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Large protests in Ukraine over failure to sign EU trade deal

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K

Kinan

Member
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J

Jackpot

Banned
Liha said:
These protesters are terrorists and cop killers.
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When protests are so widespread and forceful that it not only requires BTRs to be sent in, but for BTRs to be repelled, most responsible governments would have realised they've lost their mandate to govern.

People like you would happily turn a blind eye to your neighbours' suffering.

Nilaul said:
tGK7Sv4.jpg


Russian involvement?
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Russian forces were spotted guarding buildings during the Orange revolution.
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B

badams

Member
Damn, just cought up with the events. I'm so pissed right now, fucking Yanukovych, fucking Putin, fucking EU ignoring this situation for months. Sometimes, I feel like no one in western Europe even gives a shit about countries like Ukraine or Belarus. Can't believe all of this is happening in the middle of Europe, just outside my country's border. Police shooting at people standing and singing their own anthem. So sad, this just isn't right.

Stay strong Ukraine-GAF, lots of support here from people all around Poland!
 
O

Oriel

Member
Liha said:
This is common sense, violence and murder are unacceptable. The government in ukraine is elected and no dictatorship. Yanukovych must set an example.
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Widespread voting irregularities means the government is illegitimate. Also many countries owe their independence because of direct, violent action, such as the United States for one.
 
D

Deleted member 80556

Unconfirmed Member
Livestream is off by "technical difficulties" it seems :/
 
C

Chariot

Member
Oriel said:
Short of arming the citizens with Stingers I don't see what the west can do. Sanctions are worth fuck all given most of the regime figures all just bank and trade with Russian institutions.
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Hey, the US rarely had any inhibitions when it came to bringing freedom to the world. If they attack middle eastern, north african and east asian countries with and without NATO permission for the sake of freedom, they can attack the Ukraine, too.

Or will you leave the people who scream for help against tyranny like you did with hungary, after you promised help for any country that wants help for freedom?

edit: I'm sorry, this is not exactly on topic. But I really think, that the EU and the US should threaten with war or forced liberation of the people. We can't just watch them die, crying for help.
 
P

pulsemyne

Member
badams said:
Damn, just cought up with the events. I'm so pissed right now, fucking Yanukovych, fucking Putin, fucking EU ignoring this situation for months. Sometimes, I feel like no one in western Europe even gives a shit about countries like Ukraine or Belarus. Can't believe all of this is happening in the middle of Europe, just outside my country's border. Police shooting at people standing and singing their own anthem. So sad, this just isn't right.

Stay strong Ukraine-GAF, lots of support here from people all around Poland!
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Western Europe does care (The BBC news is all about the Ukraine). The problem is the EU has to try and balance relations with Russia. If we are seen to act directly then the Russians could get annoyed and turn off all those gas taps that supply most of mainland europe. The EU does not want that.
The EU does want the Ukraine to lean more to it though as it lessens russias grip on the old soviet countries.
So we play the game that is needed. We don't give direct support and just stand back because ultimately the EU knows that the Ukrainian people would rather them than Putin. They also know that the people will win eventually.
After that you can bet your arse the EU will begin to assist the new government.
 
O

Oriel

Member
Chariot said:
Hey, the US rarely had any inhibitions when it came to bringing freedom to the world. If they attack middle eastern, north african and east asian countries with and without NATO permission for the sake of freedom, they can attack the Ukraine, too.

Or will you leave the people who scream for help against tyranny like you did with hungary, after you promised help for any country that wants help for freedom?

edit: I'm sorry, this is not exactly on topic. But I really think, that the EU and the US should threaten with war or forced liberation of the people. We can't just watch them die, crying for help.
Click to expand...

Well I don't think we (as in NATO, the EU and US) should just sit back. But we can't just invade either and install a western friendly government. That would probably lead to a Russian invasion of the country from the east and a Korean War type engagement with two opposing client states facing off against each other, backed by the armies of rival, nuclear armed superpowers. But OTOH I do think NATO should move into Ukraine IF Russian moves on the country first, even if the Kremlin uses a "request" for assistance from the Ukrainian government a as pretext for an invasion, rather like how Putin excused sending troops into Georgia, all because of a request from the South Ossetia "government".

Apart from a military conflict, which could easily escalate into a general European conflict that has been brewing for years, the West can only really opt for diplomatic and economic measures; which as I've stated before would have limited effect if Russia gave two fingers to western sanctions and offered Yanukovych a lifeline.

Of course theres also the option of arming the protesters, but that would probably lead to civil war between the pro European west region and the Russophile east.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
War in this particular situation would be an absolutely terrible idea. This is Russia's doorstep, having NATO forces waltzing in to overthrow a regime would be tantamount to bringing back Cold War era relations.
 
O

Oriel

Member
Crab said:
War in this particular situation would be an absolutely terrible idea. This is Russia's doorstep, having NATO forces waltzing in to overthrow a regime would be tantamount to bringing back Cold War era relations.
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It would be Cuban Missile Crisis all over again. There's no way in hell Putin would allow a US friendly government in Kiev, let alone NATO troops in Ukraine.
 
M

maquiladora

Member
Oriel said:
It would be Cuban Missile Crisis all over again. There's no way in hell Putin would allow a US friendly government in Kiev, let alone NATO troops in Ukraine.
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Several former Warsaw Pact countries are now part of NATO, some of which share a border with Russia. Not too long ago a lot of people would have said the Russians would never allow that to happen.
 
O

Oriel

Member
maquiladora said:
Several former Warsaw Pact countries are now part of NATO, some of which share a border with Russia. Not too long ago a lot of people would have said the Russians would never allow that to happen.
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Russia was far weaker back then. Also there's a certain mindset among Russians thst sees Ukraine as "belonging" to them. Call it their manifest destiny if you like. There's a reason why Ukraine is sometimes referred to as Little Russia. Though don't say that to Ukrainians themselves, they find it quite insulting.

Finally Putin is betting big on his grand project, the Eurasian Union, essentially a reformation of the defunct Soviet Union, made up of former Soviet republics. Putin though considers Ukraine the big prize for the union. He already has Belarus, Kazakhstan and Armenia as committed members, but he wants Ukraine to solidify his control over the old Soviet sphere.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
maquiladora said:
Several former Warsaw Pact countries are now part of NATO, some of which share a border with Russia. Not too long ago a lot of people would have said the Russians would never allow that to happen.
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Ukraine and Belarus are rather different to that. They've been a part of Russia since long before the emergence of the Soviet Union, and have far closer ties to the two. Additionally, the Warsaw Pact members which did drift away did so gradually, inch by inch - it's the boiling frog principle. What some posters here seem to be proposing is actual armed intervention.
 
T

TacticalFox88

Banned
Oriel said:
Well I don't think we (as in NATO, the EU and US) should just sit back. But we can't just invade either and install a western friendly government. That would probably lead to a Russian invasion of the country from the east and a Korean War type engagement with two opposing client states facing off against each other, backed by the armies of rival, nuclear armed superpowers. But OTOH I do think NATO should move into Ukraine IF Russian moves on the country first, even if the Kremlin uses a "request" for assistance from the Ukrainian government a as pretext for an invasion, rather like how Putin excused sending troops into Georgia, all because of a request from the South Ossetia "government".

Apart from a military conflict, which could easily escalate into a general European conflict that has been brewing for years, the West can only really opt for diplomatic and economic measures; which as I've stated before would have limited effect if Russia gave two fingers to western sanctions and offered Yanukovych a lifeline.

Of course theres also the option of arming the protesters, but that would probably lead to civil war between the pro European west region and the Russophile east.
Click to expand...

.....

What am I reading?

o_O
 
B

bonesmccoy

Banned
Oriel said:
But OTOH I do think NATO should move into Ukraine IF Russian moves on the country first, even if the Kremlin uses a "request" for assistance from the Ukrainian government a as pretext for an invasion, rather like how Putin excused sending troops into Georgia, all because of a request from the South Ossetia "government".
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1) There's absolutely no political capital available for *any* Western government getting involved with the situation in Ukraine, much less from 'NATO'. None. Zippity zippo.

2) The EU itself found that the Georgians had instigated that conflict. The Russians weren't the aggressors.

Oriel said:
Apart from a military conflict, which could easily escalate into a general European conflict that has been brewing for years, the West can only really opt for diplomatic and economic measures; which as I've stated before would have limited effect if Russia gave two fingers to western sanctions and offered Yanukovych a lifeline.
Click to expand...

Another option: Do nothing, since there's absolutely zero to be gained from Western/NATO involvement/influence in that part of the world.

Oriel said:
Of course theres also the option of arming the protesters, but that would probably lead to civil war between the pro European west region and the Russophile east.
Click to expand...

LOL! No one is arming the protesters.
 
V

Violet_0

Banned
TacticalFox88 said:
.....

What am I reading?

o_O
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third world war yo, you heard it here first


Putin can't exactly cut off the gas supply to Europe without crippling their own economy. Marching troops into the Ukraine would be equally disastrous. On the other hand, the NATO can't act without provoking Moscow either. Not that they'd even consider it currently
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
bonesmccoy said:
Another option: Do nothing, since there's absolutely zero to be gained from Western/NATO involvement/influence in that part of the world.
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...except for the fact there kind of is? The West's interest lies in promulgating the values of the West - the more countries there are that fit the modern, liberal democratic form, the stronger the West becomes as it can expand trade links/reduce confrontational aspects/prevent other geopolitical blocs from expanding/etc. If the West can successfully re-align Ukraine in their favour without acting directly enough to aggravate Russia, that's a huge win.
 
R

Rhaknar

The Steam equivalent of the drunk friend who keeps offering to pay your tab all night.
Watching footage on news, shit seems bad :/ do we have any Ukraine gaffers and are they safe?
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
http://espreso.tv/stream

I'm watching this which seems to just be speeches. I can't understand anything but nationalistic slogans I heard thanks to google translate Glory to Ukraine (славо Україні), things about not taking the amnesty, sovereignty, protest more, revolution plus what I assume are national folk songs

(BTW Ukrainian is a bad ass language it sounds like an Italianized Russian)

Doesn't seem like they're gonna stop anytime soon.
 
O

Oriel

Member
bonesmccoy said:
1) There's absolutely no political capital available for *any* Western government getting involved with the situation in Ukraine, much less from 'NATO'. None. Zippity zippo.

2) The EU itself found that the Georgians had instigated that conflict. The Russians weren't the aggressors.



Another option: Do nothing, since there's absolutely zero to be gained from Western/NATO involvement/influence in that part of the world.



LOL! No one is arming the protesters.
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1. And yet Baroness Ashton and EU diplomats are in Kiev talking with government officials and the opposition. Yep, nothing whatsoever to be gained...... Apart from the highly lucrative possibility of Ukrainian accession to the EU, which would add nearly 50 million people to the Union.

2. Actually the EU determined Georgia acted after months of provocation and terrorist attacks emanating from secessionist South Ossetia, aided by Russian forces in the breakaway province.

3. See point 1. The EU stands to gain massively from Ukrainian entry into its sphere of influence. Russia too stands to gain if it can tempt Ukraine into the newly born Eurasian Union.

And I never said anyone is arming the protesters.
 
E

evil solrac v3.0

Member
Oriel said:
Russia was far weaker back then. Also there's a certain mindset among Russians thst sees Ukraine as "belonging" to them. Call it their manifest destiny if you like. There's a reason why Ukraine is sometimes referred to as Little Russia. Though don't say that to Ukrainians themselves, they find it quite insulting.

Finally Putin is betting big on his grand project, the Eurasian Union, essentially a reformation of the defunct Soviet Union, made up of former Soviet republics. Putin though considers Ukraine the big prize for the union. He already has Belarus, Kazakhstan and Armenia as committed members, but he wants Ukraine to solidify his control over the old Soviet sphere.
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not all. which is why we haev this conflict to begin with.
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
^ missing the awesome soundtrack that this has

http://espreso.tv/stream

I keep checking on the stream every few minutes and just realize that I'm looking at the center of the 8th largest city in Europe and the Capital of a huge country literally burning. I couldn't imagine this happening on the National Mall or Time Square here in the US.
 
Y

Yamauchi

Banned
Kinan said:
1604562_717327878287561_32102774_n.jpg
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What a ridiculous image on so many levels. They could be addressed one by one, but that would be a waste of my time. They wouldn't be taken to heart, anyway.

Anyone with even half a noodle in their skull knows that if neither side gives in there is going to be a bloodbath. And neither side will give in because each represents about half the population of the country. So either the opposition begins to work toward a partition of Ukraine, either fully or in some loose confederation, so that their demands for closer Western European integration can be met, or this is going to continue ... forever?
 
S

Sibylus

Banned
Situation looks ripe to explode, hope the people of Ukraine obtain a government that better represents them on the other side of it.
 
R

remist

Member
Have there been any discussions about interim elections? If they were held would the opposition win clearly or is the political situation still relatively divisive?
 
M

Mr.Mike

Member
Yamauchi said:
Anyone with even half a noodle in their skull knows that if neither side gives in there is going to be a bloodbath. And neither side will give in because each represents about half the population of the country. So either the opposition begins to work toward a partition of Ukraine, either fully or in some loose confederation, so that their demands for closer Western European integration can be met, or this is going to continue ... forever?
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Yanukovich seems to be to proud to admit that he has lost pretty much any legitimacy or mandate he has had in the West, and will probably never be able to recover respect for him and his office even if he managed to break up the protests. Because of this I don't think he will ever consider a partition of Ukraine. Meanwhile the people in the East are probably entirely unsatisfied with how Yanukovich has failed to defuse the situation. If there is to be a resolution to this than Yanukovich will have to be replaced, and will be if he continues to refuse a snap election until the next actual election. Surely his party will force him to step down, or a new party advocating for the East will come around to replace Yanukovich's.

It'll be interesting to see what direction the new government decides to go. I'm not sure the people are entirely willing to consider a partitioning of Ukraine, the talk of partitioning I've heard has come from Westerners. Of course Ukraine doesn't exist in a vacuum, and there will be foreign influence which may or may not support a partition.

Ultimately I only hope that Yanukovich doesn't escalate things too far. Much of the current situation seems to be because of his impatience. The protests were already dying down when he introduced the anti-protest laws and rekindled the situation. Now he seems hellbent on finally stopping the protests, but will probably only succeed in escalating the situation.
 
Y

Yamauchi

Banned
Mr.Mike said:
Yanukovich seems to be to proud to admit that he has lost pretty much any legitimacy or mandate he has had in the West, and will probably never be able to recover respect for him and his office even if he managed to break up the protests. Because of this I don't think he will ever consider a partition of Ukraine. Meanwhile the people in the East are probably entirely unsatisfied with how Yanukovich has failed to defuse the situation. If there is to be a resolution to this than Yanukovich will have to be replaced, and will be if he continues to refuse a snap election until the next actual election. Surely his party will force him to step down, or a new party advocating for the East will come around to replace Yanukovich's.

It'll be interesting to see what direction the new government decides to go. I'm not sure the people are entirely willing to consider a partitioning of Ukraine, the talk of partitioning I've heard has come from Westerners. Of course Ukraine doesn't exist in a vacuum, and there will be foreign influence which may or may not support a partition.

Ultimately I only hope that Yanukovich doesn't escalate things too far. Much of the current situation seems to be because of his impatience. The protests were already dying down when he introduced the anti-protest laws and rekindled the situation. Now he seems hellbent on finally stopping the protests, but will probably only succeed in escalating the situation.
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I do understand that a partition is not supported by any major players in Ukraine and that it has the support of less than 20% of the population. It's not even something I would suggest, but rather that it seems to be a necessity with the current antagonisms.

I admit I do not have a great deal of knowledge on the subject beyond what could be gathered over the ~10 hours of research I have done over the last couple of weeks. What I have read, however, is that many people in the East believe that Yanukovich has been too soft and that they feel tanks should have been sent in from the beginning.
 
B

bonesmccoy

Banned
Crab said:
...except for the fact there kind of is? The West's interest lies in promulgating the values of the West - the more countries there are that fit the modern, liberal democratic form, the stronger the West becomes as it can expand trade links/reduce confrontational aspects/prevent other geopolitical blocs from expanding/etc. If the West can successfully re-align Ukraine in their favour without acting directly enough to aggravate Russia, that's a huge win.
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Ok, I'll clarify.

Yes, there is an interest in rekindling the fairy-tale Bush era foreign policy goals of the early and mid-00s in some Western government groups and amongst excitable journos/pundits.

But no, there is no compelling (ie, something in which the costs/benefits comparison balances toward the former) national or supranational interest for getting involved in what is purely a regional/internal conflict.

And why is it a win to aggravate Russia exactly?

Oriel said:
1. And yet Baroness Ashton and EU diplomats are in Kiev talking with government officials and the opposition. Yep, nothing whatsoever to be gained...... Apart from the highly lucrative possibility of Ukrainian accession to the EU, which would add nearly 50 million people to the Union.
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Let's reset the conversation: Your post was talking about a military intervention, not standard diplomacy-at-work. Neither 'NATO' nor an EU-coalition force is going to *invade* Ukraine on the pretense of pulling it into the EU. This is not the 19th Century.

Oriel said:
2. Actually the EU determined Georgia acted after months of provocation and terrorist attacks emanating from secessionist South Ossetia, aided by Russian forces in the breakaway province.
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Whatever - discussing that conflict is entirely pointless because it tells us NOTHING about the situation in the Ukraine. There are no 20-year break away provinces, there is no bellicose Ukrainian president trying to pick a fight with Russia with the expectation of Western support.

Oriel said:
3. See point 1. The EU stands to gain massively from Ukrainian entry into its sphere of influence. Russia too stands to gain if it can tempt Ukraine into the newly born Eurasian Union.
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And again, this isn't the 19th Century. The EU is not channeling Carl von Clausewitz. Ukraine is not Alsace-Lorraine. There will be no wars fought for Ukraine's shit economy.

Oriel said:
And I never said anyone is arming the protesters.
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True, you merely posed it as an another seemingly feasible option on the table. Which makes me wonder - did you even think about it seriously before suggesting it? Or was the desire here to just simply rattle off whatever hawkish fantasies came to mind?
 
S

Scott32020

Member
The regions are very different, but what just popped into my head was how the Bahranis requested the intervention of the Saudis (officially the Gulf Cooperation Council) when the ruling family (of Sunni origin) was facing mass protests. Any chance Yanukovych requests Russian military intervention if the protests get beyond his control or there is internal fracturing among Ukrainian security forces/military? I don't think there is a cloak of legitimacy like the Saudis/Bahraini ruling family had with the GCC, but I guess Russia could claim its historical responsibilities/claims over the region, etc.

To compare it to another nation recently in revolution (Egypt), does the Ukrainian military have conscripts still? The Wikipedia article said something about how they are phasing it out. From history courses I've taken, drafted armies tend to be unwilling to attack their own civilian population.
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
Scott32020 said:
The regions are very different, but what just popped into my head was how the Qataris requested the intervention of the Saudis (officially the Gulf Cooperation Council) when the ruling family (of Sunni origin) was facing mass protests. Any chance Yanukovych requests Russian military intervention if the protests get beyond his control or there is internal fracturing among Ukrainian security forces/military? I don't think there is a cloak of legitimacy like the Saudis/Qatari ruling family had with the GCC, but I guess Russia could claim its historical responsibilities/claims over the region, etc.
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No. BTW That's literally how WWI started

gutter_trash said:
Europe won't do jack shit because Russia has Western Europe by the balls with the ability of shutting down gas pipelines.
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Yes and cut themselves off from exporting their biggest export?

There won't be a large conflict over this IMO but there is room for the West to play hard ball.
 
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