KZObsessed
Member
Wollan said:
For the single player yep.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Killzone 2 Public Beta email recieved
- Thread starter Dibbz
- Start date
For the single player yep.
I still can't get over the quality of the presentation here. I mean, I expected to look good, but I also expected stuff like Gears 2 to have the edge. This really demonstrates more what can be ton with a huge budget and a lot of effort than anything else. The sound, animation, effects, and art direction are all among the most impressive I've ever seen. I can't believe how incredible the ambient background noise is and how distinctive and powerful the sound of every weapon are.
The animation of the weapons used by the player are perhaps the most impressive I've see to date (even more so than Crysis). The motion blur is just perfect and the camera work creates the kind of motion you'd expect only in a cutscene.
I'm also surprised that they have full lighting and shadows in effect. It seems that the environment casts proper shadows on itself as well as all objects (including the player) around it. The shadows appear completely clean as well. Gears 2 doesn't even OFFER environmental shadows at all nor high quality motion blur, both of which are highly demanding techniques. I don't know how they do it.
I just hope the set pieces are huge and impressive. This is just multiplayer, but where Gears 2 really impresses is the size and quality of its massive set pieces. If KZ2 can deliver something remotely on par with that, I will be quite impressed.
I really wish I could get into this beta, but it seems impossible/too late at this point. I must experience this on my own display for proper analysis.
The animation of the weapons used by the player are perhaps the most impressive I've see to date (even more so than Crysis). The motion blur is just perfect and the camera work creates the kind of motion you'd expect only in a cutscene.
I'm also surprised that they have full lighting and shadows in effect. It seems that the environment casts proper shadows on itself as well as all objects (including the player) around it. The shadows appear completely clean as well. Gears 2 doesn't even OFFER environmental shadows at all nor high quality motion blur, both of which are highly demanding techniques. I don't know how they do it.
I just hope the set pieces are huge and impressive. This is just multiplayer, but where Gears 2 really impresses is the size and quality of its massive set pieces. If KZ2 can deliver something remotely on par with that, I will be quite impressed.
I really wish I could get into this beta, but it seems impossible/too late at this point. I must experience this on my own display for proper analysis.
I was reading this over at Killzone.com and wondered if we have seen this map (Salamun Market) in any video's? If anyone has a link to a vid or maybe a pic, I'd love to see it.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Before we begin, would you like a sandwich? Everybody love sandwiches! Go make yourself a tasty treat, I will wait for you. Don't forget the pickles.
Good! Now that you are back and enjoying a fine, moistly and, dare I say, heavenly sandwich, lets get down to business: Multiplayer Level Design. For this particular example I will use one of the multiplayer maps from Killzone 2, named Salamun Market.
The road to a (hopefully) successful level is a long but fun one. To keep things in order, I will present our process to you using the different Guerrilla Games steps, dividing them into multiple blog entries.
Part 1: High Level Design
The Brainstorm
Ah, the almighty creative stage. Here you lay the ground work for what is to come. When designing a new multiplayer level, there are a few general rules that I like to follow.
Connectivity: One important aspect of a good multiplayer map is to give players plenty of options. Never, EVER have a room with only one exit (unless its very specific to a game type or gameplay element). Add windows that give overviews on important strategic areas. Make it possible for players to jump from roof to roof. Basically, always give them multiple possibilities on where to go next.
Line of Sight: Here you need a careful balance. Make sure that players have enough visibility to navigate their surroundings, but provide them with ample cover so they have a safe place to hide while reloading. Then, plan specific locations where snipers can get a nice vantage point over important areas. Mix and match those two principles and you should have something fairly interesting.
Keep it fun and simple: This one might be more of a personal opinion, but I always find that simpler level design works better. If you make your level too complicated, people will get lost and wont find enemies to shoot at. Players need to be able to grasp the layout rather quickly (after only a few games, they should easily navigate the map). A lost player is not a happy player.
The First Playable
Once I have a better idea of what I would like to create, its time to get down and dirty with some 3D magic. The goal here is to quickly have something playable in the game engine to judge distances, line of sight and gameplay potential. Here at Guerrilla Games we use Autodesk Maya, but there are plenty of free tools you can use at home like the Unreal Engine, CryENGINE2 Level Editor or even Google SketchUp.
Keep it simple and dont overdo it with unnecessary details, since you need to be able to quickly change the layout.
Salamun Market was the first map I created for Killzone 2s online multiplayer mode, and I wanted something fairly standard that we could test the engine with. The basic idea was to have the main road and the center building as the focus of the map, and I think it was carried over successfully from concept to the end product.
Then, when you feel confident with what you have, its time to share it with your peers. Getting feedback from people in different fields (like Visual Design, Art, Code, etc ) is one of the most crucial parts in game design, and should be part of every step until your baby is out in the world being judged by the people.
Let me say that again, because I cannot stress it enough: getting people to play your map and give constructive feedback is probably THE most critical part of the whole process.
I hope you enjoyed my little sharing and, of course, your delicious sandwich. On our next episode, we will explore the entertaining step of Low Level Design, which is like High Level Design, but sexier.
Until next time, Ill miss you.
/quit
Simon Larouche
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
I could have swore I read a interview with one of the programmers on KZ2 and he was saying
that they really are just now understanding how to use the Cell Processors effectively and that
the cell he believes has the power to do realtime Raytracing which though they didn't have the
time to add to the KZ2 engine they were going to for their next game.
that they really are just now understanding how to use the Cell Processors effectively and that
the cell he believes has the power to do realtime Raytracing which though they didn't have the
time to add to the KZ2 engine they were going to for their next game.
It was in a Powerpoint from 1 of their presentation.BruceLeeRoy said:
The design is top notch....multi-layered and seems to be thought out very well. There's tons of different paths to get to the same place. There's rofttops where snipers and snipe but it's not like its safe to camp up there. Even as a sniper, you dont want to camp 1 place for too long because somebody will shoot you in the back.Firewire said:
They are using a different lighting model on characters, but it's not related to environment shadows (which are not present). They demonstrated some sort of ambient occlusion model, if I recall, but it doesn't really seem to offer many benefits in the game as the lighting on the characters doesn't appear improved over the original game (and, in fact, tends to look somewhat more flat overall). Tim Sweeney did note in an interview that they would be using more dynamic shadows, but I certainly haven't seen anything like that. The models all cast proper shadows on one another, but none of the static environment geometry does (which was the case with the original).KTallguy said:
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
mr_nothin said:
Ahh yeah thats right.
Thanks man.
Tom Penny said:
R1 came out November 2006, R2 came out November 2008, that's a full 2 years of production time they had, time that can be spent on 1) SERIOUSLY updating their graphics engine and 2) art direction/story/tech art/gameplay scenarios, instead of revamping things that were working extremely well and then trying to tune it in the last two to three months, now I have no idea when they actually started full production on R2 but had their Resistance team actually spent two years on making R2 I fully expect them to crank out a AAA title, how Insomniac games managed their time and resources between projects, that's another matter. I guess that's the advantage of having a studio concentrating on a franchise like Guerilla with Killzone, Evolution with Motorstorm, Media Molecule with LBP and Naughty Dog with UNCHARTED!!!111!!!
February is like next week.dark10x said:I really wish I could get into this beta, but it seems impossible/too late at this point. I must experience this on my own display for proper analysis.
Christmas is just around the corner.
In January we pick up the pieces.
Killzone 2 am here.
dark10x said:
There are occasionally things like wooden signs that cast proper shadows but for the most it's this really weird blob thing that surrounds an object and you can zoom in to see it and it kind of fades in and fades out, still it's better than NO PROPER FUCKING SHADOWS in the environments in R2 (other than a few chairs), the MP shadowing looks really good in Killzone 2, it has a much more unified feel to it.
Honestly, based on all of the work Insomniac has done, I believe they are simply running into limitations with how they approach visuals. They don't seem to "get" a lot of the concepts behind modern lighting and texturing you see in the best looking games.
Hmm.
I really liked how MGO online looked, with the quality of the character models, but there's zero terrain deformation, which is a shame.
I haven't been on MGO in too long... damn.
Killzone looks amazing though, I mean, the gun models are same or better quality as MGS4, but the real amazing part is the atmospheric effects. MGS4 had a lot of these, but they weren't nearly the same quality.
I am just praying to god that the actual SP campaign is amazing, like better than CoD4, just to show people. It's going to need to be that good to make people stand up and notice.
I really liked how MGO online looked, with the quality of the character models, but there's zero terrain deformation, which is a shame.
I haven't been on MGO in too long... damn.
Killzone looks amazing though, I mean, the gun models are same or better quality as MGS4, but the real amazing part is the atmospheric effects. MGS4 had a lot of these, but they weren't nearly the same quality.
I am just praying to god that the actual SP campaign is amazing, like better than CoD4, just to show people. It's going to need to be that good to make people stand up and notice.
Firewire said:
The part where they say "getting people to play your map and give constructive feedback" makes me happy, and I'm glad they started the beta-testing so early so they can iron out the balancing issue, general controls issue and the basic feel of the game, so when the game comes out people can just enjoy the game instead of getting frustrated by everything from simply getting online and basic weapon balancing. The fewer patches required, the better. It's great they understand that, it's an indication that Guerilla at least understands the need to manage their time well, something that Slant Six did NOT do with SOCOM and something that Insomniac did NOT do with Resistance 2.
Kittonwy said:R1 came out November 2006, R2 came out November 2008, that's a full 2 years of production time they had, time that can be spent on 1) SERIOUSLY updating their graphics engine and 2) art direction/story/tech art/gameplay scenarios, instead of revamping things that were working extremely well and then trying to tune it in the last two to three months, now I have no idea when they actually started full production on R2 but had their Resistance team actually spent two years on making R2 I fully expect them to crank out a AAA title, how Insomniac games managed their time and resources between projects, that's another matter. I guess that's the advantage of having a studio concentrating on a franchise like Guerilla with Killzone, Evolution with Motorstorm, Media Molecule with LBP and Naughty Dog with UNCHARTED!!!111!!!
You forgot about RNC so only one year, of course it probably overlaps somewhat
Jett said:
Oh for fucks sake, I haven't been able to finish a single match in like three days. The only thing I'm gonna be seeing for the rest of the beta is the menu screen if they keep stuffing more people into it and not sort this issue out =( congrats to you two though..SolidSnakex said:
Fenderputty
Banned
Kittonwy said:
I'm fine with the gameplay. It's fun. The SP is fun and the MP is fun as well. It's just not as polished as I would have liked. Still ... they did do something with their time other than RFOM2 in the last 2 years. It's called "tools of destrcution" and "quest for booty". IG has been working hard.
Lovely Salsa
Banned
I just played Killzone and......holy fuck what a bad game! I feel raped in the ass and robbed at the same time
Live and learn I guess, I'll throw this junk away
Live and learn I guess, I'll throw this junk away
JudgeN said:
Kittonwy is right.
It has nothing to do with a budget or that CG video. They have passed that, the media have even said they have reached or come close to that video.
Its apparent that GG is listening to their fans. Evidence of this can be found in their forums, and from what I have heard from some in here, they are addressing concerns but forth by the beta testers. That shows a commitment to their game and franchise that has to be admired, its a shame Insomniac didn't take more advice from the private beta testers for R2, if they did I'm sure the game would be better for it.
Kittonwy said:R1 came out November 2006, R2 came out November 2008, that's a full 2 years of production time they had, time that can be spent on 1) SERIOUSLY updating their graphics engine and 2) art direction/story/tech art/gameplay scenarios, instead of revamping things that were working extremely well and then trying to tune it in the last two to three months, now I have no idea when they actually started full production on R2 but had their Resistance team actually spent two years on making R2 I fully expect them to crank out a AAA title, how Insomniac games managed their time and resources between projects, that's another matter. I guess that's the advantage of having a studio concentrating on a franchise like Guerilla with Killzone, Evolution with Motorstorm, Media Molecule with LBP and Naughty Dog with UNCHARTED!!!111!!!
It comes down to making money. Maybe there business model is trying to make as many good games as possible in X amount of time vs spending an extra 6 months or year to make a specatuclar game. In the end they are trying to maximize profits and why put Evolution in the conversation like they did anything special with Motorstorm 2.
Fenderputty
Banned
Firewire said:
2005-2009 is 4 years. 2006-2008 is two years plus R&C tool and booty. They made a lot of changes. I happen to like some of them. The game just looks like it needs some polish.
Look ... KZ2 does matter to Sony. The E3 05 showing, the Halo killer crap. It's HAS to play out well for them. That's why the game looks the way it does. GG has been given time and money to get it the way it needs to be. Team ICO's game will be the same. IG has pushed out three games, all good mind you, before GG has come out with one.
R2 is a good game. It's fun as hell and the co-op is rockin'. People need to lay off the game in this thread. KZ2 will set a new bar, but that doesn't mean a game (which comes out before) needs to meet that bar to be considered good.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
It's true that they didn't add too much, but they had one of the most feature complete engines to begin with, so there wasn't much left to put in visually. MS1 already had global physics, global dynamic light and shadowing with HDR and MSAA, as well as object motion based motion blur. His point was that probably even today R2 doesn't have pretty much any of that.Tom Penny said:
Tom Penny said:
Well Evolution is responsible for the highest selling game on the PS3 so far. The thing is they listened to the complaints people had about the first game and addressed them and then went a step further in refining things. M2 is a vast improvement over M1, I'm not sure many Insomniac fans would say the same in regards to R1 to R2.
I don't think you can base your opinion of the sequel on the original, however. A lot has changed since then. Killzone was heavily limited by the hardware (running at a barely playable framerate) and lack of experience by the developers. Their first and only PSP game, however, was a fantastic release (Killzone Liberation) and, based on the impressions of KZ2, it should also be fantastic.Lovely Salsa said: