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Kotaku: Sony is working on a ‘PS4.5; briefing devs on plans for a more powerful PS4

B

Blanquito

Member
Raist said:
Regarding the TrueAudio/DSP thing:

dspozst9.jpg
Click to expand...

Can you link to the thread? Thanks!
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
LordOfChaos said:
Game over for any theories that it's not yet used for games?
Click to expand...
I was mostly wrong. It's only used for positional audio and supported by two middleware companies. It still uses a CPU just fewer cycles when using the DSP. Sound samples are run through the DSP rather than the DSP generating the sound.

Still you guys are picking at one point and not the others. "The Console will have more power but is primarily for System + Media + VR". That's either an updated Southbridge which they could have done with the last refresh or a Firmware update implementing the Accelerators in Southbridge. I still think the rumor is confusing a firmware update and a cheaper smaller PS4 with a more powerful PS4K.
 
L

Lady Gaia

Member
Screaming Meat said:
While I understand that, if I have to fork out a huge chunk of money for a console, then I'd rather it be the better performing/latest machine and not have another machine come along a year or so later (or whatever) that is incrementally better.
Click to expand...

You never "have to" fork out money for a product. The option is always there to apply a little self-discipline and upgrade less often. That same life skill will come in really handy elsewhere, trust me.

For all the assertions that this is nothing like buying a car I've watched the same mentality applied there. People who bought the original Tesla P85 Model S who couldn't stand the idea that something better existed and insisted on getting the P85+ improvements retrofitted, then the "Insane" mode upgrade, then watched as the P90D and "Ludicrous" mode came along. If you think gaming is an expensive hobby...
 
F

foxbeldin

Member
The idea of a PS4.5 that would run games better than the current one is really unpopular on the other forums i go to. People are really up in arms against it.
Not sure Sony should go down that road. Seems that it's going to be really difficult to swallow for a lot of PS4 owners.

My personal opinion on this is that i don't mind at all but i kinda feel alone when i'm not on gaf.
 
J

jeffram

Member
ZoyosJD said:
To answer your questions and give a little general background:

1920*2160 would scale more cleanly to 4k than 1440*2560 but the scaling would be done on the system as it is a nonstandard resolution.

The "2-2.5x" gains being quoted are from AMD's 300 series cards to Polaris. Those gains are a combination of architecture and the node change. The PS4 is based on 7000 series architecture. Since then we have seen the introduction of the 200 and 300 series cards with minor architectural changes themselves.

Thus we come into this situation where the node shrink is enough for a resolution like the 1920*2160 you mentioned, but not full 4k. It's that architectural improvements in addition to the die shrink which would allow 4k to be within spitting distance.

Herein lies the problem, architectural revisions (as minor as they may be) and "adding little bits" onto the APU complicate the backward - forward capability potential. particularly in a Gen where some games no longer have devs to support and potentially patch them. Thus some are trying to consider a system in which all games on the system would be natively rendered at a 4k without any effort from devs.

We will also need increases in CPU, RAM capacity, and bandwidth to support 4k resolution games.

16nm is an entirely new node process related to 3D -finFETs and guarantees that yields will be lower with the same size APU die and thus more costly per area than 28nm.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the insight. Any idea what the yield rate would be like compared to what it is now?
 
THE:MILKMAN

THE:MILKMAN

Member
foxbeldin said:
The idea of a PS4.5 that would run games better than the current one is really unpopular on the other forums i go to. People are really up in arms against it.
Not sure Sony should go down that road. Seems that it's going to be really difficult to swallow for a lot of PS4 owners.

My personal opinion on this is that i don't mind at all but i kinda feel alone when i'm not on gaf.
Click to expand...

Right now my opinion is it either has to be a substantial and clear upgrade or a slim/media update. Everything that is coming from game industry though is that it is actually a no mans land slight upgrade seemingly designed to piss everyone off.
 
O

omonimo

Banned
foxbeldin said:
The idea of a PS4.5 that would run games better than the current one is really unpopular on the other forums i go to. People are really up in arms against it.
Not sure Sony should go down that road. Seems that it's going to be really difficult to swallow for a lot of PS4 owners.

My personal opinion on this is that i don't mind at all but i kinda feel alone when i'm not on gaf.
Click to expand...
I think to release a more powerful ps4 is on the plan of Sony. But not now and I doubt this rumour it's relative to that. For the simple fact, now ps4 sell very well and it seems even the Japan starts to appreciate it. Announce a ps4.5 with the VR incoming, it's extremely illogical and dangerous for them; they can damage the actual ps4 sales furthermore, there is the VR to think first, for this e3. Otherwise I will not to be surprised to see an Xbox two this e3 considered the later sales contemporary with an Xbox slim at lower price. But I don't think the real ps4.5 will be announced this year.
 
N

ninjablade

Banned
Lady Gaia said:
You never "have to" fork out money for a product. The option is always there to apply a little self-discipline and upgrade less often. That same life skill will come in really handy elsewhere, trust me.

For all the assertions that this is nothing like buying a car I've watched the same mentality applied there. People who bought the original Tesla P85 Model S who couldn't stand the idea that something better existed and insisted on getting the P85+ improvements retrofitted, then the "Insane" mode upgrade, then watched as the P90D and "Ludicrous" mode came along. If you think gaming is an expensive hobby...
Click to expand...

exactly its like buying a new car, right when you take it of the lot, you lose 2000$, when you could have bought used and save a ton of money. if you buy something at launch you know you're gonna take a loss, i bought my ps4 after its first year out, got it at black friday for 329$ with gtav and the last of us, i sold gtav for 45$ so i got my ps3 for 290 i could sell today easy for 250$, ill do the same for ps4.5 wait till black friday and sell my ps4 2 weeks before.
 
E

e-gamer

Member
omonimo said:
I think to release a more powerful ps4 is on the plan of Sony. But not now and I doubt this rumour it's relative to that. For the simple fact, now ps4 sell very well and it seems even the Japan starts to appreciate it. Announce a ps4.5 with the VR incoming, it's extremely illogical and dangerous for them; they can damage the actual ps4 sales furthermore, there is the VR to think first, for this e3. Otherwise I will not to be surprised to see an Xbox two this e3 considered the later sales contemporary with an Xbox slim at lower price. But I don't think the real ps4.5 will be announced this year.
Click to expand...

But will it keep selling well if Microsoft make The first move to a better hardware?
 
I

-ImaginaryInsider

Member
foxbeldin said:
The idea of a PS4.5 that would run games better than the current one is really unpopular on the other forums i go to. People are really up in arms against it.
Not sure Sony should go down that road. Seems that it's going to be really difficult to swallow for a lot of PS4 owners.

My personal opinion on this is that i don't mind at all but i kinda feel alone when i'm not on gaf.
Click to expand...

Just for some context:

Forums had a fit when MS announced Xbox.
Forums had a fit over "broadband only" online multiplayer.
Forums had a fit over subscription based multiplayer services.

...And now we have a Playstation build like an Xbox with a broadband only subscription based multiplayer service that is the top selling console.

Forums don't equal the average consumer, lots of those posts are just knee jerk reactions by people that will go as far as signing an online boycott petition, and then immediately turn around and buy said console day one.
 
O

onQ123

Member
foxbeldin said:
The idea of a PS4.5 that would run games better than the current one is really unpopular on the other forums i go to. People are really up in arms against it.
Not sure Sony should go down that road. Seems that it's going to be really difficult to swallow for a lot of PS4 owners.

My personal opinion on this is that i don't mind at all but i kinda feel alone when i'm not on gaf.
Click to expand...


PS4 4th holiday is going to be big & PS4.5 will continue being what PS4 is & these concern & rage posts on forums will be about something else next year.
 
C

CosmicQueso

Member
foxbeldin said:
The idea of a PS4.5 that would run games better than the current one is really unpopular on the other forums i go to. People are really up in arms against it.
Click to expand...

That's alright.

In a few months, if this thing is real, those same arms will be lifting credit cards up to buy new consoles.
 
vpance

vpance

Member
foxbeldin said:
The idea of a PS4.5 that would run games better than the current one is really unpopular on the other forums i go to. People are really up in arms against it.
Not sure Sony should go down that road. Seems that it's going to be really difficult to swallow for a lot of PS4 owners.

My personal opinion on this is that i don't mind at all but i kinda feel alone when i'm not on gaf.
Click to expand...

Are they mostly young jelly kids?

They might protest at first, but what will they do? Give up gaming? That's not happening. The new reality will set in eventually.
 
Xander Crews

Xander Crews

Member
jeff_rigby said:
The OS is a combination of the APU and Southbridge. My understanding is that with full screen video the GPU is off and GDDR5 memory is in self refresh/standby. It can wake in a few clock cycles when video ends or some condition requires it. This is a requirement that Media be less than 21 watts for a blu-ray player or computer IPTV. There is no way to meet this 21 watt requirement with the GPU on and no way to meet network standby requirements with GDDR5 memory. There are multiple reasons for an ARM block in the XB1 APU using DDR3 memory with power islands that allow the GPU and other components to be turned off and in the PS4 with the Southbridge as an ARM block with it's own DDR3 memory with the APU and GDDR5 able to be "turned off" put into self refresh.

And before you jump on me, the above is what is supposed to happen but hasn't been implemented yet....
Click to expand...

Why do you think they haven't they implemented it yet? It seems like a great use of power management when using media players on the PS4.
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
Xander Crews said:
Why do you think they haven't they implemented it yet? It seems like a great use of power management when using media players on the PS4.
Click to expand...
That's really a head scratcher and responsible for my bad guess on when features were being released by Sony for the PS3 and PS4.

The PS3 still doesn't use Embedded Playready and HTML5 <video> EME MSE either..why? My best guess NOW is they were waiting for ATSC 3 recommend status which happens in 2016. ATSC 3 uses HTML5 <video> and one of the last pieces that I hear Sony working on with others was commercials seamlesssly being substituted into the video stream which impacts the player in southbridge, It's all about the standards being used and accepted by everyone.

ATSC 3 is also going to use HEVC Multiview profile 10 and that has still not been released. It will be part of the software codec in Southbridge
 
BiGBoSSMk23

BiGBoSSMk23

A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
jeff_rigby said:
That's really a head scratcher and responsible for my bad guess on when features were being released by Sony for the PS3 and PS4.

The PS3 still doesn't use Embedded Playready and HTML5 <video> EME MSE either..why? My best guess NOW is they were waiting for ATSC 3 recommend status which happens in 2016. ATSC 3 uses HTML5 <video> and one of the last pieces that I hear Sony working on with others was commercials seamlesssly being substituted into the video stream which impacts the player in southbridge, It's all about the standards being used and accepted by everyone.

ATSC 3 is also going to use HEVC Multiview profile 10 and that has still not been released. It will be part of the software codec in Southbridge
Click to expand...

Man you just love to use acronyms don't you?

I bet you sit there re-reading your posts like "damn that sounds techy as fuck. I know my shit."
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
Rapier said:
Man you just love to use acronyms don't you?

I bet you sit there re-reading your posts like "damn that sounds techy as fuck. I know my shit."
Click to expand...
If I use the correct terms you can google search but if I use "that thingy", you know, that is what everyone is going to use for future moving pictures. Well there is no way to search for "that thingy" or future moving pictures and get anything out of it.
 
K

Kralamoonard

Member
CosmicQueso said:
That's alright.

In a few months, if this thing is real, those same arms will be lifting credit cards up to buy new consoles.
Click to expand...

lol...do you think simply because it's the nature of the hype or that because finally we'll actually know what the damn thing will be and it won't be as bad as people are making it out to be?
 
C

CosmicQueso

Member
Kralamoonard said:
lol...do you think simply because it's the nature of the hype or that because finally we'll actually know what the damn thing will be and it won't be as bad as people are making it out to be?
Click to expand...

More the latter, with some of the former.

Some of the ideas being thrown around regarding what this thing might be are ludicrous, really.
 
LordOfChaos

LordOfChaos

Member
3AD101 said:
ARM architecture and slightly more powerful than a PS4?
Click to expand...

That website is dumb for sourcing the obviously not-developer redditor with no proof, but there's no particular reason ARM and being more powerful than the PS4 would be incompatible.

8 Cortex A72 cores would likely beat or at least trade blows with Jaguar, which was an Atom competitor remember. Then it's a matter of providing an adequate GPU around it. An AMD designed ARM APU could match or beat an AMD designed x86 APU or vice versa, the ISA means little.

Or the cores themselves could be custom, of course.
 
O

onQ123

Member
For the people who keep going back to this being 4K media only do you really think we would be hearing about this now if it was just for media?
 
duhmetree

duhmetree

Member
ZoyosJD said:
Herein lies the problem, architectural revisions (as minor as they may be) and "adding little bits" onto the APU complicate the backward - forward capability potential. particularly in a Gen where some games no longer have devs to support and potentially patch them. Thus some are trying to consider a system in which all games on the system would be natively rendered at a 4k without any effort from devs.

We will also need increases in CPU, RAM capacity, and bandwidth to support 4k resolution games.
Click to expand...

It needs to be done. Might as well do it now. The PS5 will be nothing like the PS4. Changing the architecture now makes some sense as a bridge.
 
DonMigs85

DonMigs85

Member
I don't think it's likely, but it would be hilarious if this ended up selling about as well as Wii U. After all, many people thought it was just an add-on or a slightly more powerful Wii.
 
O

onQ123

Member
DonMigs85 said:
I don't think it's likely, but it would be hilarious if this ended up selling about as well as Wii U. After all, many people thought it was just an add-on or a slightly more powerful Wii.
Click to expand...


I don't think they will keep track of it because to them it's just the PS4 but I'm going to say that it will reach Wii U numbers in the span of 16 months if it release before holiday 2016 & the PS4 OG run out of stock before holiday 2017
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
onQ123 said:
For the people who keep going back to this being 4K media only do you really think we would be hearing about this now if it was just for media?
Click to expand...
Some facts and speculation

Facts:
1) Sony has a BDA licence for a PC UHD Blu-ray player but has no PC platforms of their own. Microsoft has no BDA licence for a UHD Player but a VP said at launch the XB1 hardware can support UHD Blu-ray. I believe this is true for the PS4 also.
2) Microsoft's Playready ND is mentioned in Sony PDFs for the UHD Blu-ray digital bridge to allow sharing the media between platforms in the home.
3) Playstation VR goggles plug into a HDMI 2 port
4) Sony plans to support Playstation VR Goggles on PCs. The XB1 and PS4 are embedded PCs.
5) The Xtensa processsors in later AMD APUs and dGPUs can support openVX and/or the video distortion needed by VR googles. This is also true for the XB1 and PS4.
6) The Xtensa processsors in the same above can support frame rate doubling as well as UHD blu-ray up-converting and down converting video for 1080P TVs and 4K TVs (Digital bridge).
7) UHD IPTV, UHD Blu-ray and UHD Antenna TV all use the same software stack. If you can support UHD blu-ray with digital bridge then it's likely that you can support VR on the same platform.
8) UHD Antenna TV requires HEVC Multi-view and a planned future feature for Auto-stereoscopic (glassless 3D) requires HEVC Multi-view plus depth map; It requires only half again as much bandwidth and supports generating multiple angle views which Side by side can't support. HEVC Multi-view plus depth will be used for browser VR and UHD Blu-ray 3D; both require 120FPS which is a HDMI 2 feature and a UHD blu-ray HFR feature.

Speculation:

1) It's obvious and has been confirmed by Sony that they plan to support their VR goggles on PCs. The XB1 is speculation. Why has their been no mention of dedicated VR goggle for the XB1. Sony's will be the cheapest and has the least demanding display which the XB1 can probably support.

2) Facebook's interest in VR is tied to Browser VR which I'd guess means it will be a big market. Bigger than VR games?
3) Any UHD Blu-ray player with digital bridge has the software stack and performance for UHD Antenna TV and if it's designed to support UHD Auto-stereoscopic 3D has the GPGPU to support Browser VR and UHD Antenna TV 3D.

Conclusion but still speculation:

Microsoft and Sony plan to support all the above and have split up the various components. This is the possible reason for the domain registration by Microsoft of Microsoft-Sony.com

How does this relate to your statement and the OP? To support VR this October they will also be supporting many of the necessary components of a UHD Blu-ray digital bridge. Up-scaling to 4K is not just a resolution, it also is a totally different color pallete going from 8 bit to 10 bit and a change in dynamic range. "The Console will have more power but is primarily for System + Media + VR".

This is a continuation of the Games first with coming features we will see in media all over again.
 
0

00ich

Member
Hermii said:
Then why would Sony brief devs about it? That wouldn't matter to devs at all.
Click to expand...

4k video-cutscenes
Let's assume 4k is just another output resolution for the existing PS4 hardware. Just like 1080p on the PS3. If a game fancies it it can render in it and every game/app will output in. Be it upscaled (99% of the content) or native (some indie games).
 
K

kyser73

Member
foxbeldin said:
The idea of a PS4.5 that would run games better than the current one is really unpopular on the other forums i go to. People are really up in arms against it.
Not sure Sony should go down that road. Seems that it's going to be really difficult to swallow for a lot of PS4 owners.

My personal opinion on this is that i don't mind at all but i kinda feel alone when i'm not on gaf.
Click to expand...

They'll see the shiny & be happy.

They're all just in different stages of grief.
 
D

Diablos

Member
I'm just wondering if this is as simple as 4K gaming, maybe some better effects, or are they targeting 60fps gaming? Would this really be possible at 4K, even with new hardware, without it being super expensive? Which then begs the question -- will everything be locked at a certain framerate for parity between 1080p and 4K? Or will they allow for 1080p 60fps all the time knowing 4K may require a 30fps cap/detail downgrade in some scenarios?
 
O

onQ123

Member
jeff_rigby said:
Some facts and speculation

Facts:
1) Sony has a BDA licence for a PC UHD Blu-ray player but has no PC platforms of their own. Microsoft has no BDA licence for a UHD Player but a VP said at launch the XB1 hardware can support UHD Blu-ray. I believe this is true for the PS4 also.
2) Microsoft's Playready ND is mentioned in Sony PDFs for the UHD Blu-ray digital bridge to allow sharing the media between platforms in the home.
3) Playstation VR goggles plug into a HDMI 2 port
4) Sony plans to support Playstation VR Goggles on PCs. The XB1 and PS4 are embedded PCs.
5) The Xtensa processsors in later AMD APUs and dGPUs can support openVX and/or the video distortion needed by VR googles. This is also true for the XB1 and PS4.
6) The Xtensa processsors in the same above can support frame rate doubling as well as UHD blu-ray up-converting and down converting video for 1080P TVs and 4K TVs (Digital bridge).
7) UHD IPTV, UHD Blu-ray and UHD Antenna TV all use the same software stack. If you can support UHD blu-ray with digital bridge then it's likely that you can support VR on the same platform.
8) UHD Antenna TV requires HEVC Multi-view and a planned future feature for Auto-stereoscopic (glassless 3D) requires HEVC Multi-view plus depth map; It requires only half again as much bandwidth and supports generating multiple angle views which Side by side can't support. HEVC Multi-view plus depth will be used for browser VR and UHD Blu-ray 3D; both require 120FPS which is a HDMI 2 feature and a UHD blu-ray HFR feature.

Speculation:

1) It's obvious and has been confirmed by Sony that they plan to support their VR goggles on PCs. The XB1 is speculation. Why has their been no mention of dedicated VR goggle for the XB1. Sony's will be the cheapest and has the least demanding display which the XB1 can probably support.

2) Facebook's interest in VR is tied to Browser VR which I'd guess means it will be a big market. Bigger than VR games?
3) Any UHD Blu-ray player with digital bridge has the software stack and performance for UHD Antenna TV and if it's designed to support UHD Auto-stereoscopic 3D has the GPGPU to support Browser VR and UHD Antenna TV 3D.

Conclusion but still speculation:

Microsoft and Sony plan to support all the above and have split up the various components. This is the possible reason for the domain registration by Microsoft of Microsoft-Sony.com

How does this relate to your statement and the OP? To support VR this October they will also be supporting many of the necessary components of a UHD Blu-ray digital bridge. Up-scaling to 4K is not just a resolution, it also is a totally different color pallete going from 8 bit to 10 bit and a change in dynamic range. "The Console will have more power but is primarily for System + Media + VR".

This is a continuation of the Games first with coming features we will see in media all over again.
Click to expand...

Once Xbox One becomes fully a Windows 10 device with the Windows store it will support OR in some way I guess but at the same time with MS moving away from Xbox games to UWP games it would mean that the games could also be made to run on Hololens & other Windows devices including other VR/MR headsets.

Other words they don't have to make a VR set for Xbox One they can just add the support for other VR sets to UWP & UWA.
 
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