-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Kickstarter: Midora - 2D Zelda/Secret of Mana game Of pure awesomeness
- Thread starter outunderthestars
- Start date
- Status
CrunchyFrog
Member
Maybe if they'd gotten ahead of all this talk and had just been up front about the heavy "inspiration" on the actual Kickstarter page/video then maybe it wouldn't be such a controversy. But if you're just gonna hide it inside some after the fact update and then try to handwave it away entirely of course its gonna look shady as shit. It is a shame as like others have said the guy appears to have lot of technicl spriting talent, just needs a more original direction.
Well, from what I remember it was indeed co-op (x-player) with SoM("2") style combat,
but I don't know if there was also a strong story component too. So except for the storypart it was very much SoMish, imo.
But with so very few SoM-style games (or I never searched deeply enough) it makes me wonder
if that particular combatstyle + online component is either really that hard to implement robustly
or just unpopular in 2D (with 3D-action prefered by "those young ones" [that were not exposed to those old gems])? { *yells at clouds*
}Anyways, looking at the kickstarter page there really dosen't seem any Seiken inspiration present,
but something I last saw in Zill'oll Trinity - spells influencing your combat surroundings. More games should use that mechanic.
LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
Awww, people are so mean to the developers in this thread.
Wait hold on.
Is that...?
Is that a...?
Fuck it.
Wait hold on.
Is that...?
Is that a...?
Fuck it.
Zomba13
Member
Yeah. At first I saw the screens and thought "cool, a Minish Cap style Zelda game. Love the art." Then saw the MC screens and thought "Eh, looks inspired by but not a straight copy" then saw the assets side by side and now I'm thinking yeah, they just "up-ressed" the assets. That comparison by them did more harm than good, it's showing "here is the MC tree and here is what we've done to improve it" "here is the MC hay bale, here is our better looking one". Like, I love the style, the artists are very talented but they are just remaking the assets.
One unoriginal enemy idea IS TOTALLY A VALID COMPARISON.Dark Souls is a great.... wait a minute.
Is that...
THIS REPRESENTS THE ENTIRE GAME THIS IS GARBAGE
Cripes! $220,000 for a Wii U version? That's the version I'd want to back it for, but that's not happening...so nope.
Street Fighter and King of Fighters are... WAIT A MINUTE
I SHALL JUDGE THE ENTIRE SERIES AS GARBAGE BASED OFF OF THIS JPG
It is ridiculous to base your entire decision on a few stray assets. Based on an issue - which although valid, can be rectified within the day. You are judging an entire game and it's development team based on three sprites and a sketch.
outunderthestars
Banned
Man, why do I always have to waste several minutes on the KS site until I can finally see the targeted platforms?
Put it at least in the OP :-/
And yes -> Midora looks awesome
Sorry, I have added it to the OP.
As for the art assets and what not: I am not associated with the developers in any way. I just like Minish Cap so much that I would love to play a clone/rip off/overly inspired of that awesome game.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
You are aware that breaking someone on a cartwheel was a thing that historically happened and wasn't invented by some random manga right?
Tertullian
Member
The developers claim that they did not directly trace over Minish Cap's assets:
"None of Minish Cap's, or any assets from other games, have been used at all in the making of Midora's tiles, sprites, or any of the other graphics."
And honestly, I believe them.
It's pretty clear, however, that they took inspiration from Minish Cap's tileset right down to the placement of individual branches. I assume their stuff was drawn with Minish Cap's stuff right there as a reference. That's still an awfully direct level of copying.
"None of Minish Cap's, or any assets from other games, have been used at all in the making of Midora's tiles, sprites, or any of the other graphics."
And honestly, I believe them.
It's pretty clear, however, that they took inspiration from Minish Cap's tileset right down to the placement of individual branches. I assume their stuff was drawn with Minish Cap's stuff right there as a reference. That's still an awfully direct level of copying.
If you are gonna do some desperate reaching at least do it properly:Dark Souls is a great.... wait a minute.
Is that...
THIS REPRESENTS THE ENTIRE GAME THIS IS GARBAGE
There is nothing desperate or reaching about my claims. These, among many other well known examples are just that. Well known... and accepted. Influence is just that - influence. These people were obviously inspired by zelda/ nintendo games yet people are shocked by seeing -sometimes egregious- similarities.
My point in defending them is that you can't judge an entire game/team based on a few stray assets. If you don't want to support it - fine. I'm not - it actually doesn't interest me. But if you're going to spit vitriol know that you do it as a hypocrite. Without even knowing the team or the final product you are judging them based on assets that could be replaced within the day.
It's the equivalent of looking at this screenshot of New Vegas and accusing Obsidian of stealing their game from Zybourne Clock.
http://i.imgur.com/MuqnrTN.jpg
And people wonder why developers don't like early show floor or footage leaked.
(why is gaf so slow......)
COOL! IM IMPRESSED BY YOUR KNOWLEDGE OUTSDIDE THE REALM OF MY ANIMES! DID THE UNDEAD ALSO RISE AND USE THEIR TORTURE DEVICE AS A MEANS OF LOCOMOTION? THAT WOULD BE WIERD.
Pssst - it's not some random manga. It's a cited source of inspiration from the developers themselves. A tradition that has carried on in all 3 souls games.
My point in defending them is that you can't judge an entire game/team based on a few stray assets. If you don't want to support it - fine. I'm not - it actually doesn't interest me. But if you're going to spit vitriol know that you do it as a hypocrite. Without even knowing the team or the final product you are judging them based on assets that could be replaced within the day.
It's the equivalent of looking at this screenshot of New Vegas and accusing Obsidian of stealing their game from Zybourne Clock.
http://i.imgur.com/MuqnrTN.jpg
And people wonder why developers don't like early show floor or footage leaked.
(why is gaf so slow......)
COOL! IM IMPRESSED BY YOUR KNOWLEDGE OUTSDIDE THE REALM OF MY ANIMES! DID THE UNDEAD ALSO RISE AND USE THEIR TORTURE DEVICE AS A MEANS OF LOCOMOTION? THAT WOULD BE WIERD.
Pssst - it's not some random manga. It's a cited source of inspiration from the developers themselves. A tradition that has carried on in all 3 souls games.
Too derivative. I have a thing against "heavily inspired" indie games already with the attempts to just be similar to already existing, popular games of the past, but this? No way.
This whole thing sheds a light on the bad side of indies. For all the great, original and new games being made, there is this pool of uninspired clones, some of them more blatant than others.
This whole thing sheds a light on the bad side of indies. For all the great, original and new games being made, there is this pool of uninspired clones, some of them more blatant than others.
I don't feel comfortable financially supporting a Kickstarter project that hasn't shown a shred of originality as regards to its design. The sprite work, even down to the little enemy death explosions, is so close to Zelda that I find it hard to believe this project didn't start out as a fan-game, or that the pixel artist didn't have a Minish Cap spritesheet open in a different tab.
Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but for a Kickstarter project I would like to see a higher degree of ambition, creativity and accomplishment. Not something that I can find a random fansite or RPG/GameMaker forum.
Best of luck to the team.
Storm Kyleis
Member
I'm... not sure how to feel about this. Even the character's artwork looks like Minish Cap.
Also, the gameplay still feels a bit unpolished.
The artists are talented, they consciously chose to make it look like Minish Cap. Maybe they went too far with the inspiration.
Also, the gameplay still feels a bit unpolished.
outunderthestars
Banned
Well stated. I personally have no issue with a lack of visual creativity as I love that art style and am happy to play another game in it, but I can totally understand why it would rub other people the wrong way.
AuthenticM
Member
Backed
I'm fine with that explanation... I just wish certain people would be a little more reasonable about a game being billed as a love letter to Zelda. There are issues - yes indeed - and I hope they are addressed.. .but these are minor things that again, can be rectified within the day given the content in question. If a zelda inspired game is what you want... this doesn't look like the worst place to start.
I just wish people would be more understanding about influence - especially when it's so common place. There would be no Hokuto No ken or Fallout without Mad Max. Kojima literally stole from western media for decades to infinite praise. Anime Bladerunner and Lethal Weapon in space! Shadow Complex is literally a Metroid game through and through and is arguably the best one and people were fine with it. As for kickstarter projects Ghost Song, another literal metroid clone, was met with absolute praise regardless of the parity between side by side comparison of assets. Then you have kickstarters like Barkley 2... getting $120k. A game who's first iteration had so many stolen assets there may very well not be a single instance in the game where a stolen asset is not present. And yet this had no bearing on people's enjoyment of the project in the slightest (Semper Games).
You dont want to support the kickstarter - fine! Just don't judge the game or the development team just yet. Not on a sketch and a few sprites. It's not even remotely fair.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Well, I agree that the reaction in this thread has been really unfair. But you can't compare Midora and Ghost Song in these terms: Ghost Song is heavily inspired by Metroid, even the main character looks like Samus; yet the art style is something completly different. There's no Metroid game whose tiles and sprites look like the ones in Ghost Song.
On the other side, Midora's assets really look like Minish Cap's with a slightly bigger resolution.
I've been doing pixel art for more than 12 years and I can easily tell why is this happening:
a) The artist grabbed the very same color pallete from Minish Cap to make Midora's assets; and
b) he replicated the way that Minish Cap's art style deals with certain elements that appear a lot on screen (cliff corners, water, grass, bushes, trees).
Needless to say, the art in Midora looks great, and personally I don't have a problem with it looking that much like Minish Cap. I even dare to say it has an easy solution: make a different tree, change some colours in the pallete, different looking bushes & cliffs, and done.
However I understand why people with little/no experience in pixel art can think this is a rip-off. Even if it may not be true in this case, replicating the art style of other game is often a hint of a lazy and uninspired general game design.
But yes, people really need to stop being that alarmist. You only need to see the animated sprites to realize that there's a lot of work behind this project.
Best of luck to the devs in this second try.
Uncle Rupee
Banned
And really, if you're copying / tracing tilesets, I don't have any faith they can do anything original / worthwhile in the game play department.
A Zelda fan game has more Originality in Graphics department:
http://zfgc.com/forum/index.php?topic=40872.0
And when a Zelda fan game seems to better in map design and everything else:
https://www.facebook.com/echoesofaureliaofficial
Yeah Im not backing.
http://zfgc.com/forum/index.php?topic=40872.0
And when a Zelda fan game seems to better in map design and everything else:
https://www.facebook.com/echoesofaureliaofficial
Yeah Im not backing.
thechristoph
Sir!
Awww, people are so mean to the developers in this thread.
Wait hold on.
Is that...?
Is that a...?
Fuck it.
Is that a.....?
Fuck Spelunky.
Black Door
Banned
Making original characters from scratch based off another property is not the same thing as taking the art, photoshopping their hair blue and erasing half an inch off their legs and claiming ORIGINAL CHARACTER DO NOT STEAL
thechristoph
Sir!
More people need to read this post before they jump on the internet dogpile.
I'm fine with all the Zelda influenced art, but goddamn, please read the rewards they're handing out.
For $100 you can design your own NPC. For $150 you can design your own quest or ITEM. Oh, and it's not just 2 or 3 of these. They're letting the backers design up to 100 NPCs, and 15 quests and items. Do these guys have any shred of dignity? Do they have any love for their game? What this tells me is that they came together and thought "Oh hey, you know what'd be really cool? A game like Zelda!". But that's it. They've put no thought into the game's design.
Another concern is that the story sounds bland, but I suppose their description is so generic that it can be fashioned into an interesting tale. Not that I believe the studio can do it.
For $100 you can design your own NPC. For $150 you can design your own quest or ITEM. Oh, and it's not just 2 or 3 of these. They're letting the backers design up to 100 NPCs, and 15 quests and items. Do these guys have any shred of dignity? Do they have any love for their game? What this tells me is that they came together and thought "Oh hey, you know what'd be really cool? A game like Zelda!". But that's it. They've put no thought into the game's design.
Another concern is that the story sounds bland, but I suppose their description is so generic that it can be fashioned into an interesting tale. Not that I believe the studio can do it.
Geez, you can even match individual branches.
Completely shameless. This is indefensible. Stop letting indie developers get away with this kind of lazy ass BS. You are not fostering creativity by paying them to trace over Nintendo graphics.
But they even stole the animation from Minish Cap. That fishing guy, the way she swings her sword, throws her boomerang, that's all straight out of the game.
This seems like a very messy project, without any clear goals. That post above about the Kickstarter rewards and the way they handle the Minish Cap business just make it obvious that they're inexperienced and kinda naive. For the people hoping this will end up on Wii U: that will never, ever happen. Or Xbox or PS4 for that matter. No way they're going to burn their hands on this.
This would be fine for a free fan game. If you're asking money for something like this, that's just kinda scummy. I've already posted about this before, so I won't go on about it, but if they even make their goal I don't think it'd be reasonable to expect this game to be available for sale anywhere, outside of perhaps the Appstore or their own website.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
It's a shame since the artist would've spent an incredibly long time doing this, but it just lacks complete originality.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
wut, why is the Wii U the highest one =/
To me it looks like they realised like they might not make and possibly started adding extra platforms as bait; a mean to pass the 60,000 mark.
outunderthestars
Banned
And every time you post in here to remind us that you don't want the game it bumps the thread, leading to more donations.
You might threadshit this game into existence.
Dr Stabbingworth
Member
GrotesqueBeauty
Banned
Eh, some of the sprite work is shamelessly close, but overall this is the sort of game I want to play. Hopefully they'll absorb the criticism and use it as motivation to overhaul some of the more blatantly "inspired" elements, because the more original stuff looks great.
I don't think I'll be backing however. That Wii U tier is absurdly high, and for being so directly influenced by Zelda it's kinda shitty that they've created such a high barrier to entry for any Nintendo system. I doubt I'm the only one who feels this way. Sorry to the dev team, but -1 support. Shame too, because I could always use another decent action/adventure game in the Zelda tradition.
I don't think I'll be backing however. That Wii U tier is absurdly high, and for being so directly influenced by Zelda it's kinda shitty that they've created such a high barrier to entry for any Nintendo system. I doubt I'm the only one who feels this way. Sorry to the dev team, but -1 support. Shame too, because I could always use another decent action/adventure game in the Zelda tradition.
outunderthestars
Banned
Does seem like they missed out on a good chance for some goodwill by making the WiiU stretch goal lower.
Borderline plagiarism. Very nice animations though. They're really smooth. The pixel artist is very good and I wonder if they were told to simply copy Minish Cap's art style or..?
"Snow, our hero, can manipulate water at will."
Why do people name characters after weather like Nomura? Please don't. Just don't. There's a reason many people hate Nomura's designs.
This game reminds me of the Soul Saga kickstarter and how the creator stole Marche's design for Mithos, yet people were gullible enough in to thinking that it would be like a "Playstation classic Final Fantasy".
"Snow, our hero, can manipulate water at will."
Why do people name characters after weather like Nomura? Please don't. Just don't. There's a reason many people hate Nomura's designs.
This game reminds me of the Soul Saga kickstarter and how the creator stole Marche's design for Mithos, yet people were gullible enough in to thinking that it would be like a "Playstation classic Final Fantasy".
- Status