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[HP_Wuvcraft]

What do you think the other kickstarters pay...?

DoubleFine Adventure was raising money just to pay its employees for the period of making an adventure game. This is the exact same thing.

There's a slight difference between two guys asking to be paid to write, and a company going "hey, we'd like to try out crowdfunding instead of going to a publisher".

You can argue that the money is paying someone's salary either way, but if you think that this is the same as funding the creation of a product that has actual outside costs involved... well, then, you're sadly wrong. I'm not just talking about Double Fine.

 

[Suairyu]

You can argue that the money is paying someone's salary either way, but if you think that this is the same as funding the creation of a product that has actual outside costs involved... well, then, you're sadly wrong. I'm not just talking about Double Fine.

Ignore 2P Productions' documentary for a moment, what outside costs does Doublefine Adventure have?

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Wait, some of you guys really think this is a shady enterprise to the point that you're complaining to Kickstarter to try to get us pulled? Sheesh, it's not like we're doing tentacle porn or something!

BigJiant, point taken. We definitely could have done a better job with that section.

-Tom

Tom vs Bruce vs Tentacle Porn, a new hit website funded entirely by Kickstarter!

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Ignore 2P Productions' documentary for a moment, what outside costs does Doublefine Adventure have?

Why should I ignore it if it's a part of what we're talking about?

Look. At the end of the day it's up to us "suckers" (to quote the OP) to decide what to do with our own money. I'm just saying that this whole "it's the exact same as any other Kickstarter" talk is just plain moronic.

 

[volturnus]

To put it another way: if this is breaking Kickstarter ToS, so is Doublefine Adventure.

We can debate the respective merits of either project, but both are simply just paying wages.

You do have a point, but Double Fine has real expenses, requires equipment and hires external services.
Perhaps it's just me being bitter, but I just can't sympathize with project by people looking for a quick buck doing something people do here for free, and Tom Chick's comparison with people that make movies and games for a living makes it even shadier.
And yes, I know people are going to fund it beyond the goal very quickly, it's not like most people give a shit about morality, anyway.

 

[firehawk12]

Wait, some of you guys really think this is a shady enterprise to the point that you're complaining to Kickstarter to try to get us pulled? Sheesh, it's not like we're doing tentacle porn or something!

BigJiant, point taken. We definitely could have done a better job with that section.

-Tom

If Tentacle Bento can get banned from Kickstarter, anything can.

Good luck to you though!

 

[Pre]

You do have a point, but Double Fine has real expenses, requires equipment and hires external services.
Perhaps it's just me being bitter, but I just can't sympathize with project by people looking for a quick buck doing something people do here for free, and Tom Chick's comparison with people that make movies and games for a living makes it even shadier.
And yes, I know people are going to fund it beyond the goal very quickly, it's not like most people give a shit about morality, anyway.

lol

I wasn't aware that this was an issue of morals -- God forbid someone pay money for a product they like.

 

[Zeliard]

wish the ULTRA GAMEPLAYERS guys would do something like this.

Haha this takes me back. The Jaded Gamer was ahead of his time.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Game sales are down across the board, many cool indie released projects never turn a profit.

Meanwhile, in Kickstarter land theres a seemingly insane audience just throwing cash at people for stuff thats not even out yet, not even a game, and doesnt even have any production costs beyond "hey do you have an hour tonight to sit down and write a bit of this".

I hope Kickstarter mania is either a fad, or console and other game platforms find ways to better advertise their wares to this mass of money hurling monkeys, because for each "WAIT TIL BOMBA PRICE" thread that goes up, theres a Kickstarter with hands out for 2 million.

 

[Aselith]

As for why we're not just doing this for free, that's a fair question. The most immediate answer is that we feel we should be compensated for the work we do. That's how entertainment works. Just as Joss Whedon didn't make The Avengers for free, Ben Croshaw doesn't do ZP for free, and Sean Bean isn't in Game of Thrones for free (I still haven't finished the first season...)

I get that but all of the industries and work that you're talking about those people have to front money for equipment, production costs or it's their full-time job.

What you're doing here is a job with zero upfront cost for you barring webhosting and this is a side job and one that you will be spending a fairly minuscule amount of time on really and it's even something you are doing as your hobby. Stuff like even Idle Thumbs they have to get a lot of expensive audio equipment to produce the podcast and whatnot so I understand that one but I just don't see the necessity here.

You should be compensated, I understand that, BUT why is ad revenue that most websites subsist on no good for this project? What's different about Tom vs Bruce? Seems like you're going to get your standard fees + ad revenue so why is future ad revenue not subsidizing your salary?

There are already standard funding sources that are well-established in the online print industry. Stuff like DF Adventure have to go around traditional funding sources because they aren't able to access typical funding.

Anyways, I loved Tom v Bruce so I'll be looking forward to the articles but this funding drive seems unnecessary and a smidge exploitative.

 

[Kintaro]

I can't help but wonder who turned them down. Was Quarter to Three not good enough? Are you not getting paid enough through that website? Doesn't "compensate" you two enough? Isn't that the point of having your own site? One listed on metacritic?

 

[Aselith]

Oh and by the way, Tom, I love the threads that your worst games of the year list generate here so keep on keeping on, you beautiful contratrian bastard!

 

[JasonUresti]

I'm iffy on this, just because they can't guarantee these will come out regularly. Diabolical Doc Geryk often has more important things to do than play a game with Tom and then co-write a funny article about it.

Perhaps if Tom could drop his "I don't know anything about sports/superheroes/whatever, but watch as I drop enough knowledge with a few carefully chosen mistakes to show that I actually do" schtick, I'd be willing to donate a few bucks.

 

[Slavik81]

You should be compensated, I understand that, BUT why is ad revenue that most websites subsist on no good for this project? What's different about Tom vs Bruce? Seems like you're going to get your standard fees + ad revenue so why is future ad revenue not subsidizing your salary?

There are already standard funding sources that are well-established in the online print industry. Stuff like DF Adventure have to go around traditional funding sources because they aren't able to access typical funding.

The standard methods of doing things resulted in the slow deaths of CGW and ZiffDavis' 1up.com. If they want to branch out into other sources of funding besides solely relying on ads, I'm ok with that.

 

[jooey]

Guys, your Kickstarter bugs me and crowdfunding makes me uneasy in general because it's like exploitation, I guess. Plus, people like it and talk about it a lot, so that doesn't help. Why can't you just do things the old, unreliable way and not do projects like this where you speak up and be honest about doing things you want to do, so I can feel falsely secure again? Thanks.

 

[Aselith]

The standard methods of doing things resulted in the slow deaths of CGW and ZiffDavis' 1up.com. If they want to branch out into other sources of funding besides solely relying on ads, I'm ok with that.

Both of those mags got killed by print not online.

Guys, your Kickstarter bugs me and crowdfunding makes me uneasy in general because it's like exploitation, I guess. Plus, people like it and talk about it a lot, so that doesn't help. Why can't you just do things the old, unreliable way and not do projects like this where you speak up and be honest about doing things you want to do, so I can feel falsely secure again? Thanks.

I hope that wasn't directed at me? I've backed 14 projects so far and I'm very pleased with Kickstarter in general but that doesn't mean there aren't inappropriate uses. There are no significant risks involved in this project since it's a matter of time consumption rather than actually putting money on the line upfront. If the articles didn't work out, they'd be out some times and that's about it.

I'll give me two cents on the issue and people can decide for themselves, that's the great thing about kickstarter. In the end, the community will decide what is appropriate for them and it seems like people are on board with this so I guess I'm outgunned here. However, I still feel not so good about this kickstarter.

 

[alstein]

Same, I am on board for this. Had the pleasure of talking to Tom and he was a nice guy.

I know a good number of the purged, they make up a majority of my Google+ feed. Was sad about the split last year. Tom's a good guy, but so are many of the purged.

I did post an article for Tom's site a few months ago around the time of the Aris controversy, and he was easy to work with and nice to me, but I know I don't really hit any of his personal red buttons.

Still post to both places, though you need to avoid the politicial forums on both places sometimes.

There is one games writer I would support, and she's still looking for her account here to be approved. ^_^


That said, I don't see why folks are hating on this, it doesn't harm anyone. It's just honest capitalism.

 

[Mzo]

I feel that this is an exorbitant amount for the "project," so I won't be contributing, but that's just the value I would put on their product.

I'm surprised that people have pledged money. They obviously disagree with me and find it is worthy. More power to them if they reach that goal; no sweat off my sack.

I do take a little offense at the point of view a lot of people seem to have that writing is somehow not a skill that merits compensation =[.

I assume that I'll be able to read the resulting articles online, even if I didn't gve one thin dime.

 

[Backfoggen]

I'd donate $50 to a Kickstopper.

 

[.nimrod]

I just skimmed through their archives on 1up and i'm baffled that people are willing to pay money to have some guys describe their multiplayer matches.

 

[eznark]

There's a slight difference between two guys asking to be paid to write, and a company going "hey, we'd like to try out crowdfunding instead of going to a publisher".

You can argue that the money is paying someone's salary either way, but if you think that this is the same as funding the creation of a product that has actual outside costs involved... well, then, you're sadly wrong. I'm not just talking about Double Fine.

There are a lot of writing projects on Kickstarter. Should they all be pulled?

 

[Catshade]

I just skimmed through their archives on 1up and i'm baffled that people are willing to pay money to have some guys describe their multiplayer matches.

What about Idle Thumbs podcasts? People are willing to pay $130k to listen to some guys hang out with each other.

 

[Palette Swap]

There are a lot of writing projects on Kickstarter. Should they all be pulled?

Yeah, there might be a reason kickstarter has a Journalism category built-in.

 

[1-D_FTW]

The only difference between Bruce and Tom vs 99.9999999999 of the games being funded on Kickstarter is Bruce and Tom are actually interesting and fun.

I got news for the old CGW/GFW Live crew: you may have joked about Kickstarter, but that would get heavily funded too. For the same reason. It's entertainment quality that's rarely seen on the internet.

Maybe droll writing doesn't have any "value" like some posters in here claim, and that's why the internet has failed at being able to charge for it. But Bruce and Tom are entertaining, so if people want to fund it, let them. We all get the result.

 

[obonicus]

I do take a little offense at the point of view a lot of people seem to have that writing is somehow not a skill that merits compensation =[.

This is the most alarming part, personally.

 

[Catshade]

This is the most alarming part, personally.

I can't really blame them when you're looking at the writing in mainstream videogame journalism.

 

[ToxicAdam]

At least these two guys are more likely to deliver a quality product than some of the others I have seen.

When I had my Games For Windows subscription (RIP), it was always the first section I thumbed to.

I won't be donating though.

 

[Prezhulio]

gaf kickstarter to bring back smilies - go.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

I love Tom Chick but this is absurd.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Why should I ignore it if it's a part of what we're talking about?

Look. At the end of the day it's up to us "suckers" (to quote the OP) to decide what to do with our own money. I'm just saying that this whole "it's the exact same as any other Kickstarter" talk is just plain moronic.

OK, let's include the filmmakers. They're filmmakers, why do they need to get paid to make films? Can't they just shoot and edit on their on time and post it to YouTube for the ad revenue?

And why should programmers need Kickstarter funding. It doesn't cost money to sit down and program, so why fund that? Same for artists. Can't be using Kickstarter to pay people for their time.

Speaking of, when you break it down, anyone using Kickstarter to buy equipment is ultimately just paying the wages of people whose job it is to obtain raw materials, refine them, design that equipment, build, test, package and sell it. Guess we'll have to cut that out, too.

Hmm, based on this new criteria it doesn't seem like we can justify Kickstarting anything. Turns out the money always goes to paying for someone's time for a product. Phew! That's a load off the internet's mind!

Writing about games is how Tom Chick makes a living. It IS his full time job. Any time he dedicates to this project is time he could have accepted a paying gig to write a preview or feature for someone else. I dare say getting Bruce Geryk's services at this rate is a bargain for a brain surgeon. There is no material difference between this and any other Kickstarter. They're trying to find a way to get paid to create something they're passionate about.

 

[FieryBalrog]

In what universe is this different from the Idle Thumbs project? Lot of whiners in here.

Do you think Chris, Jake & Shawn need $136,000 to talk into a microphone once a week or once a month or whatever it is they're actually going to do?

 

[Palette Swap]

I can't really blame them when you're looking at the writing in mainstream videogame journalism.

That's kind of a chicken/egg situation.
I'm still of the opinion it's harder to expect VG journalism to be something else than another PR channel as long as its continued survival depends on industry advertising.

This and the fact that I loved this column and Tom's writing could make me donate.
But OTOH, I'm not really a fan of using kickstarter to do one off projects like this. I'm pretty sure it doesn't violate the kickstarter TOS but as a customer, I'd rather pay a subscription to an independent VG news site rather than fund isolated initatives.

 

[FieryBalrog]

There's a slight difference between two guys asking to be paid to write going "hey, we'd like to try out crowdfunding instead of going to a gaming web portal", and a company going "hey, we'd like to try out crowdfunding instead of going to a publisher".

Oh there is, is there?

You can argue that the money is paying someone's salary either way

Yeah, you can, and you should.

 

[obonicus]

I can't really blame them when you're looking at the writing in mainstream videogame journalism.

I mean, it's just a point of view you see a lot, that somehow living costs aren't actual costs, I think it's because of the underlying notion of 'they're going to have to continue living anyway, so it's not really a cost'. Which is absurd.

 

[hamchan]

In what universe is this different from the Idle Thumbs project? Lot of whiners in here.

Do you think Chris, Jake & Shawn need $136,000 to talk into a microphone once a week or once a month or whatever it is they're actually going to do?

I think they needed $30,000 to get new office space, start a new website and talk into a mic yes.

 

[butter_stick]

gaf kickstarter to bring back smilies - go.

I'll pay $10.

 

[FieryBalrog]

I think they needed $30,000 to get new office space, start a new website and talk into a mic yes.

No. you don't need new office space or website to do it. They did Idle Thumbs for 2 years out of Chris's apartment and with an existing website.

I backed them because I want to see them continue and for what they already gave me, not because they actually require that much money to produce what they did.

 

[The_Hitcher89]

If I was a mod, I'd start a Kickstarter. Reach $10,000, and Kickstarter threads get moved to their own subforum.

 

[hamchan]

No. you don't need new office space or website to do it. They did Idle Thumbs for 2 years out of Chris's apartment and with an existing website.

I backed them because I want to see them continue and for what they already gave me, not because they actually require that much money to produce what they did.

Well, the new office and website were stipulated in the project description. You weren't funding just the Idle Thumbs Podcast, you were funding something much bigger than just that, even if you only cared about the podcast bit. So that's why they needed $30,000.

 

[Hari Seldon]

Game sales are down across the board, many cool indie released projects never turn a profit.

Meanwhile, in Kickstarter land theres a seemingly insane audience just throwing cash at people for stuff thats not even out yet, not even a game, and doesnt even have any production costs beyond "hey do you have an hour tonight to sit down and write a bit of this".

I hope Kickstarter mania is either a fad, or console and other game platforms find ways to better advertise their wares to this mass of money hurling monkeys, because for each "WAIT TIL BOMBA PRICE" thread that goes up, theres a Kickstarter with hands out for 2 million.

I haven't bought a console game in almost a year, but I have funded 4 kickstarters. Console games are at the end of gen sequelitus mode that does not interest me. Fuck em. I'd rather give my money to people making something new or returning to old abandoned genres that I love.

 

[Hari Seldon]

And yes, I will be funding this kickstarter, as Tom vs Bruce is easily the best video game column ever written. And Bruce is awesome.

 

[onlyindreams]

Wow that's fucking awful. I'm going to go flush a $1 bill down the toilet instead of giving it to this pretentious, greedy fuck.

 

[butter_stick]

If I was a mod, I'd start a Kickstarter. Reach $10,000, and Kickstarter threads get moved to their own subforum.

Well it's basically a classified ad on NeoGAF. It's not what I come to the forum for. It'd be nice if Kickstarters were banished to their own thread somewhere.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Count me in the "doesn't see a problem with this" group.

 

[obonicus]

Well it's basically a classified ad on NeoGAF. It's not what I come to the forum for. It'd be nice if Kickstarters were banished to their own thread somewhere.

So are most threads discussing games, consoles or accessories. Especially OTs.

 

[Elixist]

One guys a surgeon and they need a kickstart lmao, this shit cray

 

[onlyindreams]

One guys a surgeon and they need a kickstart lmao, this shit cray

seriously, if they cared so much about doing this they could throw it on a fucking blogspot. this is pathetic.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

One guys a surgeon and they need a kickstart lmao, this shit cray

I don't think the point is that they need the money. And to that end -- not that I'm suggesting that this is a good reason to donate -- but the fact that Bruce is a surgeon who (presumably) does or will make good money really doesn't undermine a desire to be compensated. Bruce talks constantly about how his career demands facilitate increasingly less free time for gaming, so it makes sense that this would be a complete non-starter for him without any form of compensation.

 

[onlyindreams]

I don't think the point is that they need the money. And to that end -- not that I'm suggesting that this is a good reason to donate -- but the fact that Bruce is a surgeon who (presumably) does or will make good money really doesn't undermine a desire to be compensated. Bruce talks constantly about how his career demands facilitate increasingly less free time for gaming, so it makes sense that this would be a complete non-starter for him without any form of compensation.

so lets pay him to play video games instead of save lives, that sounds like a good plan.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

so lets pay him to play video games instead of save lives, that sounds like a good plan.

I... don't know if I follow at all. I don't think $5,000 (for the sake of argument we'll just assume he gets half) is going to have him asking to perform less surgical procedures. So, we'd be paying him to write this, while the hospital (or whatever) would pay him to do surgeries. Again, I don't understand your point.