Support NeoGAF

[Bgamer90]

Sacrificing creative vision and artistic integrity for broad appeal and potential sales?

Yay big publishers.

I hope that the rise of the indie game studio continues... Levine's excuse is not a 'justifiable reason', it is depressing.

This is a really shortsighted line of thinking. It's just a box art. A box art isn't going to have any impact on the game itself.

On top of that, these advertising methods & tactics are necessary so that hardcore gamers continue on getting the games that they are interested in. If they didn't do it, the game would have an even worse chance at doing well.

You guys are complaining about the advertising, but I'm pretty sure you guys would be complaining even more if fewer "non-dudebro" games were being released.

Casual/mainstream audiences are going to have to be catered to in some way, shape, or form for niche "hardcore" audiences to continue getting the things that they like. Don't see why some don't get that.

 

[ScOULaris]

that tells you very, very little about the game.

As opposed to a white, handsome male holding a gun?

Fratboy Consumer: Wow, check this out! Finally a game that let's me play as a guy who goes around shooting things. Sign me up!

 

[Ushojax]

It's a shame but Levine is just being honest. Games like this need to sell multiple millions of copies to stop the developer being shut down and anything that stops people picking up the box in a game store is a massive problem. Hopefully these 'frat boys' have only influenced the cover art and not the actual game.

Just be thankful it's not on the level of this abomination:

 

[TheJollyCorner]

that tells you very, very little about the game.

what does this box art tell you about FUSE?

...and this thing was the result of 'professional' focus testing.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Some are acting like this is a frickin Duke Nukem cover.

No, it's not the best box art of all time, but when we start throwing things around like "compromising artistic integrity," I think it would be best to just step back and look at this logically based on Levine's comments.

 

[Jarmel]

We suffer more when unique games sacrifice what makes them unique for purposes of broad appeal.

Sure, this is just the boxart, but it points in the general direction of what publishers are thinking. see dead space 3 and dark souls 2 and most other franchises that have been 'consolized' or 'streamlined' this gen.

It's not the game though. I can understand complaints about gameplay but this is marketing. It's not even a poster. If there has been any streamlining to the game, that's separate from the marketing and cover as far as I can tell.

 

[Dylan]

As opposed to a white, handsome male holding a gun?

Fratboy Consumer: Wow, check this out! Finally a game that let's me play as a guy who goes around shooting things. Sign me up!

None of us have played Bioshock Infinte, but I'm just going to go ahead and take a guess that 80% of this games' content is going to involve that dude shooting a gun.

 

[ScOULaris]

Was this the result of focus testing too?

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

add printing cost?

That's just silly. It's a small cost, and if Sony and Nintendo can afford it, why wouldn't 2K Games?

Who says they won't?

Make one for the female lead, you know.

Sure, but it doesn't sound like it. Pretty sure Levine would have mentioned it.

People care that much about covers?

Like, if anything, wouldn't the way the spine look matter more seeing as that is what's going to show in a shelf?

Do people that really care about game covers keep the games laying down on a table or something so they can look at them?

I don't get it.

Me personally? No, I don't care too much about covers. However, I don't know if you read the OP, but Levine himself obviously adores covers. He talked about the cover of Bioshock (1) with passion. And sure, collectors want their boxes to look good.

The spine doesn't matter at all really, and also, don't tell me what my shelf looks like. My favourite games are put on display; the cover itself facing out, rather than the spine. Games are art; furniture if you wish. Some people put posters on their walls, so why wouldn't you be able to have your game itself as decoration? A lot of posters look identical to the box art, which only further strengthens my point. Don't be such a boring person and follow the mainstream. Be creative when decorating your house. Show some guts. Show some passion. You don't get it because you lack creativity and passion.

Again though, personally I don't mind the covers much. It's definitely no big deal, but you're argument for the spines is just silly. It's so small and I don't see how it would matter. Most spines are really ugly in Europe anyway; Europe may have better box-arts, but America got far better spines, especially from Nintendo's side.

Was this the result of focus testing too?

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/8667/pa285101ko0.jpg[/IG][/QUOTE]

Wow. Just wow.

 

[Bgamer90]

what does this box art tell you about FUSE?

...and this thing was the result of 'professional' focus testing.

It looks like an action game.

 

[mclem]

I do miss the times when people would just make games and the quality of those games would end up forcing dudebros or whoever it was to buy it. Remember the original splinter cell selling 5 or 6 million? God of War 1 did several million, hell GTA San Andreas aka the greatest sandbox game ever did 20+.

Now everyone tries to pander to what they think dudebros want and the funny thing is they still don't buy it and stick to Fifa/Madden and COD every year.

...because now they need them.

 

[MrCookiepants]

Can the word "dudebro" be banned from GAF?

Levine gets it though. I have a lot of friends who play games. Some who play games a lot. And it is near impossible to get them to try something new unless it's familiar to them in some way.

One girl I know bought a PS3 for Uncharted 3, because she loved Uncharted 2. But she would have never even tried Uncharted 2 if she hadn't heard it featured stealth kills (she is the biggest Splinter Cell fan in the world). In the end, it didn't matter that the stealth in Uncharted was crap.

If something that is ultimately inconsequential can get people's attention, then that can only be a good thing. Right?

 

[Data West]

And what did the fratboys say when you said 'no multiplayer'?

 

[beastmode]

None of us have played Bioshock Infinte, but I'm just going to go ahead and take a guess that 80% of this games' content is going to involve that dude shooting a gun.

Because that's not what sets it apart from every other game?

Braid: 80% of this games' content is going to involve this dude jumping.

 

[boiled goose]

This is a really shortsighted line of thinking. It's just a box art. A box art isn't going to have any impact on the game itself.

On top of that, these advertising methods & tactics are necessary so that hardcore gamers continue on getting the games that they are interested in. If they didn't do it, the game would have an even worse chance at doing well.

You guys are complaining about the advertising, but I'm pretty sure you guys would be complaining even more if fewer "non-dudebro" games were being released.

Casual/mainstream audiences are going to have to be catered to in some way, shape, or form for niche "hardcore" audiences to continue getting the things that they like. Don't see why some don't get that.

*of one picture on a plastic box.

You're welcome to find it depressing. I think it would be more depressing if games like this don't get made anymore because they aren't financially viable.

If the publisher thinks there's more money to be had then I don't see the big deal. The game is the same game whether it's just text on a case.

It's not the game though. I can understand complaints about gameplay but this is marketing. It's not even a poster. If there has been any streamlining to the game, that's separate from the marketing and cover as far as I can tell.

The game has already changed.
shyamalan twist.jpg

FYI: Games can be made for reasons other than: Let's make a ton of money. see movies. the best ones are not always the big blockbusters.

 

[Alaskanbullworm]

Was this the result of focus testing too?

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/8667/pa285101ko0.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]

They focus tested hard with this one, hard

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/yBoq0.jpg

 

[Parakeetman]

Can the word "dudebro" be banned from GAF?

Levine gets it though. I have a lot of friends who play games. Some who play games a lot. And it is near impossible to get them to try something new unless it's familiar to them in some way.

One girl I know bought a PS3 for Uncharted 3, because she loved Uncharted 2. But she would have never even tried Uncharted 2 if she hadn't heard it featured stealth kills (she is the biggest Splinter Cell fan in the world). In the end, it didn't matter that the stealth in Uncharted was crap.

If something that is ultimately inconsequential can get people's attention, then that can only be a good thing. Right?

Question is how can this get the attention of people if the cover looks like a lot of other more well known action games and whats the reason why someone would even want to reach out and look at the back of the case just based off of this art alone?

 

[T.M. MacReady]

people care entirely too much about something they will almost never even look at. Bioshock Infinite will sit on your shelf, and Gaf knows better than to buy a game based on coverart alone.


So let them market the damn game to drive more sales. More sales will lead to more games like this.

 

[sleepykyo]

As i said in the Bioshock thread:

The reason was obvious already, but i appreciate the honesty here.
It's still sad, but personally i would've got the game at a steam sale anyway, so it's not a big deal, plus they're planning to release alternative covers to print.

What's maybe worth discussing is:
Is making a cover that caters to the lowest common denominator but doesn't really stand out in any way (and doesn't have a very recognizible brand attached) a smart move anyway?

Also, the cover for Bioshock 1 was just as shitty.

ugh.

Brofist?

I don't know. If it was only 3 games a year, Bioshock doesn't have room regardless of the cover. CoD, Madden and WWE/MLB are all annual franchises.

He is right though. It is just a cover.

 

[T.M. MacReady]

Can the word "dudebro" be banned from GAF?

oh please, yes.

Unless the game gaffers are making is being discussed.

 

[ScOULaris]

Because that's not what sets it apart from every other game?

Braid: 80% of this games' content is going to involve this dude jumping.

That's exactly the point I was trying to make. In going for a more "marketable" cover, the Bioshock Infinite box becomes but another drop in a sea of guy-with-gun covers lining the shelves. I would think that there's something to be said for trying to get people's attention with a striking box cover as opposed to a safe, boring one like this.

But I realize how risk-averse the entire AAA development culture has become, and making a striking cover requires some faith in the cover's designer to have good taste.

 

[Enosh]

Really?

they did a tour around the places where you find a lot of people who play games?
the horror, it's as if they are trying to sell games!

 

[skarabrae]

As someone who actually likes the box art, if Levine does make a reversible cover it'll make me all the happier. But I'd rather have them spend more time and money optimizing the game than worry about what others think about the box art.

Honestly, I'm surprised that 2K Games has given his team A LOT of leeway in terms of the artistic integrity of their game. You don't see a lot of publishers getting behind a game that's been in development for more than two years anymore... and that's even with 2K Games posting losses this year.

 

[jmdajr]

Does cover art even help sell games these days?
I figure commercials are a million times more influential.

 

[Parakeetman]

As someone who actually likes the box art, if Levine does make a reversible cover it'll make me all the happier. But I'd rather have them spend more time and money optimizing the game than worry about what others think about the box art.

Honestly, I'm surprised that 2K Games has given his team A LOT of leeway in terms of the artistic integrity of their game. You don't see a lot of publishers getting behind a game that's been in development for more than two years anymore... and that's even with 2K Games posting losses this year.

Actually its more the marketing team that would have to worry which would work with the graphics department.

As graphics for the game would be pretty much done at this point, its not like you are taking any real resources away from anything.

 

[Bgamer90]

Me personally? No, I don't care too much about covers. However, I don't know if you read the OP, but Levine himself obviously adores covers. He talked about the cover of Bioshock (1) with passion. And sure, collectors want their boxes to look good.

I mean yeah, people like art. But I meant that in terms of it having an impact on the enjoyment of the game itself.

The spine doesn't matter at all really, and also, don't tell me what my shelf looks like.

Oh wow... didn't know shelves were such a touchy topic.

My favourite games are put on display; the cover itself facing out, rather than the spine. Games are art; furniture if you wish. Some people put posters on their walls, so why wouldn't you be able to have your game itself as decoration? A lot of posters look identical to the box art, which only further strengthens my point. Don't be such a boring person and follow the mainstream. Be creative when decorating your house. Show some guts. Show some passion. You don't get it because you lack creativity and passion.

"Thank you for saying what needed to be said!!!"

Again though, personally I don't mind the covers much. It's definitely no big deal, but you're argument for the spines is just silly. It's so small and I don't see how it would matter. Most spines are really ugly in Europe anyway; Europe may have better box-arts, but America got far better spines, especially from Nintendo's side.

I said it since in most cases it would seem like spines would more visible for many in comparison to the front box art. It doesn't matter either way.

I'm also saying this as someone who lives in America, where video game spines aren't generic labels.

 

[beastmode]

So let them market the damn game to drive more sales. More sales will lead to more games like this.

I think more sales based on a cover of a white male with a weapon will lead to more games featuring a white male with a weapon.

 

[Bgamer90]

FYI: Games can be made for reasons other than: Let's make a ton of money. see movies. the best ones are not always the big blockbusters.

Of course, but money is needed for big budget projects that cater to small audiences.

It's hard to make those games without money.

 

[EternalGamer]

I dont have a problem with the cover. I am concerned, however, with Levine's delusions of grandeur that the Bioshock franchise can ever be a frat crowd fav.

They are not making Call of Duty. They are not even making a game with multiplayer. You are not getting that audience. This should be obvious. You are not even making a product targeted at them in the first place.

This is akin to P. T Anderson being concerned to get Pixar's audience.

In short, if your game needs the Call of Duty crowd's money you fucked up big. A dozen pubs are chasing that chimerical dream. Learn how to make games on a sustainable budget in a reasonable time frame, Ken. There is a big enough audience to sustain the type of game you want to make if you do. I sure as hell hope you arent selling your publishing overlords on the idea that you will be able to tap the frat demo. You are basically stealing their money and lying to them if you try to sell them that line.

 

[Parakeetman]

Does cover art even help sell games these days?
I figure commercials are a million times more influential.

Id say it does, when in a store a good cover entices the consumer to pick it up and look at the backside which tells them more about the product which would drive the interest to purchase said title. If you cant get the consumer to do that, you have pretty much lost the battle of the sale in the store.

Thats how I see physical sales in a store. This does not take into consideration said person goes out talks with friends and comes back later to buy it. This is going on the example of said consumer is not one who is well informed about games.

 

[Haunted]

I'm not sure why they think they can tap into the fratboy CoD market of people who value games as much as they do salad dressing in the first place. But then again, what do I know of marketing.


edit: I mean, I would probably give him just as much shit if he were to spin and hide the intent. At the very least, I appreciate the honesty on display here.

 

[Enosh]

lol. Shots fired from Naughty Dog.

Sony's not worried about frat boys playing LoU.

I don't get it
from what I understand Elizabeth isn't nearly as much present in B:I as Elen Page is in LoU, so putting her on the cover wouldn't make that much sense and would just get a lot of "omg they put a woman on the cover to appease the dudebros!, sexism!" complains

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

You say that as if box art is the only thing... as if they can't advertise the game via box art AND media ads. Why do only one thing to market a game when you can do multiple things? Doesn't make sense.

If the marketing strategy has left consumers unaware of the game until they see the box on the shelf, then the strategy has failed, add that to the fact that the consumers that he is talking about buy very few games it strikes me as unlikely that they would be likely to buy a game solely on box art (given that it will fail to stand out on the shelf, imo)

In terms of Skyrim, what's to say that it wouldn't have done a bit better than it did if it had a more appealing box art?

Who says the Bioshock Infinite box art is more appealing than the Skyrim one? The Skyrim box would stand out more on a shelf than the Bioshock Infinite one will.

But how many of those people will actually read those sections or even get newspapers or magazines that give information about games?

How many of them will buy BI based on that cover?

...Based on what?

Based on the fact they only buy 2/3 games a year, & given that there are 10's(if not hundreds) of games coming out with similarly composed covers, & none of those have managed to broaden their buying habits, what makes you think BI will (or do you think this box art does anything new/interesting?)

heh; you say that like people have never been disappointed with something they bought, even if it did get good reception. You also say that like it's impossible for people of that audience to actually like the game.

The best way to sell a game to a particular market is to make a game that will appeal to that market, not to make the game look like it's competitors.

Man, if the majority of GAF handled the advertising of games then almost everything would bomb.

So not much would change in the industry then?

 

[kylej]

Who says they won't?

Make one for the female lead, you know.

niiiiiice

 

[ScOULaris]

I think more sales based on a cover of a white male with a weapon will lead to more games featuring a white male with a weapon.

Yup. Fuckin' nail on the head.

Gotta tap into the fratboy CoD market of people who value games as much as they do salad dressing.

Nice.


edit: I mean, I probably would give him shit if he were to spin and hide the intent, too. At the very least, I appreciate the honesty.

Yeah, I appreciate his honesty as well. I understand the reality of the situation, but I think the end-result is misguided. A game like this would have a better chance grabbing someone's attention with a unique, creative cover with striking aesthetics as opposed to being drowned in a sea of dudebro covers.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

FYI: Games can be made for reasons other than: Let's make a ton of money. see movies. the best ones are not always the big blockbusters.

Obviously. I like small games, too. I just want big ones like Bioshock to continue to exist. Those have to make money. If concessions need to be made for something trivial like box art, so be it.

 

[see5harp]

FYI: Games can be made for reasons other than: Let's make a ton of money. see movies. the best ones are not always the big blockbusters.

What in the world are talking about?

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

Yeah, I appreciate his honesty as well. I understand the reality of the situation, but I think the end-result is misguided. A game like this would have a better chance grabbing someone's attention with a unique, creative cover with striking aesthetics as opposed to being drowned in a sea of dudebro covers.

That's the kind of thing that draws YOUR attention. It might not be what empirical market research has found for random consumers in aggregate.

If this cover art decision ISN'T based on any kind of research, then I will agree with people like yourself that maybe this is misguided.

 

[RotBot]

Has this thread been mentioned yet? http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=503045

 

[EternalGamer]

The basic subtext I read in Levine's statment is this:

Bioshock Infinite took too long to produce and cost too much money. And now they cant turn a profit selling it to the same audience that loved the original.

I hope that is not true because if it is, they are fucked.

 

[Jarmel]

Has this thread been mentioned yet? http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=503045

A poster I can somewhat understand as people want to hang that on their walls and pretty often do.

 

[SapientWolf]

It's only a cover. I don't see the fuss.

Maybe that philosophy doesn't just apply to the cover.

 

[Unregistered007]

you don't make friends with salad.

 

[FyreWulff]

The same could be said about an Artsy cover that means nothing to the someone that doesn't follow Bioshock closely.

Their target is for to look at the cover and say: "this looks familiar" pick it up and go from there.

Please tell me this was a joke post

 

[Izick]

The basic subtext I read in Levine's statment is this:

Bioshock Infinite took too long to produce and cost too much money. And now they cant turn a profit selling it to the same audience that loved the original.

I hope that is not true because if it is, they are fucked.

All of these companies are trying to sell to larger audiences, whether their expectations misguided or not it's usually seen as a safe business plan.

Fortunately for Infinite, it seems only the cover has been sacrificed to pander to these demographics, but when series like Splinter Cell or others try and do this by "streamlining" (see: sacrificing) gameplay elements, they usually lose the audience that made them a hit in the first place, and the CoD market still ignores them, so they fade into complete obscurity and try to "reboot" themselves with every iteration.

 

[ScOULaris]

Maybe that philosophy doesn't just apply to the cover.

Well, judging by that VGA trailer...

 

[skarabrae]

Actually its more the marketing team that would have to worry which would work with the graphics department.

As graphics for the game would be pretty much done at this point, its not like you are taking any real resources away from anything.

Oh, I was particularly talking about budgeting dollars from a production standpoint. I'd imagine certain amounts need to be allocated to each team and, if marketing decides to address this, that just ups the cost of the entire project as a whole. I'm not a producer though, and never worked as one, so I can't say if this is accurate or not... though I'm curious to see what actual producers in the industry think of this.

 

[patapuf]

Yup. Fuckin' nail on the head.



Yeah, I appreciate his honesty as well. I understand the reality of the situation, but I think the end-result is misguided. A game like this would have a better chance grabbing someone's attention with a unique, creative cover with striking aesthetics as opposed to being drowned in a sea of dudebro covers.

You think the audience that apreciates creative covers is bigger than the cod crowd?

edit:

Cover design works just like Protagonist design. You want to offend the least amount of people while offering familiarity with the concepts present in the game (bioshock is still an FPS). People will apreciate what makes Bioshock different when they play it, but they have to buy it first.

Fans don't care what is on the cover, they buy it anyway.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

you don't make friends with salad.

It's win, not make.

Nice effort though.

 

[zroid]

Predictable, I guess. Frathouses... lol

Reversible cover, 2K pls