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Kamiya: West/Japan Gap Is Enormous; Horizon, FH3, Days Gone & GOW Caught My eye
- Thread starter Poetic.Injustice
- Start date
SolidSnakex
Member
It's not really much of an interview, it's just a yearly survey that 4gamer does with Japanese developers where they ask them what their favorite media was for that year and what they plan to do next year. And Hoshino's (P5 director) favorite game last year was Minecraft. Another Atlus director (Issen Yamai) chose FO4 as his favorite. Overall from the list it was Splatoon that received the most mentions for favorite game.
the two regions have intensely different design philosophies that are just going to be a matter of preference, and making it out to be a qualitative gap is silly unless you're on some keiji inafune i-am-a-business-man-and-western-games-sell-good-so-japanese-games-are-dead trip
but in terms of sales games from the west usually clean house and that leads to higher budgets which enables games of a larger scale, so maybe that's what he means. if you're interested in games that lean hard into their mechanics and systems as opposed to immersion and simulation and cinematic vision you're still playing an awful lot of japanese games these days. lord knows i am!
but in terms of sales games from the west usually clean house and that leads to higher budgets which enables games of a larger scale, so maybe that's what he means. if you're interested in games that lean hard into their mechanics and systems as opposed to immersion and simulation and cinematic vision you're still playing an awful lot of japanese games these days. lord knows i am!
At this point, i'm really glad the 'level' Japanese games are at.
What he's talking about is a difference in technology, but quality wise, those devs working on Japanese games are still up there with the best.
Persona 5 is essentially a PS3 title refined a bit for PS4, and is still enough to full keep up with the big boy RPG's even if its technology is limited. Guilty Gear is the same for fighting games
Even then Tekken 7 looks great from a technology perspective and a gameplay perspective, even if the hardware running it likely isn't all that strong current gen wise
What he's talking about is a difference in technology, but quality wise, those devs working on Japanese games are still up there with the best.
Persona 5 is essentially a PS3 title refined a bit for PS4, and is still enough to full keep up with the big boy RPG's even if its technology is limited. Guilty Gear is the same for fighting games
Even then Tekken 7 looks great from a technology perspective and a gameplay perspective, even if the hardware running it likely isn't all that strong current gen wise
MaximumSpider
Banned
Now I want the genius to chime in
Nah, I'd rather they didn't water down their games under a one size fits all mentality. Japanese games benefit from their uniquely Japanese approach to game design. Rather than Japanese games being molded into a Western style, I'd rather that other countries follow Japan's lead in attempting to implement their own unique cultural qualities into their own game design, rather than trying to shoehorn everything into a tired checklist of features that are set in stone. Something like how The Witcher 3 has unique Polish/European qualities that you wouldn't see in an American game. Maybe then we can finally get away from comparing a single country like Japan to "The West"
I don't really see how diversity plays into it at all tbh. Japanese games are lacking in terms of budget and tech, not gameplay design. The sheer scope of gameplay potential in the new Zelda simply blows away anything seen in Horizon, or any other western open world games IMO.
Sammy Samusu
Member
In terms of technology, yes.
But in terms of fun, no.
Monster Hunter still shits on everything from a high level, 240p or not. Zelda runs at 720p and 30fps and it won Game of the Show.
Same here. :lol
But in terms of fun, no.
Monster Hunter still shits on everything from a high level, 240p or not. Zelda runs at 720p and 30fps and it won Game of the Show.
Same here. :lol
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Lot of Sony games praised there..
Would like to see what a genuine Sony + Platinum co-pro could bring about since he's worked with the 2 other platforms on exclusives now.
Would like to see what a genuine Sony + Platinum co-pro could bring about since he's worked with the 2 other platforms on exclusives now.
The absolute wrong conclusion to take from his statements.
Eliminating Japanese out of Japanese games is the shit we got last gen, which didn't appeal to anybody. Not Japanese, or western fans of Japanese games.
Nier Automata?
Western games like Horizon Zero Dawn, games like God of War, like Mass effect Andromeda are full of quality and beauty, but their production values in terms of technical chops are the only things that separate them from Japanese games like Nier Automata, Persona 5, Ni Oh or World of Final Fantasy in terms of quality.
As far as actual game quality goes, Japanese developers don't really need to be on the bleeding edge of tech, or even a modern level to provide experiences that measure up to the rest of the industry.
Most of those games i mentioned on the Japanese side started from PS3 origins or are cross gen with Vita, but everything else about them elevates them.
FF15 may be the biggest game in Japan in terms of tech right now, but it also might fail the hardest.
As far as actual game quality goes, Japanese developers don't really need to be on the bleeding edge of tech, or even a modern level to provide experiences that measure up to the rest of the industry.
Most of those games i mentioned on the Japanese side started from PS3 origins or are cross gen with Vita, but everything else about them elevates them.
FF15 may be the biggest game in Japan in terms of tech right now, but it also might fail the hardest.
I have to ask, because I keep seeing this sentiment: What was the "shit" we got last gen from Japanese developers? What are the specific examples people are thinking about when they bemoan the Japanese game industry of last gen?
GrantDaNasty
Member
I always grow sick of the "West" (Every Country that is not Japan)/Japan argument that always tends to spring up. I'll be honest and say I've leaned a lot more towards the former as last-gen there was a sparse list of games out of Japan I truly loved (though a decent list, especially when it's all coming out of one country).
As someone who isn't big into Nintendo, I'd agree that the gap is quite big, but again, I feel like people are doing really weird comparisons in the first place.
As someone who isn't big into Nintendo, I'd agree that the gap is quite big, but again, I feel like people are doing really weird comparisons in the first place.
Astral Dog
Member
Bayonetta might be a mom in the next game
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
It's Zelda. Nothing else matters.
Monster Hunter is dismal to play unless you play it socially to meet the spirit of the game design. Without it, it loses all appeal.
I still play more Japanese games than Western games. There's more whimsy and devil may care attitude to many of the elements in Japanese games that I appreciate. And game mechanics- there are more surprises in Japanese games, so learning the ins and outs of what the game has under the surface is usually more rewarding than most Western games.
mrmickfran
Member
Kamiya's turning into Inafune.
Jack The Nipper
Banned
well they dont make many games for one....
were are my ridge racers and stuff, poor sega
other thing is things like yakuza are better than gta / sleeping dogs etc to me
budgets and sales
were are my ridge racers and stuff, poor sega
other thing is things like yakuza are better than gta / sleeping dogs etc to me
budgets and sales
Randomizer
Member
I don't agree at all to be honest. Please don't take too much western influence Kamiya, you and Platinum are the last bastions of crazy Japanese action games. Scalebound looks so dull and reminds me of something like Lost Planet 2.
Thankfully he has mentioned that he doesn't actually play any modern games and pefers classic 2D Japanese games of his childhood.
Thankfully he has mentioned that he doesn't actually play any modern games and pefers classic 2D Japanese games of his childhood
.As someone who played all of MH3U and MHFU and most of MH4U solo, solo Monster Hunter is loads of fun.
Lost Planet 2 was developed by Capcom.I don't agree at all to be honest. Please don't take too much western influence Kamiya, you and Platinum are the last bastions of crazy Japanese action games. Scalebound looks so dull and reminds me of something like Lost Planet 2.
Thankfully he has mentioned that he doesn't actually play any modern games and pefers classic 2D Japanese games of his childhood
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
How do you chase down monsters without other players? Some of them run to far away parts of the map, they're designed to take advantage of multiplayer strategy. That said, there is a level of quality to the game and great atmosphere and mechanics, so I can see enjoying it somewhat even if playing solo. It's just that the real meat of the game is coordinating with other players.
Use a Paintball or some Psychoserum and follow the monster. Same thing you do with a group.
Neoleo2143
Member
Monster Hunter Cross (Generations) is basically one of the best action games I've ever played, so much damn fun solo, haven't even played Co-op.
I think both sides have something to learn from each other, however, I think Western AAA has been learning a bit quicker than Japanese AAA devs have. I've always loved the Japanese influence in otherwise Western esque games. Metal Gear Solid is a Testament to how awesome that union can be.
I think both sides have something to learn from each other, however, I think Western AAA has been learning a bit quicker than Japanese AAA devs have. I've always loved the Japanese influence in otherwise Western esque games. Metal Gear Solid is a Testament to how awesome that union can be.
Games like Quantum Theory(gears of war clone), lost planet 2(multiplayer timesinks with singular objective), as well as games like MindJack(travesty to all humanity) and even games like Lightning returns(cheap padding and sidequest filler in an open world with minimal or horrible plot lines). Even Xenoblade chronicles X suffered from the skyrim western open world syndrome of playing down a story for a create a character system, which most fans think harmed the game and detracted from what it could have been, compared to the original.
All of these games on console were made with the false and mistaken belief that they should emulate western tastes and how western games do things. Capcom even took the drastic step of farming out their IP to western studios directly to 'appeal' more to western styles(lost planet 3 and DmC) to meh or abysmal reception. That never was going to work when it would never satisfy the audience that wants Japanese games by Japanese developers.
Radical Edward
Member
Hmmmm._. Ihad much more fun playing through EDF 4.1 last year and the Nioh Alpha this year than most Western open world, mp only, collectathon, cinematic whatevers. I am really looking forward to Dishonered 2 though and Horizon looks to have potential but i feel most western games are a slog to get through these days. All my opinion, of course.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
I know technically you can do it, it just requires more dedication to enjoy it solo.
GrantDaNasty
Member
I know this is a very pedantic thing to complain about, but I feel like DmC receives criticism from a vocal minority (which they're entitled to, but let's not pretend that game didn't review well, everyone else thought it was rad as hell, myself included).
Also, what about Dead Rising? Only the first game was developed in Japan, the rest have all been done by Capcom Vancouver, and that seems to have worked out so far.
Mr. Smiley
Member
Pretty fun interview, though that probably helps that the interviewer's kind of a Platinum fanboy. Literally word from word on how I would ask some question. :^) Didn't expect them to touch on Drew's design or the Bayonetta parallels either.
Not sure how much I agree with him. Persona 5, The Last Guardian, Gravity Rush 2, Gran Turismo 5 and Final Fantasy are my most anticipated games. I am not in any way a "japanophile" or whatever, those games just look great (well XV is iffy). Horizon is the big western game I'm looking forward to. Oh, and GoW.
CertifiedFP
Member
As far as graphics go, Valkyria: Azure Revolution is a real looker. Damned shame it didn't show up at E3, could have turned some heads.
The exception is not the rule. For every 1 Dead rising, there are 4 Dark Void, 3 Binary Commandos
DmC's warping of the established property left many of the original fans alienated and with its middling sales projections, left the majority in the end unsatisfied with the result, even though it was a decent action game on its own. That's why its not getting a sequel but DMC5 supposedly is.
dragonzdogma
Member
IMO,In terms of game play,is the other way around tho.
She was already a mum in the first game, more or less
Newtype-001
Member
Still prefer the look and design of games like Ni no Kuni 2, Persona 5 and Gravity Rush 2.
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
It's interesting to think of where western devs were at when the first Xbox launched. They were niche, PC-exclusive and they were constantly being upstaged by the great Japanese devs of the day. I suppose the momentum of the Xbox and the 360 took the US away from PC and allowed them to go mass market. It's such a fascinating turnaround to me.
hosannainexcelsis
Member
Ha ha, yeah, if this is Kamiya's idea of trying to catch up to "the West", I'd rather he didn't.
Due to the art style, not the technical specifications or power behind the game.
TC McQueen
Member
I feel like the big difference between western games and Japanese games is that western games tend to have premises/themes/settings and gameplay/presentation combos that appeal to a broader audience of gamers than most Japanese games. That's why games like Mass Effect, Deus Ex: HR/MD, CoD. Doom, etc... tend to be successes, because they get people interested in playing the game with their subject matter, and playing the games is enjoyable to most of those people.
Sure, there's always a few Japanese games that manage to hit the sweet spot where they nail both, but usually they either nail one aspect (premise/theme/setting or gameplay) and fuck up the other, or fuck up both. That's why you can get something like Xenoblade Chronicle X, which seems like it would be something that a lot of western people would be into, since it's scifi, but has gameplay that can alienate anyone who expected something more dynamic, like Mass Effect style gameplay.
I feel like Scalebound is riding the line between fucking up just one element and fucking up both, because the setting's alright, but the main character sucks (at least based on what we see so far) and the gameplay's not really that great if you're not into hunting games and lacks the usual Platinum polish. I dunno if that's just bad demos, but Platinum and Microsoft really need to get this stuff sorted out before the big media blow out before the game's release.
Sure, there's always a few Japanese games that manage to hit the sweet spot where they nail both, but usually they either nail one aspect (premise/theme/setting or gameplay) and fuck up the other, or fuck up both. That's why you can get something like Xenoblade Chronicle X, which seems like it would be something that a lot of western people would be into, since it's scifi, but has gameplay that can alienate anyone who expected something more dynamic, like Mass Effect style gameplay.
I feel like Scalebound is riding the line between fucking up just one element and fucking up both, because the setting's alright, but the main character sucks (at least based on what we see so far) and the gameplay's not really that great if you're not into hunting games and lacks the usual Platinum polish. I dunno if that's just bad demos, but Platinum and Microsoft really need to get this stuff sorted out before the big media blow out before the game's release.
Gundam Breaker 3 is also a really good looking game. I wish there'd been some demos of that at E3, since I don't think many people know there's an English localization of that game.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
And so Kamiya's slow shift into becoming Keiji Inafune begins.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
The only Japanese games I'm excited about in the near future are Pokémon Sun and Ace Combat 7.
Japan's games industry just isn't really competitive anymore.
Japan's games industry just isn't really competitive anymore.
Heaven forbid.
Because your personally only excited about Nintendo and Ace Combat, that's an example of competitiveness?
I did the exact same thing. We're facked
SatelliteOfLove
Member
It's personal opinion, sympathetic, realistic, but also very very late.
You need to go back further to the J-Computer Game scene or really, really take a look at catalogues for Gen 4 and 5 consoles. A factor in the below is that recasting of the majority as the total.
It was con-TROV-ersy (manufactured polarizing statements made by companies or factions in order to sell products/ideas) plus the very complicated and long-completing reduction of the dedicated gaming development of Japan. There was an amount of peer pressure and ostracism for stumping the cause of a Japanese game, placing one of those above a pushed non-Japanese game of the same genre on quality, or decrying changes and removals of Japanese developers from a scene. Willfully-oblivious fanboys ignoring the slow slide in the Pro-Japan crowd did the scene no favors (as it set up a shouty match between them and the decriers of J-gaming over two fantasy realities that could never be disproven as neither existed in the first place).
Up until a few short years ago that is. Then the unnoticed cost for non-Japanese developers, a different one, but just as bloody became unignorable to the greater public. There was not enough fuel for that headwind against Japanese gaming any more. Too many feet in mouths, the stench of desperation too strong.
That's why I don't care much either way when Kamiya says this. The reality is laid bare with no smokescreen of ulterior motives, and that reality was the real danger all along.
You need to go back further to the J-Computer Game scene or really, really take a look at catalogues for Gen 4 and 5 consoles. A factor in the below is that recasting of the majority as the total.
It was con-TROV-ersy (manufactured polarizing statements made by companies or factions in order to sell products/ideas) plus the very complicated and long-completing reduction of the dedicated gaming development of Japan. There was an amount of peer pressure and ostracism for stumping the cause of a Japanese game, placing one of those above a pushed non-Japanese game of the same genre on quality, or decrying changes and removals of Japanese developers from a scene. Willfully-oblivious fanboys ignoring the slow slide in the Pro-Japan crowd did the scene no favors (as it set up a shouty match between them and the decriers of J-gaming over two fantasy realities that could never be disproven as neither existed in the first place).
Up until a few short years ago that is. Then the unnoticed cost for non-Japanese developers, a different one, but just as bloody became unignorable to the greater public. There was not enough fuel for that headwind against Japanese gaming any more. Too many feet in mouths, the stench of desperation too strong.
That's why I don't care much either way when Kamiya says this. The reality is laid bare with no smokescreen of ulterior motives, and that reality was the real danger all along.
DangerMouse
Member
Yeah, it's a much better time now than it was last gen.