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[Castor Krieg]

you feel take 2 is disrepecting you with this cover? you would pass on a good game because the cover isn't pretty (assuming inifnite is good)?

By assuming my purchase is a given because I am a fan of the franchise, so they can go and try to cater to completely different demographics, that's how. Also, I won't pass on the game, I simply won't buy it for a full price.

 

[Odrion]

Well the casualization of the shock formula has already occurred with the very first Bioshock, so the cover was the next step I guess.

 

[Jacksonlee]

My biggest gripe with the box art is that once again they tweaked a character design that I've had two years to get used to and fall in love with to the point where it barely looks like the same character, and they turned Booker into fucking Anderson Cooper. All this time I thought I was going to play as this guy:

...but the dude on the box looks nothing like him to me. I'm under the impression that I might be the only person in the world who gives a shit about this. I'm cool with that.

arnt those fanarts?

 

[CloakedPuppet]

arnt those fanarts?

I hope so!

 

[superbank]

Reversible cover will solve this.

 

[Takamura-San]

My biggest gripe with the box art is that once again they tweaked a character design that I've had two years to get used to and fall in love with to the point where it barely looks like the same character, and they turned Booker into fucking Anderson Cooper. All this time I thought I was going to play as this guy:
http://i.imgur.com/QxXzF.jpg[img]
[img]http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110728014350/bioshock/images/0/00/Pcgamer_featured.jpg[img]

...but the dude on the box looks nothing like him to me. I'm under the impression that I might be the only person in the world who gives a shit about this. I'm cool with that.[/QUOTE]

I think you're right.... Your're the only person who gives a shit about this.

[quote="Castor Krieg, post: 45280105"]Excuse me? I care what is on the cover, I like my game cover artistic and pretty. I hate that this line of thinking implies "whatever, fuck them, they will buy the game regardless".

It takes 5 times the amount of money to get a new customer than it takes to keep one - Marketing 101

But you know what? Fuck it, buying this game on sale. [B]If a publisher is disrespectful to me[/B], I don't feel like supporting them Day 1.[/QUOTE]

You must be joking right?

Please explain to me how disrespectful is the cover for you. What sensibilities is it disrespecting?

 

[Tesseract]

fuck the haters, mr. levine. do whatever the fuck to sell as many copies possible. the game is still the game.

 

[gogogow]

Nowaydays, NO ONE will pick up a game, look at it, finds the boxart cool and BUY it for $60/€60. Parents will, during the holiday season, when the game is going for around $10/€10. I don't think there's impulse buy anymore nowadays with the internet. Boxart is less important, IP, word of mouth is. I don't think an explanation is needed why they choose for a specific boxart.

 

[Shig]

Well if it succeeded, wouldn't many people already know about the sequel to the game regardless of the box art?

"Many" is a broad brush to paint with. An impromptu survey would reveal that "many" people don't know about Angry Birds or Gangnam Style. Relative to a survey revolving primarily around people that buy one or two games a year (if any), "many" people not knowing about Bioshock is hardly damning.

Targeting the demographic you already appeal to and working outward from that base usually yields far better results than trying to steal away some other demographic that's repeatedly shown little willingness to budge.

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

Not taking advantage of the boxart as marketing tool would be stupid. You act as as if the Boxart is the only marketing they'll do for the game. You want your boxart to turn of the least amount of people. Uniqueness hasn't mattered in big budget production for ages. Be it movies or games.

No I'm not acting like that at all, Ken Levine is(my point has always been that if you leave it until the consumer is in the shop to appeal to them then the ad campaign has failed). Also the bolded is not strictly true( & contradicts some of what Levine said), it is also meant to appeal/ catch the consumers eye(& in my opinion the only part of the cover that could do that is the burning flag, which directly contradicts your bolded point, unless you think a burning US flag is unlikely to offend anyone).

Also plenty of Movies have become major successes by not conforming to standard Hollywood practices (but then again, they were suited to appealing to a mass market, I haven't seen enough of BI to know if that is the case).

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

Excuse me? I care what is on the cover, I like my game cover artistic and pretty. I hate that this line of thinking implies "whatever, fuck them, they will buy the game regardless".

It takes 5 times the amount of money to get a new customer than it takes to keep one - Marketing 101

But you know what? Fuck it, buying this game on sale. If a publisher is disrespectful to me, I don't feel like supporting them Day 1.

So you don't buy any games new because you find their covers personally insulting?

Even if it was "artistic and pretty" that's no guarantee that it would be to your specific taste.

Fortunately for this game most people aren't as petulant as you are.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

they turned Booker into fucking Anderson Cooper.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

[cakefoo]

Nowaydays, NO ONE will pick up a game, look at it, finds the boxart cool and BUY it for $60/€60.

Some people walk into the gaming aisle wanting to part with their $60 and they don't have a magazine or message board telling them what to get. They look at boxarts and flip to the back of the ones that look interesting. There's a reason that people who are dirt poor are that way- it's because they have no discipline when it comes to making informed purchasing decisions.

 

[Muffdraul]

I think you're right.... Your're the only person who gives a shit about this.

Like I said, I'm cool with that. I know the whole world is in love with Anderson Cooper.

 

[Scarecrow]

Are video game enthusiasts some of the most picky fans of any medium? Do you see movie buffs scoff at an upcoming film due to a wretched poster?

 

[MrCow]

ugh ...

i hope they didn't use the same technique to determine their gameplay and story.

no seriously you should not do group tests like this! make the game you want to make and some people will love it and some will not - you can not make a game for everyone..

 

[Mr.Monitor]

He said himself they're going to be releasing custom covers for us to print out and replace it with, and hopefully they will be doing a reversible cover. I don't like the cover art, but it makes sense why he did it. I'm getting it digitally anyways, so I guess it matters less to me than some of you.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

Like I said, I'm cool with that. I know the whole world is in love with Anderson Cooper.

I get your point about getting used to something and liking it only to have it changed... but this is a first person game so it's completely irrelevant. Your imagination can do what it likes.

 

[gogogow]

Some people walk into the gaming aisle wanting to part with their $60 and they don't have a magazine or message board telling them what to get. They look at boxarts and flip to the back of the ones that look interesting. There's a reason that people who are dirt poor are that way- it's because they have no discipline when it comes to making informed purchasing decisions.

NO ONE was a bit exaggerated, but these "dirt poor" people are getting newly released games for $60? They are probably at the used section or bomba bins. I'm sure the people you described exists, I was one of them, though that was more than 20 years ago, barely any money for magazines, or just read them in the bookstore and with no internet, I had to rely on the "cool" boxart and "cool" screens on the back of the box.

 

[neorej]

Are video game enthusiasts some of the most picky fans of any medium? Do you see movie buffs scoff at an upcoming film due to a wretched poster?

Have you been in any movie-thread on Neogaf? People actually do not buy a bluray of a movie they've seen in theatres a gazillion times, because of what's on the cover.

 

[LOCK]

I don't know exactly how boxarts sell people on games. I would imagine advertisements would grab the male 18+ demographic more.

Bioshock was successful with that big robot on the cover.

 

[Winterblink]

I don't know exactly how boxarts sell people on games. I would imagine advertisements would grab the male 18+ demographic more.

Bioshock was successful with that big robot on the cover.

And yet what really sold me on the game was the trailer with the first person Big Daddy fight. I imagine I'm not alone on that one.

 

[ExitPlanetDust]

fuck the haters, mr. levine. do whatever the fuck to sell as many copies possible. the game is still the game.

True. I don't think he should have bothered to address the backlash.

 

[Muffdraul]

I get your point about getting used to something and liking it only to have it changed... but this is a first person game so it's completely irrelevant. Your imagination can do what it likes.

Oh man, if only it worked that way. That'd be sweet.

 

[Mington]

 

[cakefoo]

NO ONE was a bit exaggerated, but these "dirt poor" people are getting newly released games for $60? They are probably at the used section or bomba bins. I'm sure the people you described exists, I was one of them, though that was more than 20 years ago, barely any money for magazines, or just read them in the bookstore and with no internet, I had to rely on the "cool" boxart and "cool" screens on the back of the box.

The content and prices found in brick and mortar "bargain" bins is pretty pathetic. To us, at least. To average Joe though, he probably thinks he's struck gold.

A fool and his money are soon parted.

 

[Bgamer90]

If you are trying to sell a game to gamers who only play Madden/Fifa & CoD & your advertising campaign leaves them unaware of the game until they see it in the shop then that campaign has failed, that is a simple fact.

TV advertising, yes. The advertising campaign as a whole (if it involves more than just TV)? No.

FYI, there are many ways companies advertise in-store too.

It's not trying something out though, it is following the same path as most AAA budgeted titles,

...If they never been in that path before then yes, they are indeed trying something new out.

That's like saying something can't be new to someone just because tons of other people already know about it.

& how many games manage to sell to the gamers we are discussing? I would guess very few of them do.

Fewer than the number of games that don't try to fit the mold?

In the same way the Black Album(or White Album) stands out on a CD shelf, Skyrim stands out on Game shelves specifically because it is muted unlike the vast majority of games.

Being different doesn't automatically equal standing out in a positive way. Again, color psychology plays a role in advertising.

If people find what's different to be dull from what they are familiar with, then that isn't a good thing. For many, it being different doesn't make it less dull; dull is dull.

I would have thought there are more games that "fail" that have a "guy with a gun" prominently featured on them than the other way around.

???

How, when "a guy with a gun" is exactly what mainstream audiences are attracted to?

I would have thought that either A: making a game that truely appeals to these people or B: Making a game with a sensible budget that doesn't require appealing to people who rarely buy games would be better than hoping the box art sells the game.

In terms of A, a big budget is needed.

In terms of B, a more sensible budget would more than likely mean having a game that's worse than it is currently (in quality). Would you find that to be better? Does a simple box art annoy you that much to the point in which you would rather prefer a game that's worse in quality as long as it has a unique box art?

"This game isn't that good but MAN does it have a SICK box art!!!"

Yep so many publishers are raking it in at the moment, It's almost impossible to think of one that would be improved by hiring somebody competent(not saying that any Gaffers would be able to do that job, but claiming that the majority of the industry is being run well is crazy imo).

FYI, for many devs, "the competition" is what is actually doing well in the current market regardless of genre. Devs that put big budgets into games want to be in the top spot PERIOD. They don't just want to be known as a good game of the "X" genre and nothing more.

I never said that the industry is being run well. To think that catering more to a very small audience would greatly improve things though is silly. It will (again) make things even worse.

 

[FStop7]

“We went and did a tour… around to a bunch of, like, frathouses and places like that. People who were gamers. Not people who read IGN. And [we] said, so, have you guys heard of BioShock? Not a single one of them had heard of it.”

“And we live in this very special… you know, BioShock is a reasonably successful franchise, right? Our gaming world, we sometimes forget, is so important to us, but… there are plenty of products that I buy that I don’t spend a lot of time thinking about. My salad dressing. If there’s a new salad dressing coming out, I would have no idea. I use salad dressing; I don’t read Salad Dressing Weekly. I don’t care who makes it, I don’t know any of the personalities in the salad dressing business.”

Shawn Elliott now works for the kind of people he used to mock.

 

[CosmicGroinPull]

Yes, and you can't have Elizabeth on the front because they'll say "Ew... cooties..."

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Games are salad dressing confirmed

Get the Dudebro II team on this concept, stat

Seriously, this is a long but I think appreciably frank way of telling us what we already knew. I think Levine's a good guy who is passionate about the product and understands the fans well enough, I just happen to disagree with him here.

At least have Booker aiming his gun straight up into the air with his arm around Elizabeth. Hey, it worked for Star Wars.

 

[we.are.the.armada]

You will want him to protect you.


I kind of hope that the buff guy on the cover inspires others to work out.

 

[Ithil]

Yes, and you can't have Elizabeth on the front because they'll say "Ew... cooties..."

Yeah...cooties, that's the word with two o's they'll say.

 

[beastmode]

The cover has the protagonist with a shotgun over his shoulder, right? I....like it. I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say that I'll be shooting a ton of guys in BI. So the cover seems fine, but I don't care about covers, anyway.

What Levine & Co have done is commonplace throught the entertainment industry. The boxart might be one of the most focus-tested parts of a marketing campaign.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised entitled gamers on internet forums, the kind who use the term 'Dudebro' regularly, would find the cover insulting.




Indeed.

So if someone doesn't want what Everyone wants they're "entitled"?

 

[Dylan]

Shawn Elliott now works for the kind of people he used to mock.

I'm pretty sure Shawn Elliott has on multiple occasions ridiculed others (i.e. Ryan Scott) for doing anything with packaging other than throwing it in the trash the moment they open it.

 

[CloakedPuppet]

*crickets chirping*

 

[EmCeeGramr]

They're just following tradition.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

Shawn Elliott now works for the kind of people he used to mock.

That might have a shred of truth to it if the game itself was being designed for frat boys.

But go ahead, elaborate on this point and convince us.

 

[border]

I'm pretty sure Shawn Elliott has on multiple occasions ridiculed others (i.e. Ryan Scott) for doing anything with packaging other than throwing it in the trash the moment they open it.

He also did extended segments on GFW Radio that were in part, intended to mock or satirize this type of marketing over-reach:

http://www.1up.com/features/gamers-surveyed-fake-games

 

[ScOULaris]

I can already see the hype blurbs that'll be pasted on the final cover art:

"Pretty cool." - Some Frat Guy

"Better than salad dressing!" - Ken Levine

 

[ruxtpin]

http://i.imgur.com/sPxHM.jpg[IMG]

They're just following tradition.[/QUOTE]

But how else am I supposed to know the movie will be cloudy with a chance of debris and sparks?

 

[Dylan]

My biggest gripe with the box art is that once again they tweaked a character design that I've had two years to get used to and fall in love with...

lolwat^

This is bordering on mental illness.

Do you honestly think that these design decisions weren't constantly changing and evolving during these whole two years? You can't blame Irrational because you decided to go Asperger's on their preview material dude. That's just fucking weird.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

He also did extended segments on GFW Radio that were in part, intended to mock or satirize this type of marketing over-reach:

http://www.1up.com/features/gamers-surveyed-fake-games

I'm not sure that presenting patently ludicrous game ideas as serious perfectly maps on to a respectable game having its cover art decided by marketing concerns.

How precisely is this real situation an example of what he was making fun of? I'm seriously interested in an explanation, not being rhetorically snarky.

 

[SlowRevolution]

Seems like a nonissue to me, and considering stuff we've seen recently like Fuse it's not even that bad. Kind of surprised they took the time to respond to the criticism.

 

[border]

I'm not sure that presenting patently ludicrous game ideas as serious perfectly maps on to a respectable game having its cover art decided by marketing concerns.

How precisely is this real situation an example of what he was making fun of? I'm seriously interested in an explanation, not being rhetorically snarky.

Standing outside a game store asking people if they'd be interested in a fighting game about the George Washington sounds about equally as absurd as going into a frathouse and finding out how to get the frat brothers to buy a game about giant robots in a flying city.

But that's just my take. Maybe the joke is only intended to be the absurd game premises, but I always took it to have some meta-humor about the straight-faced way marketing reps try to sell and position real games with absurd premises.

 

[Jamie OD]

flyingdebris-cloudybackground-weaponinhand-sparks.jpg

They're just following tradition.

God damn it I'm going to notice this everytime I go to the cinema now just like the posters that use a blue and orange colour scheme.

 

[ScOULaris]

lolwat^

This is bordering on mental illness.

Do you honestly think that these design decisions weren't constantly changing and evolving during these whole two years? You can't blame Irrational because you decided to go Asperger's on their preview material dude. That's just fucking weird.

Yeah, I can't believe they modified DeWitt's original "white guy with brown hair and stubble" look to this. Shameful stuff.

Spoiler

I lol'ed at your Asperger's comment.

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

TV advertising, yes. The advertising campaign as a whole (if it involves more than just TV)? No.

You think an ad campaign that leaves the consumer unaware of the product hasn't failed?

...If they never been in that path before then yes, they are indeed trying something new out.

That's like saying something can't be new to someone just because tons of other people already know about it.

New for Irrational is meaningless, this is standard practice for games of this type, so unless you think that BI will be the first game box that they have ever seen on the shelf they have seen many similar covers before.

Fewer than the number of games that don't try to fit the mold?

Really?

Being different doesn't automatically equal standing out in a positive way. Again, color psychology plays a role in advertising.

If people find what's different to be dull from what they are familiar with, then that isn't a good thing. For many, it being different doesn't make it less dull; dull is dull.

???

How, when "a guy with a gun" is exactly what mainstream audiences are attracted to?

The people who we are talking about don't buy games very often, if selling a game was as simple as choosing the right colours for the box art(even though colour will play less of a part than simply being in the consumers eyeline ) most publishers wouldn't be doing as badly as they are.

In terms of A, a big budget is needed.

In terms of B, a sensible budget would more than likely mean having a game that's worse than it is currently. Would you find that to be better? Does a simple box art annoy you that much to the point in which you would rather prefer a game that's worse in quality?

"This game isn't that good but MAN does it have a SICK box art!!!"

As it's a game I am never going to play, I don't care about it(the quality) at all. My point is that if BI needs to appeal to that consumer base, then the box art is unlikely to do anything to achieve that, a game that took into account "their" likes & dislikes" would be significantly more likely to do so(if it was marketed appropriately).

FYI, for many devs, "the competition" is what is actually doing well in the current market regardless of genre. Devs that put big budgets into games want to be in the top spot PERIOD. They don't just want to be known as a good games of "X" genre and nothing more.

I never said that the industry is being run well. To think that catering more to a very small audience would greatly improve things though is silly. It will (again) make things even worse.

There are very few developers who will ever be capable(for many differing reasons) of achieving the Success of a CoD/Madden, & I would guess that the herds of the "many" you refer to has been thinned a fair bit over the last few years. I have never claimed that gaming should go backwards, but moving from one niche to (an admittedly much larger) another isn't going to help either.

 

[Dylan]

Standing outside a game store asking people if they'd be interested in a fighting game about the George Washington sounds about equally as absurd as going into a frathouse and finding out how to get the frat brothers to buy a game about giant robots in a flying city.

But that's just my take. Maybe the joke is only intended to be the absurd game premises, but I always took it to have some meta-humor about the straight-faced way marketing reps try to sell and position real games with absurd premises.

Except that nobody is asking the frat boys which direction they should take their game; they are asking about what images appeal to them from a marketing point of view.

I think the whiners in this thread just need to face the fact that the cover of a game box is a commercial in the same way that the cover of a novel or a movie poster is a commercial. Next, people are going to be pissed at the kind of truck that they used to ship the boxes to the store.

 

[CloakedPuppet]

lolwat^

This is bordering on mental illness.

Do you honestly think that these design decisions weren't constantly changing and evolving during these whole two years? You can't blame Irrational because you decided to go Asperger's on their preview material dude. That's just fucking weird.

Thanks man - this made me laugh a little too loud in my office.

 

[olore]

I'm surprised people get so tore up over this sort of thing.

Levine is exactly right.

Yeah, nothing to get your undies in a twist about. KL is a hardcore gamer who understands the business side of the industry

Still, interesting that a cover makes nine pages of discussion...