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[Romars202129]

Yeah, that sums it up for me as well. I feel the original plan was probably a bit grander in scale, and I do dislike that big loose end exists. But he got the bones out at least. Got to live with that.

 

[Ratrat]

Cant wait for the inevitable stories we'll hear years down the road regarding the games development.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Cant wait for the inevitable stories we'll hear years down the road regarding the games development.

Even then people will be saying that it was all intentional and all part of Kojima's master plan and that the game didn't have any development issues that resulted in abhorrent pacing and an incomplete narrative. (Because as we know, chapter formats always logically end at 2 right? -_-)

 

[Joeku]

When making an interquel you take on the difficulties of an interquel: at best, you open up new ideas and close them in the same entry because we all know what came before and comes after, and and worst you fudge what's existing and introduce things that leave loose ends that we know never get expanded upon.

Considering it explicitly did the latter, the response shouldn't be "we all know where it goes, why does it bother you that it's messy?" It should be "we all know where it goes, why did they do this?"

 

[Zack Zavage]

Subbed.

Gonna have a look into this after I finished the game.

 

[Ratrat]

Even then people will be saying that it was all intentional and all part of Kojima's master plan and that the game didn't have any development issues that resulted in abhorrent pacing and an incomplete narrative. (Because as we know, chapter formats always logically end at 2 right? -_-)

Those two things? Who knows, nobody expects a MGS game to be 80 hours. They absolutely did not have to stretch the game out that long because of lack of content. There was enough content. Just seems like a really stupid and deliberate decision to me. The narrative is fine too. Its not great but there is a clear beginning and end even if you hate it.

I'm thinking more about stuff in between. Like what the fuck is up with MB, mission variety, radio variety, lack of side characters, lack of difficulty options, multiple saves. The list of small things that look like they didn't have time to include goes on. And it wouldn't have been so bad if it didn't seem like they should be there. They might as well have kept MB in a menu.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Those two things? Who knows, nobody expects a MGS game to be 80 hours. They absolutely did not have to stretch the game out that long because of lack of content. There was enough content. Just seems like a really stupid and deliberate decision to me. The narrative is fine too. Its not great but there is a clear beginning and end even if you hate it.

I'm thinking more about stuff in between. Like what the fuck is up with MB, mission variety, radio variety, lack of side characters, lack of difficulty options, multiple saves. The list of small things that look like they didn't have time to include goes on. And it wouldn't have been so bad if it didn't seem like they should be there. They might as well have kept MB in a menu.

There is a clear beginning, (a section we saw years ago in a nearly complete state), and a really abrupt ending which is mission 46 on the list, with no context of the scene followed by repeats of the same mission, I mean ffs the mission even has the tutorial prompts in still. The game seems like a very cobbled mess as you progress through the game.

 

[SomTervo]

You can't seriously say that games don't regularly get that level of content cuts. Most of the time it ends up being shit that easily gets spotted as "This is a sequel thing then" or "it's gonna be dlc".

Remember Liara's questline being cut from ME2, along with two whole squadmates? Fast forward to ME3 and we ended up getting severe cuts that people were able to identify because of the leaked script from the beta. And then there was the total dlc plan redesign as a result of the backlash that was rumored to originally involve a cerberus "phoenix project", a collector ship that was away from the core during the suicide mission of that game, and a more involved dlc to expand the endgame, as paid dlc. (much of this ended up getting confirmed via the multiplayer dlc that came later, as it wasn't effected by the restructuring, and still matched up with the expected timelines of those original leaks.)

The uncertainty of the future of the series is what makes this a more hot button issue. In ANY other climate it would have just been seen as "Oh they're gonna have the next game open up with the liquid thing."

Think about MGS2. That game doesn't resolve vamp's fate, it cut out gameplay segments from the opening (an unwinnable fight against ray, running from the flooding tanker), it cut two bosses (old boy and chinaman), most of the ending was cut as a response to 9/11 (which is actually what gives the game as much of a dreamy weird feeling at the end that fueled "is it real or a vr?" more than was intended, snake vs ocelot at the end was also cut, and a major water segment between big shell and arsenal gear was also cut....there were gonna be sharks in the game!), and then the game doesnt even wrap up it's own loose ends with the patriots plotline or anything. But it was fine because they were gonna wrap it all up in MGS3, right? At least they found a way to bring old boy back as the end. (This is just what happens) You wanna know some serious gameplay cuts? Hey MGS4 had 3 entire characters cut form the game. Two of which were probably going to be bosses!

http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Adam_(cut_character)

http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Snake-Man

http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Johnny_(Soviet_soldier)


What it ACTUALLY comes down to is how capable you think a future game can be without kojima, and further down this konami rabbit hole. Eli's mission being cut, if we didn't know so much of the behind the scenes drama, would just seem like a sequel stinger "if ever there was one." The problem is people were looking for closure to the series with this one. (The irony is that we already got closure back in 2008 with MGS4.)

Absolutely love this post. A history of the fanbase's negative reactions to MGS games:

> MGS1 was a fresh take on MG2's ideas, even if it had some flaws
> people (not all people) flipped the fuck out over MGS2 calling the story bad/stupid, a disappointment as an MGS game, unfinished, etc
> people flipped the fuck out over MGS4 calling the story bad/stupid (fanservice aside), a disappointment as an MGS game, all cutscene no gameplay
> people flipped the fuck out over MGSV, calling the story bad/stupid, a disappointment as an MGS game, all gameplay no cutscene

History twists in on itself like a Möbius strip.

And it's worth noting that critics – people professionally evaluating a game on how good it is as entertainment – broadly loved all the games.

They are all great games.

Even MGSV.

Fin.

 

[Plasma]

You can't seriously say that games don't regularly get that level of content cuts. Most of the time it ends up being shit that easily gets spotted as "This is a sequel thing then" or "it's gonna be dlc".

Remember Liara's questline being cut from ME2, along with two whole squadmates? Fast forward to ME3 and we ended up getting severe cuts that people were able to identify because of the leaked script from the beta. And then there was the total dlc plan redesign as a result of the backlash that was rumored to originally involve a cerberus "phoenix project", a collector ship that was away from the core during the suicide mission of that game, and a more involved dlc to expand the endgame, as paid dlc. (much of this ended up getting confirmed via the multiplayer dlc that came later, as it wasn't effected by the restructuring, and still matched up with the expected timelines of those original leaks.)

ME2 never felt like an incomplete game, having two squadmates be cut ultimately didn't matter because you had so many to begin with and although Liara's questline was never fully addressed in the base game they did make good on it in the DLC. ME3 was a rushed mess and it rightly caught a lot of shit for it. ME3 might have had a terrible ending but MGSV was butchered of anything even resembling an ending. The entirety of Chapter 2 was a complete and utter mess the game as a whole does nothing for the story in the entire MGS franchise and that it's Kojima's last makes it even worse. I doubt Mission 51 would have been enough to salvage the game but it's a pretty clear indicator that this game was rushed out the door before it was even remotely complete.

 

[SomTervo]

Cant wait for the inevitable stories we'll hear years down the road regarding the games development.

True. I imagine we'll hear things similar to Kotaku's great Destiny blow-out.

We all knew how it must have gone down, and the article just confirmed that. Same thing will probably happen with MGSV.

 

[mcarlie]

there is no justification for selling this game unfinished.

How is it unfinished? It's up to the creator to determine when a story ends.

 

[JackelZXA]

ME2 never felt like an incomplete game, having two squadmates be cut ultimately didn't matter because you had so many to begin with and although Liara's questline was never fully addressed in the base game they did make good on it in the DLC. ME3 was a rushed mess and it rightly caught a lot of shit for it. ME3 might have had a terrible ending but MGSV was butchered of anything even resembling an ending. The entirety of Chapter 2 was a complete and utter mess the game as a whole does nothing for the story in the entire MGS franchise and that it's Kojima's last makes it even worse. I doubt Mission 51 would have been enough to salvage the game but it's a pretty clear indicator that this game was rushed out the door before it was even remotely complete.

Dude I was way deep on ME2 and that game felt like it had some cut shit. I played it a few months after I finished 1 and they basically swept most of the ME1 characters under the bus, and then I find out (Through Bioware Forums) that there is a 12th character missing (kasumi) who's name was on pre-release materials, and missing code in the game for Liara's sidequest. I was really massively disappointed in the treatment of Liara until they added that DLC. ME2 is a great game, but playing ME1 as late as I did (and being completely sucked into it's lore and world) allowed me to really compare the two games back to back. Parts of the game felt super rushed, especially anything dealing with the direct political fallout of ME1. It felt like they were trying to sell me some new shit the entire game and barely acknowledged my hundreds of hours spent in the first game. ME1 was this narratively super fleshed out and (narratively) polished story. ME2 was just generic action tropes and GO SHOOT UH COLLECTORS!! DOES IT MATTER TO THE OVERALL STORY? NOT SO MUCH! As far back as ME2 your choices stopped mattering because they started cutting corners in development back THEN. Your squad barely even talked on missions or gave you any input through most of the game. I couldn't believe they backpeddled so hard on the Council's reaction to Soverign, and then Anderson isn't even in the game. On top of that, Shepard basically acts like a completely different character, with far less dialog choices than the previous game. ME3 was the worst it got, but ME2 was still....problematic.

MGSV does plenty for the overall story. It fixes some of the lamer aspects of MGS4's storyline in acts 3 and 5 by actually developing Zero's character and showed what the human element of the organization that would become the patriots could accomplish through XOF, to name a few things. The gameplay structure of the game has a lot of problems, but Chapter 2 isn't nearly as bad if you just do side ops instead of the repeat missions (Real easy if you put off the Wandering MSF Soldiers missions until chapter 2, i'm finding out in my second playthrough) Depending on how you play the game your experience will be wildly better or worse than someone else's. There are some standout amazing moments in this game and some that are the most interesting in the series. Missing content doesn't devalue what's already there, and Chapter 2 has the best story shit and tapes in it! Are you kidding me? Yeah the game's got it's problems, but within it's genre I'd say it's still leagues better than anything Ubisoft's cranking out these days. Game's incredible for what it is and there is some genuinely interesting stuff that has huge impact on the series and I don't mean the Venom Snake reveal. That was a minor aspect and more of a way for Kojima to deliver a message to the fans through the voice of Big Boss. If someone were to play MGS4 after MGSV, they'd probably have a very different reaction to the Big Mama Speech and Graveyard sequence at the end. This game created bridges in the story, MGS4 was the closure game. Go play that again! It's great! Flaws, missing content, and all...

Honestly, I feel like PW, GZ, and PP are a great narrative bridge between 3 and 4. My preferred order I'd recommend to people is: 1 2 3 Peace V 4. 4 still functions as a great conclusion and it's strengthened by what PW and V do for the stories of the patriots and Zero. I think the best order to play the games in is: "release order with 4 last. rising after that if you want an encore." PW's chapter 5 reveal would be much stronger without knowing about 4 already, and the Truth tapes you get at the end of MGSV are the perfect background information to make MGS4 matter without spoiling anything from that game. It's what I'd reccomend to people. PW and V make 4 a better game in retrospect.

Every MGS game IS met with massive backlash other than 3 aren't they? There was a reddit thread the other day of people going back through old IGN message boards and looking at posts back when MGS2 came out about how Kojima betrayed the fans and it was an injustice to lie to gamers like this through marketing and blah de blah de blah. It's all the same shit over again. People can't appreciate something for what it is because they're in love with their expectations and need some youtuber to explain why MGS2 is great to them after the fact. MGS4 had a huge backlash, Peace Walker had a huge backlash, Rising had a huge backlash, Ground Zeroes had a huge backlash, and now we're at the newest, most hyperbolic backlash of all! It's a shame Kojima's leaving, because I'm gonna miss people complaining about the latest game not being as good as 3. (Maybe if Rising 2 ever gets made...)

 

[SomTervo]

Every MGS game IS met with massive backlash other than 3 aren't they? There was a reddit thread the other day of people going back through old IGN message boards and looking at posts back when MGS2 came out about how Kojima betrayed the fans and it was an injustice to lie to gamers like this through marketing and blah de blah de blah. It's all the same shit over again. People can't appreciate something for what it is because they're in love with their expectations and need some youtuber to explain why MGS2 is great to them after the fact. MGS4 had a huge backlash, Peace Walker had a huge backlash, Rising had a huge backlash, Ground Zeroes had a huge backlash, and now we're at the newest, most hyperbolic backlash of all! It's a shame Kojima's leaving, because I'm gonna miss people complaining about the latest game not being as good as 3. (Maybe if Rising 2 ever gets made...)

Yes, each and every MGS game is massively divisive. Each one has their own group of vehement and vocal detractors. After every release people think each one is the 'worst one' (except perhaps MGS3).

MGSV has big problems, I'd never deny that, but I also acknowledge what is there. And it's great for the most part. Every MGS game has problems - MGS3 has the fewest.

PS loving your posts

 

[Henkka]

The idea is that you're misremembering/blacking-out

Spoiler

that whole bit after all your hypnotism

. The whole thing is an unreliable narrator narrative.

Spoiler

Venom Snake

is only seeing what fits with his internal logic.

That is - the doctor DID show you, but

Spoiler

your mind denied it/forgot it, blanking the bit where he slipped it aside and turned it around.

I get that... But the way it was done felt cheap imo. It feels like straight-up lying to the player. In addition, besides

Spoiler

Paz

, the theme of Venom being an unreliable narrator isn't explored in the game. He never hallucinates anything outside the prologue and the med bay. It's mostly a red herring to trick the player into thinking the Burning Man or the Skulls could be hallucinatory, but nah... Just parasites. And revenge, or something.

 

[RevolverRoden]

You can't seriously say that games don't regularly get that level of content cuts. Most of the time it ends up being shit that easily gets spotted as "This is a sequel thing then" or "it's gonna be dlc".

Remember Liara's questline being cut from ME2, along with two whole squadmates? Fast forward to ME3 and we ended up getting severe cuts that people were able to identify because of the leaked script from the beta. And then there was the total dlc plan redesign as a result of the backlash that was rumored to originally involve a cerberus "phoenix project", a collector ship that was away from the core during the suicide mission of that game, and a more involved dlc to expand the endgame, as paid dlc. (much of this ended up getting confirmed via the multiplayer dlc that came later, as it wasn't effected by the restructuring, and still matched up with the expected timelines of those original leaks.)

The uncertainty of the future of the series is what makes this a more hot button issue. In ANY other climate it would have just been seen as "Oh they're gonna have the next game open up with the liquid thing."

Think about MGS2. That game doesn't resolve vamp's fate, it cut out gameplay segments from the opening (an unwinnable fight against ray, running from the flooding tanker), it cut two bosses (old boy and chinaman), most of the ending was cut as a response to 9/11 (which is actually what gives the game as much of a dreamy weird feeling at the end that fueled "is it real or a vr?" more than was intended, snake vs ocelot at the end was also cut, and a major water segment between big shell and arsenal gear was also cut....there were gonna be sharks in the game!), and then the game doesnt even wrap up it's own loose ends with the patriots plotline or anything. But it was fine because they were gonna wrap it all up in MGS3, right? At least they found a way to bring old boy back as the end. (This is just what happens) You wanna know some serious gameplay cuts? Hey MGS4 had 3 entire characters cut form the game. Two of which were probably going to be bosses!

http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Adam_(cut_character)

http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Snake-Man

http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Johnny_(Soviet_soldier)


What it ACTUALLY comes down to is how capable you think a future game can be without kojima, and further down this konami rabbit hole. Eli's mission being cut, if we didn't know so much of the behind the scenes drama, would just seem like a sequel stinger "if ever there was one." The problem is people were looking for closure to the series with this one. (The irony is that we already got closure back in 2008 with MGS4.)

This post is my life.
all JackelZXA's posts are spot on tbh
Also, playing in release order except saving 4 for last actually sounds really great

 

[Hitoribhoshi]

Finished or not, I'm still puzzled as to what they did in those 4 years when they had this back in 2011 :

https://youtu.be/ClVzMLvjySE

I mean we could argue that programming the whole thing, modeling, mocap, sound/voice over recording, polishing the game took them 4 years..
but I'm having a hard time believing that.
there's just too much unexplained stuff (story-wise or weird ass side stuff), not to mention huge cut stuff from trailers, episode 51 and chapter 3 peace.

don't get me wrong, I loved the experience I had with the game (thank god hard mission replays aren't mendatory to unlock the truth mission) and its weird meta.

that Nuke ending is still to be unlocked in game too.

so what' s this new tape playing in the sony msx2 in the end then? (after the patch) (did they switch pc-6001 data for msx-2 data?

Edit : seems like my hunch was good,they replaced the portopia pc-6001 data by msx data, namely the msx MG1 header. (which is silly since to my knowledge MG1 was never officially released on tape but on cartridge) (they'd need to hack the rom a lot more for MG1 rom to load as a tape)
http://www.msx.org/forum/msx-talk/general-discussion/metal-gear-solid-5-cassette-tape?page=17

 

[SomTervo]

Finished or not, I'm still puzzled as to what they did in those 4 years when they had this back in 2011 :

I like your post, but that's not how game development works. We can see a handful of assets in that screen, on one location. For all we know, the only thing Snake could do was move. The rest of the world beyond that screenshot might have been empty.

I get that... But the way it was done felt cheap imo. It feels like straight-up lying to the player. In addition, besides

Spoiler

Paz

, the theme of Venom being an unreliable narrator isn't explored in the game. He never hallucinates anything outside the prologue and the med bay. It's mostly a red herring to trick the player into thinking the Burning Man or the Skulls could be hallucinatory, but nah... Just parasites. And revenge, or something.

Yeah, the execution was all over the shop. I'd never deny that. But I still think it worked enough.

The parasites thing was ridiculous, but only slightly more ridiculous than the nanomachines thing. If you're going to complain about that you might as well write off the entire series from MGS2.

 

[Hitoribhoshi]

haha, thanks^^''
I know that's not how it works, (and used to be a computer science engineer(not working in the gaming industry at all though), but still, you can tell from the screenshot and the video that they had Fox engine up and running with general assets and some pretty final character models for both afganistan and africa in 2011.

I do get your point and we rarely get to see how those games are done and a their development timeline, but we're shown games all the time that are in rough/alpha state and come out much quicker.

I agree that mgsV has a lot of content (side objectives proved to be almost like a second game altogether), "but still", I can't help but feeling puzzle/surprized.

I do agree with what you're saying though, to add to what the other quoted perso said, how can we know for sure he wasn't hallucinating lots more? (I'm no talking about what's already explained in the tapes with parasites like skulls etc), we do see those washed out colors from the hospital part when hurt (sometimes) for instance.

(you mentioning parasite reminds me that we still don't know who

Spoiler

close from Venom Snake (according to Skull Face) is carrying the parasites, since it can't be Quiet, because the line is the same if you never recruited her/killed her.

)

 

[Ric Flair]

After stepping away from the game for awhile, I think this is the worst story by far in all the MGS games. The gameplay is amazing, but I never felt like I was playing an MGS game. I missed the Codec calls for sure.

 

[Oldest Snake]

(you mentioning parasite reminds me that we still don't know who

Spoiler

close from Venom Snake (according to Skull Face) is carrying the parasites, since it can't be Quiet, because the line is the same if you never recruited her/killed her.

)

Spoiler

Pretty sure it's always her. Plot hole or no. There are only 3 vials of the English strain and between Quiet having already been infected with it, the one burned by Venom and the one picked up by Mantis there aren't any vials left.

 

[Hitoribhoshi]

^ sounds like a pretty big plot hole tbh, but okay lol

 

[Bossun]

After stepping away from the game for awhile, I think this is the worst story by far in all the MGS games. The gameplay is amazing, but I never felt like I was playing an MGS game. I missed the Codec calls for sure.

Exactly. Worst Story, worst architecture for the game, worst use of sides characters. Very limited content wise.

The thing that hurt worst though is the gameplay. While good it wasn't really a mgs, and the gameplay was not helped be the worst level design of mgs

 

[Crossing Eden]

^ sounds like a pretty big plot hole tbh, but okay lol

Another huge plot hole, this entire scene. The fact that VS didn't get infected is total nonsense. The plot is godawful.

 

[Hitoribhoshi]

Spoiler

Another huge plot hole, this entire scene. The fact that VS didn't get infected is total nonsense. The plot is godawful.

My understanding is that parasite activate FOR HER after that (if she's a carrier), and that VS would have to speak directly to her to get infected.
Anywho, admittedly he could be infected, so? he could also be treated, not like we heard of him having kids afterwards or anything lol

 

[Henkka]

Another huge plot hole, this entire scene. The fact that VS didn't get infected is total nonsense. The plot is godawful.

I guess by speaking, she sacrificed herself? Like the scene is framed as this heroic self-sacrifice, but it's really unclear what happened to Quiet after that. Did she just wander into the desert to die? Or... What. Goddamnit.

 

[Hitoribhoshi]

^that's my understanding.

Spoiler

or she had or never had the parasite inside of her, was a ruse from Skull Face (or not), but the one "infected and close to VS" at this point could be anyone (I don't think it's quiet though), really, Kaz was abducted by skull face (there's the eyes on Mille bit from Code Talker), code talker, ocelot (who's working for the patriots at some level), huey. that being said, they all freely speak english.

 

[Jangowuzhere]

Another huge plot hole, this entire scene. The fact that VS didn't get infected is total nonsense. The plot is godawful.

Not a plot hole. It's not like the virus is something that happens instantaneously. It takes some time to fully gestate before it becomes infectious. All of mother base would already be dead during the outbreak if the virus just worked immediately.

 

[WordsintheWater]

He's still trying to excuse the shit story he wrote? Just take your lumps and move on. You didn't do the series justice with your last game, it's okay.

 

[MichaelFassbender]

He's still trying to excuse the shit story he wrote? Just take your lumps and move on. You didn't do the series justice with your last game, it's okay.

The series was overall written badly. It's just a soft target for people to project onto, good and bad. Sub-Tom Clancy with a dash of ANIME and stir with a toilet plunger.