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Justice Department Memo on Drone Striking American citizens who are al-Qaeda leaders

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http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_new...egal-case-for-drone-strikes-on-americans?lite

A confidential Justice Department memo concludes that the U.S. government can order the killing of American citizens if they are believed to be “senior operational leaders” of al-Qaida or “an associated force” -- even if there is no intelligence indicating they are engaged in an active plot to attack the U.S.

The 16-page memo, a copy of which was obtained by NBC News, provides new details about the legal reasoning behind one of the Obama administration’s most secretive and controversial polices: its dramatically increased use of drone strikes against al-Qaida suspects, including those aimed at American citizens, such as the September 2011 strike in Yemen that killed alleged al-Qaida operatives Anwar al-Awlaki and Samir Khan. Both were U.S. citizens who had never been indicted by the U.S. government nor charged with any crimes.

The secrecy surrounding such strikes is fast emerging as a central issue in this week’s hearing of White House counterterrorism adviser John Brennan, a key architect of the drone campaign, to be CIA director
. Brennan was the first administration official to publicly acknowledge drone strikes in a speech last year, calling them “consistent with the inherent right of self-defense.” In a separate talk at the Northwestern University Law School in March, Attorney General Eric Holder specifically endorsed the constitutionality of targeted killings of Americans, saying they could be justified if government officials determine the target poses “an imminent threat of violent attack.”

But the confidential Justice Department “white paper” introduces a more expansive definition of self-defense or imminent attack than described by Brennan or Holder in their public speeches. It refers, for example, to what it calls a “broader concept of imminence” than actual intelligence about any ongoing plot against the U.S. homeland.
“The condition that an operational leader present an ‘imminent’ threat of violent attack against the United States does not require the United States to have clear evidence that a specific attack on U.S. persons and interests will take place in the immediate future,” the memo states.

Instead, it says, an “informed, high-level” official of the U.S. government may determine that the targeted American has been “recently” involved in “activities” posing a threat of a violent attack and “there is no evidence suggesting that he has renounced or abandoned such activities.” The memo does not define “recently” or “activities.”

As in Holder’s speech, the confidential memo lays out a three-part test that would make targeted killings of American lawful: In addition to the suspect being an imminent threat, capture of the target must be “infeasible, and the strike must be conducted according to “law of war principles.” But the memo elaborates on some of these factors in ways that go beyond what the attorney general said publicly. For example, it states that U.S. officials may consider whether an attempted capture of a suspect would pose an “undue risk” to U.S. personnel involved in such an operation. If so, U.S. officials could determine that the capture operation of the targeted American would not be feasible, making it lawful for the U.S. government to order a killing instead, the memo concludes.

The undated memo is entitled “Lawfulness of a Lethal Operation Directed Against a U.S. Citizen who is a Senior Operational Leader of Al Qa’ida or An Associated Force.” It was provided to members of the Senate Intelligence and Judiciary committees in June by administration officials on the condition that it be kept confidential and not discussed publicly.

Although not an official legal memo, the white paper was represented by administration officials as a policy document that closely mirrors the arguments of classified memos on targeted killings by the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, which provides authoritative legal advice to the president and all executive branch agencies. The administration has refused to turn over to Congress or release those memos publicly -- or even publicly confirm their existence. A source with access to the white paper, which is not classified, provided a copy to NBC News.

“This is a chilling document,” said Jameel Jaffer, deputy legal director of the ACLU, which has sued unsuccessfully in court to obtain administration memos about the targeted killing of Americans. “Basically, it argues that the government has the right to carry out the extrajudicial killing of an American citizen. … It recognizes some limits on the authority it sets out, but the limits are elastic and vaguely defined, and it’s easy to see how they could be manipulated.”

In particular, Jaffer said, the memo “redefines the word imminence in a way that deprives the word of its ordinary meaning.”

A Justice Department spokeswoman declined to comment on the white paper. The spokeswoman, Tracy Schmaler, instead pointed to public speeches by what she called a “parade” of administration officials, including Brennan, Holder, former State Department Legal Adviser Harold Koh and former Defense Department General Counsel Jeh Johnson that she said outlined the “legal framework” for such operations.

Pressure for turning over the Justice Department memos on targeted killings of Americans appears to be building on Capitol Hill amid signs that Brennan will be grilled on the subject at his confirmation hearing before the Senate Intelligence Committee on Thursday.

....

“A lawful killing in self-defense is not an assassination,” the white paper reads. “In the Department’s view, a lethal operation conducted against a U.S. citizen whose conduct poses an imminent threat of violent attack against the United States would be a legitimate act of national self-defense that would not violate the assassination ban. Similarly, the use of lethal force, consistent with the laws of war, against an individual who is a legitimate military target would be lawful and would not violate the assassination ban.”

BCTlEcOCcAEIFRf.jpg


More at the link
 

markot

Banned
The problem is, if they are part of a 'terrorist group' then... theyve kind of stated their intentions.

I dont really see why its that bad... I mean, drone strikes themselves are a bigger moral quandry imo.
 

Weenerz

Banned
Great title, the memo clearly states it would be americans working for Al-Qa'ida that were senior officials in that program and were planning imminent attacks, and even then, you need enough proof that you are unable to capture them. Title makes it sound like they can use drone strikes against regular ass people.
 

markot

Banned
Well, I sure am glad that's clarified as to when it's ok for my government to kill me without due process.

If you are not in the USA they are unable to deploy to capture you and have joined a terrorist group and are actively working to kill US citizens?
 
The problem is, if they are part of a 'terrorist group' then... theyve kind of stated their intentions.

I dont really see why its that bad... I mean, drone strikes themselves are a bigger moral quandry imo.

What's from stopping someone from abusing this power and having political opponents, or civilians knocked off and claiming they were terrorists.
 

~Devil Trigger~

In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
I still think al-Awlaki's killing was fine.

He actively took arms against his country and arresting him was near impossible.
 

joe2187

Banned
Great title, the memo clearly states it would be americans working for Al-Qa'ida that were senior officials in that program and were planning imminent attacks, and even then, you need enough proof that you are unable to capture them. Title makes it sound like they can use drone strikes against regular ass people.

I AINT GOT TIME TO READ BARACK OSAMA'S GON BOMB MY HOUSE FOR MY GUNS!
 

wenis

Registered for GAF on September 11, 2001.
Complete fucking lunacy. That's all our government is good at bringing to the table anymore.
 
better title.

Great title, the memo clearly states it would be americans working for Al-Qa'ida that were senior officials in that program and were planning imminent attacks, and even then, you need enough proof that you are unable to capture them. Title makes it sound like they can use drone strikes against regular ass people.

Wasn't my intention. Took it from the article's title.
 

krazen

Member
lolz@ senior al queda officials that happen to be american.

Its a "Oh shit, we killed accidentally killed an American civilian...lets try to cover it up!" clause.

Also known as the Dave Chapelle 'Sprinkle some crack on em' skit.
 

Batman

Banned
My friend went to Yemen for a few months and when he came back we had a conversation about the drone strikes going on there. He personally knows people who lost children and wives due to these drone strikes and there is a huge buildup of regular citizens who want revenge. The US government has already admitted that they are okay with killing people who happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time as long as they kill at least one terrorist in a single bombing.
 

Agnostic

but believes in Chael
This is not the memo we are looking for. This could force their hand and release the good shit if pressure builds.
 

numble

Member
The law. Judiciary. House. Senate. Voters... etc...
How does the law protect against extrajudicial killing? His example is a stretch, but what about targeted assassinations of say, members of ETIM, who are a US-designated terrorist group, or rebels against a friendly regime? There is little oversight when there is no need to present evidence, especially if you can hide behind state secrets privileges, the action occurred overseas and far away, making evidence collection to prove anything difficult, especially when you're counting on the oversight occurring after the fact. Think of the difficulty of Lincoln's Spot Resolutions x100.
 

Tuck

Member
Great title, the memo clearly states it would be americans working for Al-Qa'ida that were senior officials in that program and were planning imminent attacks, and even then, you need enough proof that you are unable to capture them. Title makes it sound like they can use drone strikes against regular ass people.

This. If they are part of a terrorist group, they have given up their rights.
 

Phoenix

Member
All of this is about taking out people in a foreign country - something I don't think we've ever REALLY tried to prevent before. If you are an American in the midst of Taliban, they aren't going to try to shoot 'around' you.
 
My friend went to Yemen for a few months and when he came back we had a conversation about the drone strikes going on there. He personally knows people who lost children and wives due to these drone strikes and there is a huge buildup of regular citizens who want revenge. The US government has already admitted that they are okay with killing people who happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time as long as they kill at least one terrorist in a single bombing.

As is pretty much the case in any definition of just war. Collateral damage is an unfortunate side effect. But its not as if there aren't other regulation about when they can strike (regarding who else is around and other factors). Most of the times there is collateral damage is when these terrorists uses human shields.
From the ICC
Under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable, does not in itself constitute a war crime. International humanitarian law and the Rome Statute permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives,[9] even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur. A crime occurs if there is an intentional attack directed against civilians (principle of distinction) (Article 8(2)(b)(i)) or an attack is launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage (principle of proportionality)

(Article 8(2)(b)(iv). Article 8(2)(b)(iv) criminalizes:
Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;
Article 8(2)(b)(iv) draws on the principles in Article 51(5)(b) of the 1977 Additional Protocol I to the 1949 Geneva Conventions, but restricts the criminal prohibition to cases that are "clearly" excessive. The application of Article 8(2)(b)(iv) requires, inter alia, an assessment of:
(a) the anticipated civilian damage or injury;
(b) the anticipated military advantage;
(c) and whether (a) was "clearly excessive" in relation to (b).

All of this is about taking out people in a foreign country - something I don't think we've ever REALLY tried to prevent before. If you are an American in the midst of Taliban, they aren't going to try to shoot 'around' you.

The distinction here is that the American can be the target not just killed in an other attack.
 

~Devil Trigger~

In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
lolz@ senior al queda officials that happen to be american.

Its a "Oh shit, we killed accidentally killed an American civilian...lets try to cover it up!" clause.

Accidentally?

they tried and killed em.

It was no secret that they wanted him dead or alive.
 
How does the law protect against extrajudicial killing? His example is a stretch, but what about targeted assassinations of say, members of ETIM, who are a US-designated terrorist group, or rebels against a friendly regime? There is little oversight when there is no need to present evidence, especially if you can hide behind state secrets privileges, the action occurred overseas and far away, making evidence collection to prove anything difficult, especially when you're counting on the oversight occurring after the fact. Think of the difficulty of Lincoln's Spot Resolutions x100.

thanks dude this is a much better example.
 

DrSlek

Member
It always seemed kind of weird that the US gov. is so open about killing "suspected" terrorists.

I mean....what if the guy wasn't one? it doesn't exactly make the US any friends. Neither does the whole double tapping thing...
 

numble

Member
Great title, the memo clearly states it would be americans working for Al-Qa'ida that were senior officials in that program and were planning imminent attacks, and even then, you need enough proof that you are unable to capture them. Title makes it sound like they can use drone strikes against regular ass people.
The memo's focus is not on the fact that it is an al-Qaeda leader or from an associated force, but it lays out the conditions for any killing of a US civilian overseas, even though it addresses the hypothetical of an al-Qaeda linked citizen.

You think that the conclusion of the memo is that if there is a US citizen who meets the following conditions, but is NOT associated with al-Qaeda, that a targeted killing would be illegal?

1) an imminent violent threat to the US
2) incapable of being captured
 

Phoenix

Member
As is pretty much the case in any definition of just war. Collateral damage is an unfortunate side effect. But its not as if there aren't other regulation about when they can strike (regarding who else is around and other factors). Most of the times there is collateral damage is when these terrorists uses human shields.
From the ICC




The distinction here is that the American can be the target not just killed in an other attack.

That's kinda my point. If you've decided to sit in with the enemy, you can't expect your citizenship rights to protect you in any way.
 

Batman

Banned
As is pretty much any definition of just war. Collateral damage is an unfortunate side effect. But its not as if there aren't other regulation about when they can strike (regarding who else is around and other factors). Most of the times there is collateral damage is when these terrorists uses human shields.
From the ICC

The US is not at war with Yemen, they have been air striking Yemen for almost two years and in the process have done plenty of damage. So basically they are going after Yemen born terrorists and now they are deciding to justify what they have been doing by saying they are going after US citizens who want to wage war against the US.

Even Panetta got caught lying recently again : http://www.businessinsider.com/npr-...-about-civilian-casualties-from-drones-2013-2
 

DrSlek

Member
The US is not at war with Yemen, they have been air striking Yemen for almost two years and in the process have done plenty of damage.

I'm actually surprised that the Yemeni government isn't facing a rebellion for allowing this kind of thing to happen for several years.
 

Batman

Banned
I'm actually surprised that the Yemeni government isn't facing a rebellion for allowing this kind of thing to happen for several years.

With the recent outing of their previous President the citizens are always ready for a civil war at any moment because now they don't trust their current President. Coupled with the country being extremely poor and Saudi Arabia despising the country, Yemen is in a horrible position right now and it's only getting worse.
 
The US is not at war with Yemen, they have been air striking Yemen for almost two years and in the process have done plenty of damage.

No but we are at war with people within yemen according to US law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization_for_Use_of_Military_Force_Against_Terrorists

The US is not at war with Yemen, they have been air striking Yemen for almost two years and in the process have done plenty of damage. So basically they are going after Yemen born terrorists and now they are deciding to justify what they have been doing by saying they are going after US citizens who want to wage war against the US.

Even Panetta got caught lying recently again : http://www.businessinsider.com/npr-...-about-civilian-casualties-from-drones-2013-2

That's not what this memo is about. There is congressional authorization for killing yemeni born terrorists who are not US citizens.
 

Salvadora

Member
the U.S. government can order the killing of American citizens if they are believed to be “senior operational leaders” of al-Qaida or “an associated force” -- even if there is no intelligence indicating they are engaged in an active plot to attack the U.S.
This is disgusting.
 
This is disgusting.

That's not saying what you think it saying. Its that they don't have to be an active part of a particular plan. They just have to have evidence of them part of a group which is a imminent threat to the US and no proof they've left (probably being found with a bunch of other terrorist).

Its so they don't have to specifically tie them to a single plot. Not to give them blanket authority. They still have to be a part of terrorist organization with evidence
PlSxn8f.png
 

Salvadora

Member
That's not saying what you think it saying. Its that they don't have to be an active part of a particular plan. They just have to have evidence of them part of a group which is a imminent threat to the US and no proof they've left (probably being found with a bunch of other terrorist).

Its so they don't have to specifically tie them to a single plot. Not to give them blanket authority. They still have to be a part of terrorist organization with evidence
PlSxn8f.png
The fact that the US can assassinate their own citizens legally is deeply unsettling.
 
The fact that the US can assassinate their own citizens legally is deeply unsettling.

So American's are immune from being killed by US troops?

A person who as taken up arms against a country is immune due to the place of his birth?

And this isn't an assassination because these people have taken up arms. They're enemy combatants.
 

Farooq

Banned
So American's are immune from being killed by US troops?

A person who as taken up arms against a country is immune due to the place of his birth?

And this isn't an assassination because these people have taken up arms. They're enemy combatants.

The constitution provides every American citizen with due process.

The lawyers for Obama are speculating what the law is, the Executive branch is suppose to implement and enforce the law. The Judicial Branch is suppose to tell Americans what the Constitution says.

Any attempt to bring this issue to court is blocked by the Obama administration. So Obama's interpretation cannot be tested in court.

So what you have is Obama interpreting his own power and the limits of his own power without any oversight from any of the other branches of government.

That is very unsettling.
 
The constitution provides every American citizen with due process.

The lawyers for Obama are speculating what the law is, the Executive branch is suppose to implement and enforce the law. The Judicial Branch is suppose to tell Americans what the Constitution says.

Any attempt to bring this issue to court is block by the Obama administration. So Obama's interpretation cannot be tested in court.

So what you have is Obama interpreting his own power and the limits of his own power without any oversight from any of the other branches of government.

That is very unsettling.

this. everything else is irrelevant and the act of cowards.
 
Great title, the memo clearly states it would be americans working for Al-Qa'ida that were senior officials in that program and were planning imminent attacks, and even then, you need enough proof that you are unable to capture them. Title makes it sound like they can use drone strikes against regular ass people.

The problem is that all those determinations are entirely arbitrary with virtually no checks... so yeah it's pretty ridiculous. No, they can't just blow up your house, but they wouldn't need a WHOLE lot to justify it. I'm sure you could find some angsty high school kids out there posting on message boards that would meet this standard as reasonable targets.
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
I really don't see how drone striking a terrorist along with a crap load of civvies is going to help win the war on terror. It's all well and good that the U.S has an acceptable level of collateral damage, but these people have relatives; they have friends and family some of whom will want revenge. You're just going to give these terrorist groups more recruits, and some of these guys wouldn't even be driven by some fucked up ideology, but instead be motivated by vengeance. Poverty in the Arab/Muslim world is what allows these nutjobs to swell their ranks.

One thing that really stood out to me when I was reading about Ajmal Kasab; the only Pakistani terrorist captured alive during the 2008 Mumbai Terrorist attacks. Was how he was never motivated by some warped sense of religious duty to do what he did. But rather that the terrorist leaders promised to take care of his family financially if he joined up. In fact, he pretty much offered to render the same services to India if they'd do the same. Education and helping to reduce poverty in these regions is going have much more tangible results in curbing Islamist terrorism, than drone striking every damn thing that moves.
 
The constitution provides every American citizen with due process.

The lawyers for Obama are speculating what the law is, the Executive branch is suppose to implement and enforce the law. The Judicial Branch is suppose to tell Americans what the Constitution says.

Any attempt to bring this issue to court is blocked by the Obama administration. So Obama's interpretation cannot be tested in court.


So what you have is Obama interpreting his own power and the limits of his own power without any oversight from any of the other branches of government.

That is very unsettling.

Do you have any prove of this? You have to have standing to sue. You can't sue based on hypotheticals.

There is a lawsuit pending which I'm sure will test this power. We don't have premptive judicial review.

And its not like the justice department is making this up out of thin air. They clearly cite where they believe they get the authority citing precedent and laws. I'm sure it will be seen on court.

I really don't see how drone striking a terrorist along with a crap load of civvies is going to help win the war on terror. It's all well and good that the U.S has an acceptable level of collateral damage, but these people have relatives; they have friends and family some of whom will want revenge. You're just going to give these terrorist groups more recruits, and some of these guys wouldn't even be driven by some fucked up ideology, but instead be motivated by vengeance. Poverty in the Arab/Muslim world is what allows these nutjobs to swell their ranks.

One thing that really stood out to me when I was reading about Ajmal Kasab; the only Pakistani terrorist captured alive during the 2008 Mumbai Terrorist attacks. Was how he was never motivated by some warped sense of religious duty to do what he did. But rather that the terrorist leaders promised to take care of his family financially if he joined up. In fact, he pretty much offered to render the same services to India if they'd do the same. Education and helping to reduce poverty in these regions is going have much more tangible results in curbing Islamist terrorism, than drone striking every damn thing that moves.

So what do we do with the people currently attacking the US? That's who these attacks are targeting. We've also built schools, trained policeman, etc. We're not just bombing.

Though more of that could be justified I'm sure
 

way more

Member
I have to imagine that the law considers the act someone traveling 1,000s of miles, over oceans to live and embed with the enemy, to be a demonstration of joining the other side. At that point they seem to have renounced citizenship.
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
Do you have any prove of this? You have to have standing to sue. You can't sue based on hypotheticals.

There is a lawsuit pending which I'm sure will test this power. We don't have premptive judicial review.

And its not like the justice department is making this up out of thin air. They clearly cite where they believe they get the authority citing precedent and laws. I'm sure it will be seen on court.



So what do we do with the people currently attacking the US? That's who these attacks are targeting. We've also built schools, trained policeman, etc. We're not just bombing.

Though more of that could be justified I'm sure

Really? There are people currently attacking the U.S in Yemen and Somalia that makes it ok to go trigger happy with the drone strikes?
 

Gallbaro

Banned
I have to imagine that the law considers the act someone traveling 1,000s of miles, over oceans to live and embed with the enemy, to be a demonstration of joining the other side. At that point they seem to have renounced citizenship.

Except that what constitutes an enemy is largely a bullshit definition.
 

Phoenix

Member
The constitution provides every American citizen with due process.

So you're saying that if an American citizen joins the Taliban or is actively supporting the Taliban (or other organization) that we need to bring them into court even though they have taken up arms or support an enemy?
 
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