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Kinect priced at $150 in Microsoft's official online store

Redbeard said:
I love how people make the excuse for Kinect by saying "well, it's not meant for you or me..."

As if that statement justifies the decisions Microsoft has made with this peripheral and that because it's not for you then it ultimately doesn't matter for you as gamer.

The problem with this statement is that it certainly does matter for you as a gamer. Because of Kinect, Microsoft has shifted enormous amounts of their alloted gaming division budget towards the Kinect peripheral launch and game development. They've turned a $375 million studio from making core titles like Banjo, Perfect Dark, Kameo, and others to a studio that will now work exclusively on Kinect software. So if you cherished the titles that Rare once made, or had the capability of making, Kinect has essentially destroyed one of Microsoft's biggest core studios for you. They're no longer making games you want. It would be like Sony going to Naughty Dog and Sony Santa Monica studios and telling them to go make a bunch of software that rips off what already exists on the Wii. What Sony has done is outsourced a lot of the development that is Move exclusive, letting their core studios continue doing what they do best.

And I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with a studio shifting its development entirely in support of a peripheral exclusively....but only if that peripheral can be used to enhance the core experience. With Kinect, this is an impossibility.

I guess an argument could be made that if Kinect is successful and more profitable, Microsoft's return on that investment could funnel back into hardcore development, but I've seen nothing from Microsoft to suggest that this would be the case. They've been profitable for quite some time now (they stand to make 1 billion this year) and they're getting rid of studios. If anything, a successful Kinect will more likely be funneled back into the Kinect rather than hardcore title development.

As a core gamer that has no interest in what Kinect has to offer, you should rightfully be angry at the decisions that have been made for the next 5+ years of the Xbox 360.
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I don't think that this argument is necessarily wrong, but you can't really say with 100% certainty that any expense related to Kinect will take away from the "hardcore gamer" budget. Rare haven't really made any major, big selling hardcore titles for years anyway. From a "me" perspective, I wasn't bothered about Viva Pinata (not exactly "hardcore"), Banjo N&B and the Perfect Dark remake (which I bought, but have played about twice).

One thing that I do disagree with is that I should be "angry" at the decisions MS have made. Looking at the upcoming list of games coming out, I can already see more hardcore titles than I have time to play. I own all 3 consoles and the 360 gets 90% of my gaming time, the PS3 is used for exclusives only, and the Wii is used when family/friends come over or for the occasional game like Mario Galaxy 2 and I can't see that changing just because of Kinect. Even if it does, I certainly won't be angry about it.
 
OldJadedGamer said:
It's not just the Kinect but the focus on waggle in general. Look no farther than the Heavy Rain thread how the DLC is delayed indefinitely because they are trying to shoehorn Move controls into it.

Waggle sucks and there is no way around it. All three will be supporting it for a long time coming.
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Actually Waggle isn't that bad.
 
surly said:
I don't think that this argument is necessarily wrong, but you can't really say with 100% certainty that any expense related to Kinect will take away from the "hardcore gamer" budget. Rare haven't really made any major, big selling hardcore titles for years anyway. From a "me" perspective, I wasn't bothered about Viva Pinata (not exactly "hardcore"), Banjo N&B and the Perfect Dark remake (which I bought, but have played about twice).

One thing that I do disagree with is that I should be "angry" at the decisions MS have made. Looking at the upcoming list of games coming out, I can already see more hardcore titles than I have time to play. I own all 3 consoles and the 360 gets 90% of my gaming time, the PS3 is used for exclusives only, and the Wii is used when family/friends come over or for the occasional game like Mario Galaxy 2 and I can't see that changing just because of Kinect. Even if it does, I certainly won't be angry about it.
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I'd like to get some decent first party games other than Halo and Gears sequels once in a while.

I'm pretty mad, tbh. I'd like to see a new Perfect Dark not rushed for a launch window. I'd like to see more artsty / japanese titles. I'd like to see new IPs, I'd like to see rejuvenations of old IPs. Instead, we get Kinectimals, Kinect Sports, and Kinect Adventures.

Microsoft has the hardcore in their back pocket. All they need to do is release more Gears and more Halo. Just let third parties do the rest, right? Well, that's their thinking. The longer this generation goes on the less interest I have for the system or Microsoft's vision for gaming.
 
Rare have done nothing recently except pretty, shallow games (with the probable exception of Banjo N&B) that have largely been unsuccessful. They sound like a perfect fit for Kinect development.
 
chespace said:
I don't know if Move is going to bomb, but at this point, nobody gives a shit. Even Sony fans would rather talk about Kinect.
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I give a shit about the Move, I guess I don't count.

Great job at representing Turn 10, you're really coming across as a swell guy :/.
 
Surfheart said:
Rare have done nothing recently except pretty, shallow games (with the probable exception of Banjo N&B) that have largely been unsuccessful. They sound like a perfect fit for Kinect development.
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lol apparently you haven't played viva pinata. It's the most complicated children's game I've ever experienced.
 
Redbeard said:
I'd like to get some decent first party games other than Halo and Gears sequels once in a while.

I'm pretty mad, tbh. I'd like to see a new Perfect Dark not rushed for a launch window. I'd like to see more artsty / japanese titles. I'd like to see new IPs, I'd like to see rejuvenations of old IPs. Instead, we get Kinectimals, Kinect Sports, and Kinect Adventures.

Microsoft has the hardcore in their back pocket. All they need to do is release more Gears and more Halo. Just let third parties do the rest, right? Well, that's their thinking. The longer this generation goes on the less interest I have for the system or Microsoft's vision for gaming.
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I'm guessing they tried and it didn't work financially. Xbox had all those Sega games that flopped: Panzer Dragoon Orta, Jet Set Radio Future, Gun Valkyrie, etc. I don't know how well Blue Dragon and the other JRPGs they released did for the 360, but I will guess not well and considering the 360's popularity in Japan, I wouldn't hold my breath for more Japanese games.

As for new IPs, the three that you mentioned (Kinectimals, Kinect Sports, and Kinect Adventures) are all new. Gears was new IP this generation. Alan Wake is new IP. I mean, it's not like it isn't happening at all. Just because you don't like them, doesn't mean they aren't there.
 
venne said:
That's clever, but I don't see why you'd need a motion controller for it. Two analog sticks would work just as well to manipulate the light source.

Never got into echochrome, though. So it's a moot point for me.
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Well, its not meant for you. But echochrome was hard as hell because of 2 analog on DS3. Being able to have your vision manipulate and rotate with 2 analog was cumberson and hard.

This makes it alot more easy to manipulate. Instead of using two analog and try to figure things out on a go. You instead with move just juse like a real life light source.Plus having the light source outside the tv also makes it easy to see the and comprehend the shadows.
Again, something different and easy and innovative. Still few months to launch and I can imagine more stuff that way.
 
Thunderbear said:
I give a shit about the Move, I guess I don't count.

Great job at representing Turn 10, you're really coming across as a swell guy :/.
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On NeoGAF, I represent myself and my opinions on games are my own. I didn't think I'd need such an obvious disclaimer, but thisisgaf.gif I guess.

Anyway, my original point still stands. Lots of people talking about Kinect, whether it's the potential, speculating about its limits, or the price point. Truth is, folks are talking about Kinect and the word is spreading. This is how tech becomes common household knowledge.

Move just doesn't capture the imagination. We know how waggle works. And last I checked, core gamers like myself don't care for it. If you love it, awesome. But when I saw the Zelda demo at E3, my heart sank.
 
beast786 said:
Well, its not meant for you. But echochrome was hard as hell because of 2 analog on DS3. Being able to have your vision manipulate and rotate with 2 analog was cumberson and hard.

This makes it alot more easy to manipulate. Instead of using two analog and try to figure things out on a go. You instead with move just juse like a real life light source.Plus having the light source outside the tv also makes it easy to see the and comprehend the shadows.
Again, something different and easy and innovative. Still few months to launch and I can imagine more stuff that way.
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You think it would be difficult to comprehend the shadows without a controller?

I don't question the novelty of it. I simply question the necessity of it.

I think it makes for a better tech demo, but I don't know if it makes for a better game.
 
Ignis Fatuus said:
You're trying to propose that the "word" is good. I find it hard to credit that you actually believe that, but it is after all your job.
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bagdad_bob_large.gif
 
venne said:
You think it would be difficult to comprehend the shadows without a controller?

I don't question the novelty of it. I simply question the necessity of it.

I think it makes for a better tech demo, but I don't know if it makes for a better game.
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Absolutely. Like I said, using 2 analog to manipulate was hard as hell in echocrhome I. Using a light source in your hand is going to be so much more natural and easier. And its not like you are waggling your arms to do it. Its very natural. And I think that makes it more immersive

As per tech demo.Thats your opinion, looks like a perfect puzzle game to me.

.

Not a replacement, but for sure more immersive.
 
Ignis Fatuus said:
You're trying to propose that the "word" is good. I find it hard to credit that you actually believe that, but it is after all your job.
Click to expand...

You're trying to make another statement, which I may or may not agree with, but you seem to be dodging my original point. Which, in the context of Kinect vs. Move, is totally understandable.
 
Ignis Fatuus said:
You're trying to propose that the "word" is good. I find it hard to credit that you actually believe that, but it is after all your job.
Click to expand...
From what I've read, the massive focus on Kinect's limitations is mostly found on hardcore sites/blogs and forums such as this. Almost every hands-on impressions I've read, and articles on sites like the BBC have been pretty positive and optimistic.
 
Ignis Fatuus said:
You're trying to propose that the "word" is good. I find it hard to credit that you actually believe that, but it is after all your job.
Click to expand...

Doesn't really matter at this point. You guys have become part of Microsoft's brand awareness campaign. You're doing a great job.
 
beast786 said:
Well, its not meant for you. But echochrome was hard as hell because of 2 analog on DS3. Being able to have your vision manipulate and rotate with 2 analog was cumberson and hard.

This makes it alot more easy to manipulate. Instead of using two analog and try to figure things out on a go. You instead with move just juse like a real life light source.Plus having the light source outside the tv also makes it easy to see the and comprehend the shadows.
Again, something different and easy and innovative. Still few months to launch and I can imagine more stuff that way.
Click to expand...

Echochrome was hard because of the concept, because is a puzzle that don't follow any "logical" rule, so in the start you guess how to rotate the camera to get the correct perspective, but in the end you just random move the camera hoping to find a perspective that links A to B.

And that doesn't have any relationship with the 2 analogs (that in PSP was only one, to rotate the camera, I don't know in PS3)

Without controller, the subtle movements that you need to link some paths should be much more difficult.
 
DangerousDave said:
Echochrome was hard because of the concept, because is a puzzle that don't follow any "logical" rule, so in the start you guess how to rotate the camera to get the correct perspective, but in the end you just random move the camera hoping to find a perspective that links A to B.

And that doesn't have any relationship with the 2 analogs (that in PSP was only one, to rotate the camera, I don't know in PS3)

Without controller, the subtle movements that you need to link some paths should be much more difficult.
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I disagree on both parts. in echofrom 1 , first you had to look at the image and then imagine the solution in your head, and then try to rotate and move that image by using two analog sticks which themself arent naturual at all.

In this case, you have a light source in your hand. The shadow will appear like they do in real life. Hence you dont even have to think about how to rotate your analog stick and try to figure out how to represent the way in your head. Instead you skip fundling with analog and do what comes naturual to get that correct shadow. It completly removes the hurdle and the most frustrating part of echochrome. Which was trying to put the puzzle the way you had it imagined.

Plus, I think I made my point. If people dont agree, then we agree to disagree.
 
Paco said:
Doesn't really matter at this point. You guys have become part of Microsoft's brand awareness campaign. You're doing a great job.
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Good job spreading corporate propaganda? Is this what GAF is used for now?
 
chespace said:
Move just doesn't capture the imagination. We know how waggle works. And last I checked, core gamers like myself don't care for it. If you love it, awesome. But when I saw the Zelda demo at E3, my heart sank.
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Really that's your line? Or do you mean when you played it on the floor?
 
chespace said:
You're trying to make another statement, which I may or may not agree with, but you seem to be dodging my original point. Which, in the context of Kinect vs. Move, is totally understandable.
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I chose to focus on the part of the statement with which I found most to disagree. Yes, Move is not getting as much attention as Kinect--I can agree with that entirely.

InaudibleWhispa said:
From what I've read, the massive focus on Kinect's limitations is mostly found on hardcore sites/blogs and forums such as this. Almost every hands-on impressions I've read, and articles on sites like the BBC have been pretty positive and optimistic.
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He's talking about word of mouth, not media articles.

JesseZao said:
Still at it, eh? Heetee
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6 posts in this thread thus far. Truly staggering, I know.
 
chespace said:
On NeoGAF, I represent myself and my opinions on games are my own. I didn't think I'd need such an obvious disclaimer, but thisisgaf.gif I guess.
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Up until a couple days ago you had a Turn 10 avatar and up until the Forza criticisms got heated you were pretty active in the Forza thread. Then you turned to picking at GT fans. Now you've changed your avatar and are now defending Kinect and bashing Move, making up things like "And last I checked, core gamers like myself don't care for it." when really there are infinitely more core gamers on the Move hype train than Kinect. Kinect is beyond hopeless at this point if you're a core gamer looking for core games.

About Kinect, you say, "Lots of people talking about Kinect, whether it's the potential, speculating about its limits, or the price point." You say that as if you believe it's having a positive effect within the core or even casual community.


And then we have all these junior Aaron Greenbergs who blow off anyone who complains that there aren't any core games for Kinect. There are those who over the last year have talked up Kinect's then-amazing-seeming potential for core games. AFAIK, none of the people defending the casual direction now were shooting down core game ideas before MS came out with the launch lineup at E3. It's only after MS showed their cards that people took the apologetic anti-core stance. Pfft.
 
cakefoo said:
Up until a couple days ago you had a Turn 10 avatar and up until the Forza criticisms got heated you were pretty active in the Forza thread. Then you turned to picking at GT fans. Now you've changed your avatar and are now defending Kinect and bashing Move, making up things like "And last I checked, core gamers like myself don't care for it." when really there are infinitely more core gamers on the Move hype train than Kinect. Kinect is beyond hopeless at this point if you're a core gamer looking for core games. And about Kinect,"Lots of people talking about Kinect, whether it's the potential, speculating about its limits, or the price point," you say it as if it's having a positive effect.


And then we have all these junior Aaron Greenbergs who blow off anyone who complains that there aren't any core games for Kinect. There are those who over the last year have talked up Kinect's then-amazing-seeming potential for core games. AFAIK, none of the people defending the casual direction now were shooting down core game ideas before MS came out with the launch lineup at E3. It's only after MS showed their cards that people took the apologetic anti-core stance. Pfft.
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Give devs time with the tech dude. They have only had about a year to work on it, and the dev kits kept getting additional functionality during that year. Hard to design a game against non implemented functionality and a moving code base.
 
JaggedSac said:
Give devs time with the tech dude. They have only had about a year to work on it, and the dev kits kept getting additional functionality during that year.
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Yeah yeah... *shrugs* Just like Molyneux said.

I'll believe it when I see it. Believe me, I want it to change core gaming. All the best controller innovations do. But I'm not gonna sit here and happily accept the casual-only lineup until then.
 
JaggedSac said:
Give devs time with the tech dude. They have only had about a year to work on it, and the dev kits kept getting additional functionality during that year. Hard to design a game against non existent functionality and a moving code base.
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The problems of Kinect are from their concept, is not related of if the devs are more or less used to them.

Yeah, they will make better eyetoy-like minigame collections, but they will still be eyetoy-like minigame collections. There is no way to make core games for Kinect, independently of the time the devs had the tech.

- No way to represent a full 360 movement of an avatar (camera movement in 3D + movement in 2D) from the movements of the player, because the player can't move.
- A intuitive and quick way to differenciate between the 8-10 different kind of actions that a character do in a core game.
- A lack of pointing (you can position your hand, but Kinect never will be able to know where your finger is pointing), that is necessary in first and third person shooters.

About Forza PR, a first party PR saying that the product of the main competence is crap. Old news at 11. Also, getting a post in a forum and converting it in an official statement. That's why i don't ever say in the web where I work.
 
chespace said:
You're trying to make another statement, which I may or may not agree with, but you seem to be dodging my original point. Which, in the context of Kinect vs. Move, is totally understandable.
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Unrelated to this post, but the guy in your avatar looks like he's holding the PS Move Gun controller. :lol

idehp5.gif
 
venne said:
That's clever, but I don't see why you'd need a motion controller for it. Two analog sticks would work just as well to manipulate the light source.
Never got into echochrome, though. So it's a moot point for me.
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The MOVE controller changes the way that you play the game completely. If you can't see how then I don't know what to say.


OldJadedGamer said:
Judging from your post history in MS threads, I'd say you have a lot of interest in the system
I don't see how this game *requires* waggle though..
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Isn't it obvious that making the game use the MOVE controller changes the way the player would have to play the game?

chespace said:
On NeoGAF, I represent myself and my opinions on games are my own. I didn't think I'd need such an obvious disclaimer, but thisisgaf.gif I guess.
Anyway, my original point still stands. Lots of people talking about Kinect, whether it's the potential, speculating about its limits, or the price point. Truth is, folks are talking about Kinect and the word is spreading. This is how tech becomes common household knowledge.
Move just doesn't capture the imagination. We know how waggle works. And last I checked, core gamers like myself don't care for it. If you love it, awesome. But when I saw the Zelda demo at E3, my heart sank.
Click to expand...

So you think Zelda looks bad now? You can't imagine how Nintendo would fix any of those problems out before release? It almost seem like you think MS's version of motion control is the best and only good version.
 
Never said Kinect was going to convince the core. At least not yet. We'll see. It will come down to innovation and software. Still doesn't change my original point though.

As for my avatar, I thought it might be less controversial to use something neutral. Yup I occasionally give info on Forza and respond to questions, but I participate in many more threads. Including games I care about, like GT5. Felt like the avatar too much of a magnet :lol
 
JaggedSac said:
Give devs time with the tech dude. They have only had about a year to work on it, and the dev kits kept getting additional functionality during that year. Hard to design a game against non implemented functionality and a moving code base.
Click to expand...
Zipper only had a few weeks to implement Move for GDC.

It was already working really well.
 
Redbeard said:
I'd like to get some decent first party games other than Halo and Gears sequels once in a while.
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Are those games first party?

Redbeard said:
I'm pretty mad, tbh. I'd like to see a new Perfect Dark not rushed for a launch window. I'd like to see more artsty / japanese titles.
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Fair enough, but how is Kinect to blame for this?

Redbeard said:
Microsoft has the hardcore in their back pocket. All they need to do is release more Gears and more Halo. Just let third parties do the rest, right? Well, that's their thinking. The longer this generation goes on the less interest I have for the system or Microsoft's vision for gaming.
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Buy another console to go along with your 360 then, if you haven't already. The majority of games are multi-platform and the majority of multi-platform games are better on the 360, where you also have things like custom soundtracks in all games and a far better online system than PSN where people have been shouting "where's cross-game chat!????" for the last 4 years. XBLA kills the games that come out on PSN as well in terms of quality and quantity. Those are the main reasons why I still use (and almost certainly will continue to use) my 360 for any game that isn't exclusive to another console. I was a huge fan of Nintendo systems and games up until the Wii arrived, but rather than get mad/angry about the direction they took, I spend most of my time gaming elsewhere.
 
derFeef said:
You mean because it´s positive? Oh wow, why?


I liked the "make figures to collect coins" part. Remembered me of that human tetris show. :D
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Positive it look more like a pay add,slamming wii games and Move more than anything,and completely ignoring one of the worst problem the tech has lag,which he just mention like is nothing an talks no further of it.
 
mckmas8808 said:
So you think Zelda looks bad now? You can't imagine how Nintendo would fix any of those problems out before release? It almost seem like you think MS's version of motion control is the best and only good version.
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I'm not sure if there really is too much to fix. Anyone thinking reasonably knows it was faced with massive interference in the conference. And I don't remember really hearing negative reports from impressions on the show floor.

Anyway, Kinect will do well this holiday I think, with obnoxious marketing no doubt. But I really don't see a bright future for it. Just so many weird limitations in my opinion. And the projected, half-confirmed expense.
 
JardeL said:
Someone lost his job?
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Hah, no, still at T10. Ive been looking for a dedicated CM for a while now. Actually just hired someone awesome for this job today! All will be revealed soon.
 
chespace said:
Never said Kinect was going to convince the core. At least not yet. We'll see. It will come down to innovation and software. Still doesn't change my original point though.
As for my avatar, I thought it might be less controversial to use something neutral. Yup I occasionally give info on Forza and respond to questions, but I participate in many more threads. Including games I care about, like GT5. Felt like the avatar too much of a magnet :lol
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How do you know more people are talking about Kinect (outside of GAF)?
 
mckmas8808 said:
Isn't it obvious that making the game use the MOVE controller changes the way the player would have to play the game?
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There is nothing in that video that showed that exact game couldn't be done on the Wii with the same end effect. Why does "MOVE" (not sure why are are all capping it) have to be used?
 
OldJadedGamer said:
There is nothing in that video that showed that exact game couldn't be done on the Wii with the same end effect. Why does "MOVE" (not sure why are are all capping it) have to be used?
Click to expand...


I agree it could be done on the Wii. That's my point. It's best played on a motion controller and not on a regular controller. And I personally put MOVE in caps to show that I'm talking about the controller and not saying the word move (like move out of the way).
 
DangerousDave said:
The problem of Natal is the NO CONTROLLER bullshit.

Seriously, it's ok if they want to have a camera for casual games.

But they only showed Eyetoy+ games. Non a single "enhanced feature" for core games, like Sony did with Move, PSEye or 3D.

When Kotaku asked if they will use Kinect to improve core games like Halo Reach or Gears of War 3, Microsoft said that no. That core games are with controller and Kinect games to use without controller. Also, that no 360 games will be updated to have Kinect features.

If they have shown, for example, someone playing Forza with a controller or a wheel, using Kinect to have headtracking, and then, showing how the player can take out the hands from the wheel, and keep playing. Or show, in Halo Reach campaign, giving orders to the support soldiers. But no.

No use of Kinect improve for hardcore games. None. Zero. As much, you can play Forza with the wheel or controller, but without headtracking... or play it without controller, with the unacurate hand position, and headtracking. And no head tracking (maybe not even voice command) for Halo Reach, Gears of War, Call of Duty, etc. They didn't even mentioned Kinect as an alternative of headphone speakers in the games (like PSEye can be used). The only thing that core games have is the promise of Kinect improvements in Fable, that probably will be a set of Kinect minigames, like the Fable Pub Games, to earn more money.

And NO single party has talked also about enhancements of core games with Kinect. I suspect that MS maybe even forbidden the use of Kinect as enhancement of controller experiences.
Click to expand...



God forbid that you bring a point like that.

Is like Nintendo releasing the Wii but not making use of motion on any of their signature games.

If MS will make people spend $150 dollars for Kinect,they should at least support all fronts and not just casuals mini games,make a mix a combination,of control Kinect,or something like it not just some mini games and that is it.


Is one part the Wii and even Move has them beat,hell sony will update some games to work with move,while MS refuse to do the same.
 
TheOddOne said:
How can I counter when all I read is jibberish? Ok I'll try.
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I have the camera,and i can use my DS3,instead of the sub controller wait that make it $50 + 1 game which probably end in $90 since sony say all of their move games would be $39.99,so how much for Natal + 1 game $210.

Come on dude be real.
 
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