something that chases them away if missing (though it's all relative - once you have competition you could view it from both sidesDCharlie said:
).And I would never underestimate the convenience factor.
You know, it's a lot like the difference between being able to pop-in a Dos game and play it through DosBox under 2k/XP, or having to reboot with a Dos-disc to play the same game.
Ever since I have the option of the first, even with some incompatibilities, I would never even Consider the latter anymore.
Spider_Jerusalem
Member
I'd say that BC much less relevant the more strong titles the console will have at launch, or in the following months. If there will be many exciting titles to attract people, I think noone will complain about BC absence. But if it will have e weak line-up, obviously BC will become very relevant. We'll see, but I'm betting on a stellar line-up, so imho BC absence will be no issue.Fafalada said:I don't think it's a deal-breaker so much as I (and imagine many other people) perceive it as extra value. So I think it's more like something that attracts more people if there, as opposed to something that chases them away if missing (though it's all relative - once you have competition you could view it from both sides
Doc Savage
Member
If Microsoft puts together a "killer launch line-up" of games and has big franchises from the 3rd parties right off the bat I don't think the BC will be a big issue. I don't think this is going to be a repeat of the Xbox,PS2 or GC launch. It seems XB360 games have been in development for quite some time and there should be a healthy selection from the get-go. It was different when your selection of games was Fantavision, Azurik and Luigi's mansion and the like, there shouldn't be a repeat of that scenario on any future console launch.
pcostabel
Gold Member
Many people dismiss BC on the ground that they did not play PS1 games on PS2 because they looked primitive in comparison. The difference is that PS2 games will still look good compared to the next gen games. I refuse to think that GT4 will look primitive compared to GT5. I'm not saying there won't be a significant difference, just that it won't make GT4 any less impressive.
And with PS2 only halfway into its lifespan, I expect the best looking games are yet to come.
PS3 BC will be a big advantage for many consumers, particularly those 86+ million PS2 owners.
Infact, I wonder if next generation will be successful. If the early examples of next gen games are representative, I beleive many people will just stick with the current gen. I know I am seriously thinking of skipping next gen altogether.
And with PS2 only halfway into its lifespan, I expect the best looking games are yet to come.
PS3 BC will be a big advantage for many consumers, particularly those 86+ million PS2 owners.
Infact, I wonder if next generation will be successful. If the early examples of next gen games are representative, I beleive many people will just stick with the current gen. I know I am seriously thinking of skipping next gen altogether.
Spider_Jerusalem
Member
pcostabel said:
:lol :lol :lol
You really think so? You think PS3 games won't make PS2 games look shitty? Even thinking that PS2 is the less powerful of the current gen consoles, and PS3 will be the more powerful? If you're serious, then prepare for a great shock, coming next-gen ;-)
Well, the PS1 and N64 sure as hell did't make Yoshi's Island look any less awesome.
PS2 at least operates at a decent resolution with decent textures. PS1 games are so pixelated and blocky it's amazing anyone tolerated it.
PS3 wont make PS2 graphics seem interolerable like the PS1, because we're not playing the PS2 just because of some cool gimmick like the PS1 (OMG THREE DEE GRPAHICS!).
PS2 at least operates at a decent resolution with decent textures. PS1 games are so pixelated and blocky it's amazing anyone tolerated it.
PS3 wont make PS2 graphics seem interolerable like the PS1, because we're not playing the PS2 just because of some cool gimmick like the PS1 (OMG THREE DEE GRPAHICS!).
I have slowly realized that when he was talking about dual G5 processors, he was talking about the development boxes. He is intimately familiar with the development boxes.
And yes, it is a modified version of Windows Longhorn, not Windows XP.
After the flaming that myself and Saurus have received by trying to CONFIRM Xbox "rumors", don't expect any PS3 and/or Revolution rumors. We tried to be helpful and it has only turned into a full time job trying to put out fires here.
And Saurus is correct... we divulged 15 minutes of a 90 minute conversation that took place late at night with a slight language barrier, so it has taken sometime for everything to sink in. I felt I could try and put some truth behind some rumors (what I felt as truth).
And if you can't figure out who might know alot about the development process of the Xbox 360 and the games to follow and the previous games on Xbox, then you have other problems. No... it wasn't just a kid off the street... but then again, I didn't ask for physical proof of who he was.
And yes, it is a modified version of Windows Longhorn, not Windows XP.
After the flaming that myself and Saurus have received by trying to CONFIRM Xbox "rumors", don't expect any PS3 and/or Revolution rumors. We tried to be helpful and it has only turned into a full time job trying to put out fires here.
And Saurus is correct... we divulged 15 minutes of a 90 minute conversation that took place late at night with a slight language barrier, so it has taken sometime for everything to sink in. I felt I could try and put some truth behind some rumors (what I felt as truth).
And if you can't figure out who might know alot about the development process of the Xbox 360 and the games to follow and the previous games on Xbox, then you have other problems. No... it wasn't just a kid off the street... but then again, I didn't ask for physical proof of who he was.
Are you gonna cry about it? Why do you post these rumors for the glory and the fame, or just to do a general service? If the former, then tough nuts, no one pats you on the back for this shit anymore. If it's the latter, then stop whining and get over it. You know credibility is ALWAYS questions. Sometimes nicely, sometimes not. I haven't said anything in this thread until now, but I'll say that if you are upset about the way your rumors are received, then you need to stop being such a pussy. Get the hell over it. If you got Revolution or PS3 info, post it, or shut the fuck up. People want to read this stuff, not everyone's gonna flame you. If you let the few, rabid skeptics get to you, then you shouldn't even have mentioned anything in the first place.ATJaguarX said:
If you can't tell, the only thing that pisses me off more than skeptics who harass rumor posters are rumor posters who whine. PEACE.
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