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[AndyD]

I was wondering how it would differentiate your lower body from the couch. It would have to be able to handle full and partial skeletal recognition with thousands of permutations and variables. Complex stuff.

The 3D camera should be able to distinguish you from the couch.

And they showed videos with people sitting down. And said they are using some tens of thousands of positions to detemine your stance.

 

[soco]

this shouldn't really come as a surprise.

detecting the human skeleton, even with z data, is pretty difficult to do effectively, and i'm guessing the navigation while sitting is secondary to what they're trying to do. it's probably at the very end of things they'll work out as it's not really important to what they're trying to do.

 

[soco]

The 3D camera should be able to distinguish you from the couch.

it really depends upon the type of couch and how you're on it. it's gonna have all sorts of problems if you're laying down making out with someone.

 

[derFeef]

It is a depth camera for a reason. I could understand why it would be a problem to distinguish you from furniture with a plain 2d cam, but like I said, it´s a depth cam. MS needs to get on their feet and fix this or I am not going to buy this thing. This is crucial.

 

[Fidelis Hodie]

would be hilarious if true, but it doesn't make any sense, the only difference sitting vs. standing is the height of your hands while playing, in which case how tall the player is would have to matter as well but it obviously does not, since it was demo'd with short little kids and regular sized adults.

But watching the fitness video and how it recognized the outline of the black woman, maybe the kinect can't tell you're sitting on the couch? Like, your body literally blends in with it, so it just thinks there's a large rectangular object.

edit:

It is a depth camera for a reason. I could understand why it would be a problem to distinguish you from furniture with a plain 2d cam, but like I said, it´s a depth cam. MS needs to get on their feet and fix this or I am not going to buy this thing. This is crucial.

Pretty much. Though I wasn't going to buy it anyways. I've got enough waggle and wiggle in my life.

 

[genjiZERO]

I agree with this.
it would be a waste, to make this controller option and have people sit down, would massivly defeat the object of what they had in mind with this.

But it also severly limits what you can do with it.

I'd really expect MS to have this worked out. If thy don't, then fuck 'em I say - they'd deserve all the criticism I'm sure they'd get.

 

[fernoca]

Oh yeah, that's right. Completely forgot about that one for some reason.

And even that was demoed standing up (and kneeling)...
And apparently, all you can do in the demo/racing aspects is steer; speed is automatic..so wasn't even similar to last year's demo of Burnout were you pressed your foot to simulate accelerating....but that's coming next year, so there's time..

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

If all the individual damning claims are true, Microsoft has fucked up worse than even SEGA could acheive.

Heads should roll as the failure of Kinect would eventually cost them hundreds of millions.

 

[NYR]

And they showed videos with people sitting down. And said they are using some tens of thousands of positions to detemine your stance.

Wrong. They showed pre-produced publicity videos. In all liklihood, the actors is those videos weren't even using it, it was likely staged acting and the Kinect stuff was a video or added after the fact. Case in point - the Forza demo has already been proven to be staged during the show, he wasn't actually controlling it.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Uh, Forza?

What they need to do is show someone playing Forza sitting down in chair like you would at home.
What they show was a control environment with no furniture or nothing else in the back ground.

 

[jgwhiteus]

I can see it depending on the type of chair. Sitting in a small dining room chair roughly the same width as your body? Shouldn't be a problem, because your body is "blocking" the object - the camera only sees your body. (Maybe this is why there wasn't a problem in the promo video, with the dad fast forwarding the movie while sitting in a low-back chair?) Sitting back in a wide couch (especially a couch roughly the same color as your clothes?) Can see big recognition problems.

So Greenberg is probably correct that it "depends". It probably isn't true that Kinect can't recognize you sitting no matter what - if you were sitting / standing in the middle of the floor, with no furniture, it should have no problem, or if you're sitting in a small chair, there shouldn't be a problem. But it probably is true that in its current state there might be recognition issues when sitting in large furniture or similar. Unfortunately, large furniture is what most people have in their living rooms.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

I don't think it's unreasonable to have to prompt the system with a simple voice command, like "XBOX, menu" to 'wake' the system in order to acquire your following gesture, like to differentiate any movement from one meant to navigate a menu. Even in the case the system cannot detect your full skeleton because you're partially out of the detected trackable volume of space in front of the camera, it should still be possible to act from determining your head from another point while singling out an outreached arm and hand for navigation or arms/hands-only tracking and input. Again, if this is an issue, this is something they'll have to work in the Kinect and game software before launch and probably tweak post-release. As well, the system should be able to capture the play volume and all of its points, such as sofas, chairs, etc., in front and determine and store information about that space if unchanged while adapting for what does. If it's not possible, MS didn't do their homework well enough for their intended applications.

 

[jufonuk]

But it also severly limits what you can do with it.

I'd really expect MS to have this worked out. If thy don't, then fuck 'em I say - they'd deserve all the criticism I'm sure they'd get.

I am tired long day at work( so my arguments are a bit unarticulate), but I mean for general game playing i think they want a"get up off your ass" "kinetic" < -- yeah i went there awoo. kind of game play, racing games and menu navigations etc should work from either posistion, but it is true if they can't get it working at a seated posture then, they should hold off on releasing it.. also for any wheelchair bound players.or those with limited lower body mobility they will not be able to join in. which is not a good thing.

EDIT: this is not a derail but in the 3ds Forum a poster has only vision in one eye. (cannot remeber who) the 3DS has an option to turn the effect off so they can still play the 3ds, surely MS would have thought about this for any gamers who lack mobility etc.

 

[Zizbuka]

MS are such trendsetters..............

rumor has it Ford is working on a car you HAVE to drive standing up. :lol

 

[NYR]

Kneeling does not equal sitting.

If it did, kneeling would be called sitting. It's not.

themoreyouknow.jpeg

 

[flyinpiranha]

There are many ways to read his statement. What his statement doesn't say is "No, Kinect works perfectly fine while seated."

Because, you know ... it might vary with different software and experience.

 

[The Technomancer]

Reposting my comment from the failed thread:

I hadn't seen any of the vids showing Kinect being used in any fashion while sitting.

Seriously.
Imagine watching a movie.
Kinect sees something move.

Are you:

Reaching for your drink
Stretching
Getting up to take a shit
Pointing your remote at the receiver to adjust the volume

Kinect has no way of knowing. Kinect trying to do something and getting it wrong would be more infuriating than Kinect demanding you speak to it ("XBAWKS, PWN NOOBS") or stand up front and center.

I guess what I'm saying is that this shouldn't have been news to anyone, but the fact that it is is hilarious.

This was exactly my first thought when I saw the movie controls. I wave to my brother as he enters the room, and now suddenly my movie is back 7 minutes.

 

[Ducarmel]

An MS rep should come out and say we are tying to get people to lose weight while gaming, obesity is a huge problem in America and we at MSOFT have a solution.

Anyway -1 for me. Maybe if they release some calibrating software that can auto/manually map out your couch/bed, and map the human body siting on a couch might solve the problem.

 

[venne]

I suppose that it could be faked, but the thing head tracked the sister when they did the video chat session (around 4:00 mark) while she sat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orK2K1RAcYo

 

[Speevy]

There's nothing wrong with stand-up gaming. You did it at the arcades afterall.

It's just not very relaxing to me.

 

[spwolf]

it is obviously some sort of bug, still funny though...

 

[Jibber Hack]

The OP needs to be updated as the story has been updated:

Standing Room Only
According to Microsoft, you can play some Kinect games sitting down. It "varies" by experience. However, several developers giving us demos have said the exact opposite. Sometimes the contradiction comes from the same person--one day telling us you have to be standing and then the next saying everything can be done while sitting.

Which is true? We don't know for certain, as we have not had the opportunity to play anything seated. Suffice to say, if you have to stand for every game (or for menu navigation), that's a big problem. This remains a concern until we ourselves can test out Kinect from our rear.

They take into account what MS has said, but some developers on the show floor (giving the demos) are giving conflicting reports.

 

[flyinpiranha]

This was exactly my first thought when I saw the movie controls. I wave to my brother as he enters the room, and now suddenly my movie is back 7 minutes.

I'm pretty sure it's just conjecture and you're making an example ... but do you honestly wave to people that enter your home? If anything it'd throw off my head tracking in Forza 3 or something when I give a "sup?" nod or something.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

Because, you know ... it might vary with different software and experience.

If you can tell me with any certainty what that means in practical terms you win E3.

 

[duckroll]

The OP needs to be updated as the story has been updated:



They take into account what MS has said, but some developers on the show floor (giving the demos) are giving conflicting reports.

Updating.

 

[TheGreatDave]

If you can tell me with any certainty what that means in practical terms you win E3.

The voice recognition experience where you talk to your Xbox like a dog to pause a video works fine when seated.

 

[GitarooMan]

Isn't the point of Kinect is to stand up?

Not if I'm using it to drive like in JoyRide.

 

[Beardz]

And they showed videos with people sitting down.

They could have done a live presentation with a "family" sitting on coach on stage; but no, they guy who made the presentation was standing near the camera.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

The voice recognition experience where you talk to your Xbox like a dog to pause a video works fine when seated.

You win E3.

 

[Kinitari]

Because, you know ... it might vary with different software and experience.

It's sort of obvious what the issue is - plenty of developers and journalists have brought it up. Apparently the camera has problems when you're sitting down, if this is a false allegation he should know better than to say what boils down to "it depends" - he should say "The camera has no problem distinguishing you sitting down, any problems with this is developer side". Done like dinner. But if there are actually problems with Kinect detecting you while you sit "Of course it works, depending on what you are doing" is the perfect response.

Not saying I am 100% sure this is the situation, but from the reports coming in, it seems pretty damning.

 

[flyinpiranha]

If you can tell me with any certainty what that means in practical terms you win E3.

Certain games might not work well when seated ... if at all. Others might. It's not really hard to distinguish the "mileage may vary, it's dependent on software" vibe from his statement.

And I could never win E3 this year, Konami is clearly the winner.

 

[lowlylowlycook]

The reason that I can imagine that there is something to this is that otherwise I have a hard time understanding why they haven't shown anything really designed to sell Kinect to their existing install base. Say a game that used a controller and Kinnect at the same time.

I know that MS wants to push "controller free gaming but I'd guess that 40 million install base would override any marketing concerns.

I don't doubt that it can work while sitting down under certain circumstances but I can see how laying back in a chair or sofa could make it much less reliable.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Surely it won't release like this...right?

 

[Speevy]

maybe if you turn the camera vertically it'll let you lie down.

 

[Zophar]

Microsoft has no pedigree for engineering and creating hardware, I'm surprised so many people forgot this. Their strength has always been software development; remember, MS's Games Division are the same people that built the Xbox out of pre-existing, off the shelf components and brought us the 360's infamous RRoD.

To me the whole thing comes Kinect ordeal feels a lot like MS became determined to have controller-free gaming, which is a half-baked idea to begin with, and have been working backwards from there ever since. Obviously the technology exists to a degree to realize that idea but I don't think they thought it through very well or ever questioned if it was a worthwhile endeavor. By comparison the motion solutions Nintendo and Sony have provided seem so rational and tempered.

 

[flyinpiranha]

The reason that I can imagine that there is something to this is that otherwise I have a hard time understanding why they haven't shown anything really designed to sell Kinect to their existing install base. Say a game that used a controller and Kinnect at the same time.

I know that MS wants to push "controller free gaming but I'd guess that 40 million install base would override any marketing concerns.

I don't doubt that it can work while sitting down under certain circumstances but I can see how laying back in a chair or sofa could make it much less reliable.

I'm not really sure to be honest. It seems they already have us, we buy their games, we buy their systems. They won't make the big money off the peripheral, it's off the software ... and most of the 360 'core' wouldn't buy anything that has been showed or where they want to take this thing. For the most part most of the 'core' was just waiting for some cool niche thing for it to do so we could go "neat" then it would collect dust.

We aren't their demographic, and that's what is pissing people off so much.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Both Nintendo AND Sony passed on this tech. let that marinate for a bit.

Another question; which game if any was shown that supports up to 4 players?
Because a point I see constantly is the "for Wii you need 4 remotes and that costs over $100 on top of the cost of the Wii; to have the same multiplayer experience.."....

Yet all the demos show were 2 players only....any update?

My guess? 4 people standing end to end takes up a LOT of space. I doubt Kinect could even see that far, much less process the individual movements of 4 people.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

Certain games might not work well when seated ... if at all. Others might. It's not really hard to distinguish the "mileage may vary, it's dependent on software" vibe from his statement.

You need to learn to speak the language of PR. If Microsoft could debunk this rumor they would do so in clear terms. The vaguer the statement, the more worried you should be, and that statement is as vague as it gets.

 

[valkillmore]

Microsoft has no pedigree for engineering and creating hardware, I'm surprised so many people forgot this. Their strength has always been software development; remember, MS's Games Division are the same people that built the Xbox out of pre-existing, off the shelf components and brought us the 360's infamous RRoD.

I would say that this criticism is somewhat misguided. Kinect is arguably more an achievement in software development than hardware development. It's the software they created that communicates with the hardware that has the limitations this IGN claim suggests. It's not that the hardware, the cameras, isn't doing what it's supposed to do. It's doing exactly what it's supposed to do. It's whats happening to the data the cameras are feeding the software that's the issue. The software, not the hardware, is to blame.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

Stephen Toulouse from MS wrote on his twitter:

"Guys, we're still developing Kinect. I've no idea what ign wrote and am not contradicting. Just saying ive used menus sitting. Calm down. "

 

[Zophar]

I would say that this criticism is somewhat misguided. Kinect is arguably more an achievement in software development than hardware development. It's the software they created to enable the hardware that has the limitations this IGN claim suggests. It's not that the hardware, the cameras, isn't doing what it's supposed to do. It's doing exactly what it's supposed to do. It's whats happening to the data the cameras are feeding the software that's the issue. The software, not the hardware, is to blame.

That's a good point, thanks for reminding me. I had forgotten that they had to strip down all of the added horsepower Natal was supposed to bring to the table. I have to wonder if the functionality problems we're seeing is because they've had to make concessions around minimizing Kinect's footprint in the 360 hardware?

 

[Medalion]

Hooray for small miracles, we may be seated to do a menu...

 

[MMaRsu]

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

NEVER GONNA BUY THIS

 

[Speevy]

Stephen Toulouse from MS wrote on his twitter:

"Guys, we're still developing Kinect. I've no idea what ign wrote and am not contradicting. Just saying ive used menus sitting. Calm down. "

Well that's good to know. I'll bet he bakes a mean cookie too.

 

[seat]

This is posturism in it's purest, most vile form. I shall not stand for this!

 

[jax (old)]

CLUSTERF**K

:lol :lol

 

[flyinpiranha]

You need to learn to speak the language of PR. If Microsoft could debunk this rumor they would do so in clear terms. The vaguer the statement, the more worried you should be, and that statement is as vague as it gets.

I understand PR ... but I'm not worried. I was excited for the tech and where they might take it but it doesn't matter. They are taking it in a direction I don't need.

It is vague ... but are you saying that every vague PR statement is something to get worried about because I would have given up on GT5 and countless other games I'm excited for by now. The thing is still 1/2 a year away ... of course they are being vague.

 

[Jive Turkey]

maybe if you turn the camera vertically it'll let you lie down.

Kinect supports TATE mode confirmed!

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

Stephen Toulouse from MS wrote on his twitter:

"Guys, we're still developing Kinect. I've no idea what ign wrote and am not contradicting. Just saying ive used menus sitting. Calm down. "

I didn't think it was possible to say two opposite things at the same time but there you are.

 

[Flyguy]

Stephen Toulouse from MS wrote on his twitter:

"Guys, we're still developing Kinect. I've no idea what ign wrote and am not contradicting. Just saying ive used menus sitting. Calm down. "

Well, so long as everyone can use menus while seated this is much ado about nothing.