ElBoxyBrown
Banned
It won't tip the balance cuz Western devs have a lot of money to sway the industry but it will probably be the generation where Japan makes a recovery and shows themselves to the public.
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Kamiya: West/Japan Gap Is Enormous; Horizon, FH3, Days Gone & GOW Caught My eye
- Thread starter Poetic.Injustice
- Start date
It won't tip the balance cuz Western devs have a lot of money to sway the industry but it will probably be the generation where Japan makes a recovery and shows themselves to the public.
reelbigtink
Member
It's nuts because I also read Kanye and I was like, "Yeah, I can see that".
Just take it with you.
Member
Inafune paid a voodoo priest to curse Kamiya as revenge for that businessman crack.
eyeball_kid
Member
I think they are catching up in that they are finally starting to realize they can't all make current-gen engines and should instead be using UE4 and the like so they can focus on the content. But Japanese studios definitely are behind in terms of the Western AAA cinematic experiences and overall quality of the worlds. But they are also gaining confidence again that Japanese games can have their own unique style and don't have to copy Western style, and that's a great thing to see again.
I don't think that focusing on mobile last-gen so much helped them in this regard. It stunted their growth and experience as compared with Western studios. But there are some, like MGSV or Zelda, that can be held up to any current Western game. I think in part these successes are coming from creative visions that challenge conventions that Japanese studios are used to. For instance the new Zelda looks from a gameplay perspective very inspired by Western open world games, and yet its personality and perspective is very Japanese and very Nintendo.
For me personally, most of the Western games I find impressive are from indies because I don't like the Naughty Dog style where you feel like the people making it really wanted to be in the film industry instead. One thing that's unfortunate about Japan is there's not really much of an indie scene there, so most of what we get are games from medium to large-sized studios. That limits the kind of creativity and risk-taking we see from Japan that were more the norm in older generations.
On another note, I thought Jean Pierre Kellams (creative producer on Scalebound) had a good insight into why Western boss battles aren't very good:
Jean Pierre Kellams said:
In other words, he feels Western studios often take themselves and their games too seriously, which can limit the potential for fun.
narutomaki04
Banned
Idk, there's just as many Japanese games that looks fantastic still. Persona 5, FFXV, DQ Builders, Nioh, and Zelda Best of the Worst. Sure Not all of them are huge open world or next gen bleeding edge graphics but they make up for it in amazing art directions and style.
illmatic22
Banned
He has good taste
Them finally embracing standardized dev-tools really helped. Being slower to adopt that meant they were doing a lot more work to get to the same place as western devs 5-8 years ago.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
I'm surprised he's excited for Forza Horizon 3. Then again he probably likes arcade style racing games.
But with that Kellams quote - that's the sort of shit Miyazaki loves to think about and the boss fights in his games are arguably more interesting than Platinums (I'd say definitely with regard to 'giant' sized fights, which are very hit and miss on Platinums end). It's just a Western thing, it's a narrative thing.
Hades Hotgun
Banned
Do we have a list of prominent Japanese game makers who haven't expressed similar opinions or who have actually stated otherwise?
I think it is great to hear commentary from Kamiya on the state of games and on what he likes.
On the other hand, it seems like a pretty widely held belief that game development is generally in a much more expansive and evolving state around the world than it is in Japan. Which, if anything, is amazing for the simple fact that the opposite was ever possibly true.
Japan really did a ton for gaming for a long time, but now the rest of the world has taken up the mantle and Japan is an ever shrinking influence because gaming is now something far bigger than any one nation can be responsible for.
I think it is great to hear commentary from Kamiya on the state of games and on what he likes.
On the other hand, it seems like a pretty widely held belief that game development is generally in a much more expansive and evolving state around the world than it is in Japan. Which, if anything, is amazing for the simple fact that the opposite was ever possibly true.
Japan really did a ton for gaming for a long time, but now the rest of the world has taken up the mantle and Japan is an ever shrinking influence because gaming is now something far bigger than any one nation can be responsible for.
humansarehorses
Member
That E3 demo shows a dire need for him to play modern Japanese games. Specifically Soulsborne games.
He should see what a fun boss fight looks like.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
The Souls games were heavily influenced by Elder Scrolls. The impact Oblivion had was the reason Demon Souls got made.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
Well Kamiya is the Kanye of the games industry
Yep. Xenoblade Chronicles X is much closer to modern big budget Western RPGs than Dark Souls 3 in everything but presentation.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Source? It doesn't feel like trash when you swing a weapon in Demon's Souls and the aesthetics are hardly similar at all.
Same, but I wish it was true.
luckygodzilla
Member
So Kamiya got addicted to Horizon 2 as well?
Truly a man of good taste.
Truly a man of good taste.
humansarehorses
Member
SCEJ just wanted a game like Oblivion which is why they went to From Soft who did the King's Field and Shadow Tower games.
But that's not what they got. Miyazaki himself had to fervently argue against a first person POV because he, rightfully, thought combat would suffer.
Was he referring specifically to technical competency? I got the impression he was speaking more broadly.
As in, overrated?
What? No. Sony wanted an Oblivion clone, FROM didn't, eventually Sony gave up and let FROM do what they wanted.
There's nothing even remotely similar between Demon's Souls and Skyrim/Oblivion. Demon's Souls is actually the game that has influenced a lot of games recently.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
Chobel
Member
Wat? Souls games plays nothing like Elder Scrolls games.
The Scalebound E3 boss seemed more like Dah'Ren Mohran from Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate than any Western-designed boss.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
My bad. All I knew was the starting development of Demon Souls was the result of Sony wanting something similar to Elder Scrolls.
The man graced us with DMC, Resident Evil 2, Viewtiful Joe, Okami, etc.
Do you not like at least one of those games?
I'm teasing Mello. Kanye is trash. Kamiya isn't.
I loved all those except for RE. Not my genre.
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
Eh, Kamiya has been praising western development for a while. He cited God of War as a big influence on Bayonetta.
That's like saying The Legend of Zelda: Skywards Sword is comparable to Oblivion.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
That would explain why Scalebound looks like a Kamiya game for Western gamers who dont play Kamiya games. Just erase any semblance of his style and personality in favor of buttrock, multiplayer focus, sandbox, RPG elements...
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Wasn't Jaffe inspired by DMC for the gameplay of God of War?
Kamiya is still in the industry and making games.
Planeswalker
Neo Member
Western devs have always had more varied types of games than Japanese.
The difference was in the past, majority of Western games were on the PC while Japanese was on consoles. There was less comparisons between the two back then than today.
Westerns have only been recently releasing games on consoles.
That's why I wasn't much a huge fan of NES or SNES games.
I played mostly PC games (RTS). I felt the gameplay in games like StarCraft, later Valve related games (and mods), etc were (also mods included) were far more varied and interesting than most Japanese console games at the time. I did play Japanese games just for the story but I was never really interested in the gameplay (the gameplay for most console games back then was really basic compared to western PC games at the time).
SC1 BW is still considered one of the most complex and mechanically varied game today. Even a lot of FPS back then were the same.
People like Overwatch but IMO Overwatch doesn't really do anything that new or different compared to TFC (TF 1.5) or Natural Selection (mods of HL1 back then) or even CS mods (I liked the CS Warcraft mod as it added some depth in the game).
The only difference is that Overwatch does do a good job of having those types of gameplay on consoles (TF2 was an attempt but not as great as Overwatch).
Western games have actually gotten worse in mechanics (IMO) than before.
Japanese games on the other hand having slowly been increasing in quality.
For me, it's the opposite as I think Western games (compared to the days of 90s to early 2000s) have actually gotten less interesting to me while Japanese games have changed from being simple in mechanics (maybe with some reflex, pattern memorization, or trial and error gameplay back then) to a bit more depth which makes things more interesting.
I find TFC (HL1 TF) to be mechanically better than TF2 as in TFC there were things like being able to boost yourself with explosives and other things (all classes can do) that isn't present in TF2.
Natural Selection 1 had more depth in its gameplay compared to NS2 (though NS2 got better later but initially, I'd argue NS2 is less interesting in gameplay).
I like Japanese games more nowadays as I think they're catching up in quality and doing different things, while Western games seem to have more simplified mechanics compared to the past.
Even after playing SC2, I still go back to SC1 (the interface is not a big deal to me) because of how fast and smooth the game is compared to SC2. The way units handle in SC2 compared to SC1 is clunky (in SC1, you can do a lot with flying units compared to SC2).
Not saying I don't like new western games; it's more of a defense of Japanese games than anything. As someone who played both Japanese and Western games equally back in the day. I'd say Japanese is doing better than before IMO. For Western games, I usually prefer the classics than the newer games usually.
The difference was in the past, majority of Western games were on the PC while Japanese was on consoles. There was less comparisons between the two back then than today.
Westerns have only been recently releasing games on consoles.
That's why I wasn't much a huge fan of NES or SNES games.
I played mostly PC games (RTS). I felt the gameplay in games like StarCraft, later Valve related games (and mods), etc were (also mods included) were far more varied and interesting than most Japanese console games at the time. I did play Japanese games just for the story but I was never really interested in the gameplay (the gameplay for most console games back then was really basic compared to western PC games at the time).
SC1 BW is still considered one of the most complex and mechanically varied game today. Even a lot of FPS back then were the same.
People like Overwatch but IMO Overwatch doesn't really do anything that new or different compared to TFC (TF 1.5) or Natural Selection (mods of HL1 back then) or even CS mods (I liked the CS Warcraft mod as it added some depth in the game).
The only difference is that Overwatch does do a good job of having those types of gameplay on consoles (TF2 was an attempt but not as great as Overwatch).
Western games have actually gotten worse in mechanics (IMO) than before.
Japanese games on the other hand having slowly been increasing in quality.
For me, it's the opposite as I think Western games (compared to the days of 90s to early 2000s) have actually gotten less interesting to me while Japanese games have changed from being simple in mechanics (maybe with some reflex, pattern memorization, or trial and error gameplay back then) to a bit more depth which makes things more interesting.
I find TFC (HL1 TF) to be mechanically better than TF2 as in TFC there were things like being able to boost yourself with explosives and other things (all classes can do) that isn't present in TF2.
Natural Selection 1 had more depth in its gameplay compared to NS2 (though NS2 got better later but initially, I'd argue NS2 is less interesting in gameplay).
I like Japanese games more nowadays as I think they're catching up in quality and doing different things, while Western games seem to have more simplified mechanics compared to the past.
Even after playing SC2, I still go back to SC1 (the interface is not a big deal to me) because of how fast and smooth the game is compared to SC2. The way units handle in SC2 compared to SC1 is clunky (in SC1, you can do a lot with flying units compared to SC2).
Not saying I don't like new western games; it's more of a defense of Japanese games than anything. As someone who played both Japanese and Western games equally back in the day. I'd say Japanese is doing better than before IMO. For Western games, I usually prefer the classics than the newer games usually.
Piston Hyundai
Member
surprised to hear that coming from someone who all but literally idolizes arcadey stuff like space harrier
SolidSnakex
Member
I honestly never realized there was such a rift in the Eastern and Western gaming community.
What I mean is that, I've been gaming for 30+ years, and I've always had an insane love for both Japanese and Western games. I think games like Persona 5, Gravity Rush 2, and The Last Guardian are just as amazing as God of War, Horizon, and Detroit.
I like that we're getting games from such a diverse pool of creators. I like that Eastern and Western developers aren't always tackling the same type of goals when designing games. With that said, I don't disagree with Kamiya. Tech wise, Western Developers are going all in, especially Western developers being backed by first party money.
Japanese developers are experts at what they do. Western devs are experts are what they do as well. This constant need for fans to dick wave their allegiance or the superiority of one over the other is always baffling to me. I just fucking love video games. I don't care if a Western Dev has done it, or a Japanese dev has done it. Just give me good fucking shit to play. I'll mark out over a Igarashi or Ueda game just as much as I will over a Michel Ancel, or even a David Cage (I know, GAF's favorite developer...) game.
I mainly grew up on consoles playing Japanese developed games, so in my younger years, I leaned heavily towards Japanese games. As I got older, and became able to buy more games for myself, I began to purchase more Western developed games, and falling in love with those as well.
Kamiya has a point that there is a gap between what East and West developers are doing. That doesn't have to be seen as a negative.
What I mean is that, I've been gaming for 30+ years, and I've always had an insane love for both Japanese and Western games. I think games like Persona 5, Gravity Rush 2, and The Last Guardian are just as amazing as God of War, Horizon, and Detroit.
I like that we're getting games from such a diverse pool of creators. I like that Eastern and Western developers aren't always tackling the same type of goals when designing games. With that said, I don't disagree with Kamiya. Tech wise, Western Developers are going all in, especially Western developers being backed by first party money.
Japanese developers are experts at what they do. Western devs are experts are what they do as well. This constant need for fans to dick wave their allegiance or the superiority of one over the other is always baffling to me. I just fucking love video games. I don't care if a Western Dev has done it, or a Japanese dev has done it. Just give me good fucking shit to play. I'll mark out over a Igarashi or Ueda game just as much as I will over a Michel Ancel, or even a David Cage (I know, GAF's favorite developer...) game.
I mainly grew up on consoles playing Japanese developed games, so in my younger years, I leaned heavily towards Japanese games. As I got older, and became able to buy more games for myself, I began to purchase more Western developed games, and falling in love with those as well.
Kamiya has a point that there is a gap between what East and West developers are doing. That doesn't have to be seen as a negative.
Crayon
Member
I'd say that's a little further out due to the pre-defined character, but not beyond useful comparison, either. Comparing Starcraft and Gran Turismo would be... not very insightful. But I think it's plenty appropriate to compare oblivion, demons souls and yes even zelda.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
DMC 3 had two of the four things you listed. As for the buttrock keep in mind Japan still loves rap metal.
WickedLaharl
Member
do you like fishsticks?
Kenshin001
Member
I don't want Japanese developers to just copy Western games but his game looks complete garbage.
Same here. For last 2 years I only played Sony's own games as western games, nothing else. All of my favorite genres are now dead and everywhere I look there are nothing but online only shooters.
Only non-Sony game that interested me at this E3 was Steep from Ubisoft. Another attept to revive the extreme sports genre that will end up failing. I pray that it won't.
blame space
Banned
Forza horizon 3 looks so incredible 😭😭
grandwizard
Member
I think a lot of the rise of the dominance of Western development starting with Gen 6 was because all these huge PC developers started making games for the xbox and transitioned to console focused development. Before that Japan was a much huger force for consoles and thus most discussion on forums like this was based around their games. Infinity Ward, Bioware, Bethesda, Irrational, Epic and others were all PC devs that moved over and shaped the face of modern console games.