NoctisVsStar
Member
Surprised no one has brought up the mess that was RE6 going after the cod audience
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Kamiya: West/Japan Gap Is Enormous; Horizon, FH3, Days Gone & GOW Caught My eye
- Thread starter Poetic.Injustice
- Start date
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
Compared to Japan's output in the 3rd through 6th generations they are not competitive.
I have to totally agree with Kamiya here. I am 36 and grew up on JRPG's but ever since the boon of fantastic western RPG's the last 10-15 years I simply cannot stomach JRPG's anymore. The same quality just does not seem to be there. I am looking forward to FF XV & Persona 5 as my possible gateway back.
The Dear Leader
Banned
I agree with him, western games are just on a whole other level in terms of quality, scope and production. There are a handful of interesting Japanese games coming though, just no where near the amount of interesting western games. A lot of the big Japanese games are just sequels or rehashes of the same stuff.
Neoleo2143
Member
I wonder why.
That was also one, along with RE5 to a lesser extent
To be fair, comparing the entire global output of games compared to Japan's specific output isn't in anyway fair at all, and Japanese themselves have a complex about being Japanese to the point where they say things like Inafune and put themselves into a corner.
They have their own types of games and that has never changed, nor does it need to change. The global gaming scene from Europe and America just became far more prevalent and mainstream, where as Japanese gaming became niche because of that.
That has literally nothing to do with quality of the core games that do come out.
eyeball_kid
Member
I think there will always be a schism between WRPGs and JRPGs in that the Japanese have historically viewed (and continue to view) the RPG as a medium in which to tell stories where the player is just playing a part in the play, while the western view is more and more, with a few exceptions, that the RPG allows the player to tell their own stories, and gives them a world in which to do so. This creative difference leads to very different gameplay systems.
Whether that's good or bad depends on whether you want that freedom of choice, or you want the story. I think the main problem with JRPGs is that their raison d'être – the stories they tell – has not really become more sophisticated or mature over the years. They tend to tell the same tales of saving the world and friendship and coming of age stories over and over with often adolescent characters. Games like Catherine are unfortunately still in the minority.
I think Persona 5 might bring the JRPG into the modern age, certainly in terms of aesthetic. Whether the story moves the meter is hard to say. It's another story about high schoolers, so there's only so much you can do with that premise. But certainly it has created more excitement than the genre has had in a while.
Fixed2BeBroken
Member
Hahaha Same...
But in regards to what he said....Western devs got production and spectacle down Pact. Like....They just can't be beat atm in that regard....
But Gameplay wise? Japan is still there in the race....I mean...Bloodborne alone shits on alot of western games just off of the depth of the gameplay.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
The best way for Japanese developers to appeal to the west is just to wrap their game up with western aesthetics. Games like MGS and RE and DS disguise their Japanese traits until it's too late.
Kamiya should have gone full western aesthetics if that was his goal.
Kamiya should have gone full western aesthetics if that was his goal.
I love the narrative how western devs weren't around on consoles before the Xbox, considering how blatantly wrong it is. Rare was one of the most prolific NES devs (working with a variety of publishers like Milton Bradley, LJN, Acclaim, Konami/Ultra, and even Nintendo). The NES, SNES, and Genesis got lots of conversions of popular PC RPGs of the time, with varying levels of accuracy/quality (some of which were ironically Japanese developed). EA's sports games were system sellers for many. Arcade ports of Midway games were also big in the 90's. Western platformers were huge too, especially Shiny's games (Earthworm Jim, Aladdin, Cool Spot) and later Crash/Spyro. The majority of the N64's 3rd party developers were western.
I personally prefer older western games to their more modern stuff
I've seen so many "tech is not important" statements here. Well it might not be important on GAF, I'm pretty sure it is important for the rest of the world. How are they going to attract new gamers with last gen graphic? It's not like western games with cutting edge graphic are not fun to play.
I love JP games, but looking around me, everyone that enjoys JP games is either old or a retro gamer. Haven't seen new audience for a long time.
I love JP games, but looking around me, everyone that enjoys JP games is either old or a retro gamer. Haven't seen new audience for a long time.
Hot Coldman
Banned
I read the title as Kanye too. wtf
Strangelove77
Member
At the same time, people who prefer Japanese games shit on all western games and perceive them all to be the same. It works both ways.
There's this perception from the same people, a very outdated perception that there's only a handful of different gameplays. If western games don't play like Japanese games they have shit gameplay. Witcher 3 has shit sword play(it does), so it has shit gameplay. CoD is the same every year and is super popular, so it must have shit gameplay, lowest common denominator and all that. Uncharted has so much story and climbing is easy, so it has shit gameplay.
I hate to break it to you, but all those games excel at most of what they try to accomplish. Witcher 3 is a great rpg with great rpg gameplay, no western or Japanese rpg comes close, not in the last decade. CoD has always had tight gunplay, that's why people play its multiplayer for an entire year before a new one comes out and Uncharted 4 is one of the best tps right alongside MGS5, Vanquish and Max Payne 3.
People all band together behind a narrative and at some point no matter what happens they don't change their minds.
And as far as Japan is concerned, they can keep doing what they're doing and having the same fans buy their stuff - if they're comfortable with their profits. If they're comfortable just feeding their niche. If that's the bubble Japanese publishers and Japanese games fans want to live in, that's fine.
I think most people are just really disappointed in what happened to the jrpg.
Im of the belief that jrpgs just started immediately sucking at the same time as western RPGs became prominent. It was almost a coincidence. People who were previously playing FF12, Shadow Hearts: Covenant and Persona 4 on their PS2s all of a sudden had only mediocrity like the Tales games, FF13 and that Atelier stuff. While at the same time Mass Effect, Elder Scrolls and Fallout were showing console gamers what they had been missing.
And don't get me wrong, I don't think it's all bad, I love Nier, liked Resonamce Of Fate, I liked FF13-2 more than I ever thought I would, but it pales in comparison to previous jrpg and western rpg input.
Most western rpg players used to be jrpg players. And it's not just because western RPGs started coming to consoles.
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
He did. We got Scalebound. And no one is happy.
Omnistalgic
Member
Horizon and God of War are good testaments to that statement, but I still find the majority of western gaming to focus too much on things that don't affect how the game feels with controller in hand. I very much still prefer Japanese developed games, but when you have stuff like Horizon which seemingly nails both gameplay and technical excellence, I see him wanting devs from his home to catch up.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
I don't know- theres something 'Japanesy' (to quote Ninja Theory) about the protagonist's design.
Who exactly is shitting on western games, and why are you attributing that to the argument i'm trying to make?
I understand there are things western games do well as well as technology. I'm saying in terms of quality of gameplay, games from Japan can hold their own on games from the western sphere.
If your argument is that that is not possible just because of the west's technical chops, you are the one who are mistaken.
As for people just happening to not like Japanese games anymore, that has nothing to do with western games being 'better' but being more prolific.
I'd rather them not appeal to the west in that case. I had how the only solution some people seem to think Japanese games need is to destroy their own identity.
He's just pointing out the same observation that's pretty obvious to anyone who's been paying attention to game development worldwide.
Some people just found it easier to dismiss it when Inafune said it because he isn't as well liked.
TC McQueen
Member
I dunno, the most beloved Japanese stuff in the west seems to be works that take Western ideas and aesthetics and put their own twist on it, like Ghost in the Shell, Dark Souls, Cowboy Bebop, Metal Gear, etc... It's not a bad idea, you just need A) writers who can restrain themselves and not put in stuff that embodies the worst aspects of Japanese media in the public's mind and B) developers who can make a game that's fun to play.
In all honesty, the problem with a lot of Japanese media is that it's stuff that western people simply don't give a shit about, and you need to fix that first before you can really challenge people's preconceptions about Japanese media.
All those things you mentioned(besides Ghost in the Shell which is probably the most Japanese thing you mentioned) are exceptions to the general rule, that you just picked out above all the others in order to propagate a false narrative about 'western themes being superior and more palatable'.
To begin with, besides western backdrops, none of those examples are particularly 'western oriented' so much as more mature takes on already established Japanese themes and properties.
Dark Souls is just a core action RPG with a western theme that would be no different with a Japanese theme. Ninja Gaiden is generally held on the same level despite not having any real western aesthetic design choices.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
I love the narrative how western devs weren't around on consoles before the Xbox, considering how blatantly wrong it is. Rare was one of the most prolific NES devs (working with a variety of publishers like Milton Bradley, LJN, Acclaim, Konami/Ultra, and even Nintendo). The NES, SNES, and Genesis got lots of conversions of popular PC RPGs of the time, with varying levels of accuracy/quality (some of which were ironically Japanese developed). EA's sports games were system sellers for many. Arcade ports of Midway games were also big in the 90's. Western platformers were huge too, especially Shiny's games (Earthworm Jim, Aladdin, Cool Spot) and later Crash/Spyro. The majority of the N64's 3rd party developers were western.
I personally prefer older western games to their more modern stuff
Video game history in some people's minds, even recent history, is a terrifying funhouse mirror version of reality. Now we're getting these retcons of Gen 7 history. It's insane.