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[Lime]

Leigh Alexander writes about how the promises of play, how games/tech industry is happy to ally itself with right-winged ideologies, that they don't take into account the experiences of marginalized groups when they design their software, and more importantly, she talks about how she was sounding the alarm of the rise of far-right ideology back when Gamergate were pushing their hate movement, and finally that creators must imagine otherwise when designing spaces for play:

I thought that cheaper tools, a broader range of creator communities, more cultural diversity within the traditional “male power fantasy” environment, and a shift in priorities toward touchable, expressive, and humane types of works would be a net gain for an industry widely misunderstood. Most of all I dared, regularly, to suggest that better treatment of women, both as characters as well as employees and audience members, was one key way toward a more sophisticated and diverse future for the medium.

Despite that reasonable belief, the industry model whereby wealthy white men peddle power fantasies that throttle everyone else’s needs out of consideration remains alive and well. In fact, we can probably expect it to grow, as interest in interactive entertainment bleeds out of the traditional “gaming” space and into other areas of technology such as virtual reality, augmented reality, and artificial intelligence.

These problems spill out into the rest of the world as technology becomes an ever-larger part of more lives. Too many firms relentlessly pursue the next big thing and are not at all interested in learning from the countless reports of women having a bad time on existing platforms, or in testing out the tools or features we ask for.

But why is the industry only concerned with what those who already have so few limits would do if they had none? The oppressive, power-crazed politics of the right, and the sexist, privileged world of entertainment technology go hand in hand—and are holding on ever tighter to each other.

When I was harassed in an attempt to get me to abandon these positions during the embarrassment that was “GamerGate,” everyone told me it was just a radar blip. They said that the hit pieces on Breitbart about me, other women, and progressive voices in technology were just fringe issues. We should not give them any more attention, everyone said. They couldn’t have been more wrong.

Now the CEO of Breitbart, Steve Bannon, is an advisor to incoming President Trump. And in the last few weeks all those same old people, the dross of imageboard culture with their same assembly-line right-wing memes, are back in my Twitter timeline letting me know they “won.” To pretend there has never been any connection between the tech consumers of two years ago, raging on the internet about too many women and people of color in their expensive toylands, and the great upheaval we face in America right now would just be delusional. These people’s fears, their power fantasies, are now steering the world.

Perhaps we can’t change the consumers. But we can — and we must — offer different definitions of power, different fantasies for different people. If we’re creating our dream worlds in these designs and devices, there must be room for the idea that not all of us have the same kinds of dreams. What else might human beings want besides great power, freedom from consequences, and uninterrupted time with fictional women? Those are fine dreams for some, of course, but what about the others — for people whose far-off ideals simply include safety, acceptance, respect?

Creators take note: We don’t need to make yet more realms where the power fantasies of these male consumers are everything. We need more means for the rest of us to escape the one they’ve already made for us.

Much more at the link: https://howwegettonext.com/its-time-for-a-new-kind-of-power-fantasy-a5ff23b2237f#.s73fhxrxh

 

[kamineko]

The excerpts seem pretty spot on. Will read the whole thing.

Remember when she said "gamers are over" and folks had an insurmountable existential crisis?

I think they are the same folks who say that everybody's too sensitive nowadays

 

[CorySchmitz]

Edit: nvm lol

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

The excerpts seem pretty spot on. Will read the whole thing.

Remember when she said "gamers are over" and folks had an insurmountable existential crisis?

I think they are the same folks who say that everybody's too sensitive nowadays

The funny thing is, she was referring to the sterotypes, which are often negative, and still they blew a gasket because, for some reason, they identified with those sterotypes.

 

[YankeeDonB]

Always interested in what Leigh's up to.

This seems a particularly useful question to me:

"Perhaps we can’t change the consumers. But we can — and we must — offer different definitions of power, different fantasies for different people. If we’re creating our dream worlds in these designs and devices, there must be room for the idea that not all of us have the same kinds of dreams. What else might human beings want besides great power, freedom from consequences, and uninterrupted time with fictional women?"

Although I think pursuing this type of design is laudable for social reasons, even leaving those aside it could open the door for a great many meaningful experiences of a sort we don't get much of from most modern games.

 

[yanipheonu]

Honestly it's coming down to male power fantasy simply being overdone. I'm tired of it by now. I'm getting bored of playing as Attractive Brown Haired Man or Guy with Helmet on.

 

[Parapraxis]

Always interested in what Leigh's up to.

This seems a particularly useful question to me:

"Perhaps we can’t change the consumers. But we can — and we must — offer different definitions of power, different fantasies for different people. If we’re creating our dream worlds in these designs and devices, there must be room for the idea that not all of us have the same kinds of dreams. What else might human beings want besides great power, freedom from consequences, and uninterrupted time with fictional women?"

Although I think pursuing this type of design is laudable for social reasons, even leaving those aside it could open the door for a great many meaningful experiences of a sort we don't get much of from most modern games.

I agree, I absolutely want more stories told about non-white males, more variety can only be a good thing.

I don't always want it to be an "optional" thing, the games/stories need to be genuine, crafted around main characters that are diverse and interesting, this is often not fulfilled when they are stuck in the game as a sort of "solution" rather than a fully fleshed out main character.

 

[kamineko]

The funny thing is, she was referring to the sterotypes, which are often negative, and still they blew a gasket because, for some reason, they identified with those sterotypes.

True. It probably would have been easier to think about it for five minutes than to be angry on the Internet for a couple of years

Thinking about it for five minutes didn't seem like a tough road, but I guess that all depends on what one's relationship with "thinking" looks like

 

[YankeeDonB]

I agree, I absolutely want more stories told about non-white males, more variety can only be a good thing. And I don't always want it to be an "optional" thing, the games/stories need to be genuine, crafted around main characters that are diverse and interesting, this is often not fulfilled when they are stuck in the game as a sort of "solution" rather than a fully fleshed out main character.

Yes I'm all for this. But even more broadly, stories and mechanics built around relationships other than physical domination/combat.

Many of my favorite games do this to varying extents - Suikoden (politics), Persona (interpersonal relationships), Okami (nature and habitat degradation/restoration), The Witness (knowledge/learning), but in most cases there's still a combat element worked in. Sometimes I wonder how necessary it is....

 

[FrontalMonk]

Yes I'm all for this. But even more broadly, stories and mechanics built around relationships other than physical domination/combat.

Many of my favorite games do this to varying extents - Suikoden (politics), Persona (interpersonal relationships), Okami (nature and habitat degradation/restoration), The Witness (knowledge/learning), but in most cases there's still a combat element worked in. Sometimes I wonder how necessary it is....

Agreed. Frankly, the Dungeon Crawl RPG aspect of Persona is the worst part of the game by a county mile.

 

[Lime]

The excerpts seem pretty spot on. Will read the whole thing.

Remember when she said "gamers are over" and folks had an insurmountable existential crisis?

I think they are the same folks who say that everybody's too sensitive nowadays

People were falling over each other over being hurt by her criticism of a manufactured consumer stereotype, while industry people were being harassed and terrorized. It really spoke volumes to me back in August 2014 that so many people only had grievances with the criticisms of commodified nerd culture and their own Gamer feelings instead of people getting terrorized by a hate movement.

 

[Brianimaniac]

There are alternatives. Quite a lot of them too. Her premise is false.

 

[Makonero]

People were falling over each other over being hurt by her criticism of a manufactured consumer stereotype, while industry people were being harassed and terrorized. It really spoke volumes to me back in August 2014 that so many people only had grievances with the criticisms of commodified nerd culture and their own Gamer feelings instead of people getting terrorized by a hate movement.

there was a lot of overlap between those crying foul at "gamers are dead" and those that created and engaged in that hate movement

 

[kamineko]

People were falling over each other over being hurt by her criticism of a manufactured consumer stereotype, while industry people were being harassed and terrorized. It really spoke volumes to me back in August 2014 that so many people only had grievances with the criticisms of commodified nerd culture and their own Gamer feelings instead of people getting terrorized by a hate movement.

Yes. At the time, it seemed like a shocking indifference to rhetorical (with implications toward real) violence

I worry that it has become so pervasive (inside and outside of gaming) that we will grow numb to it. I hope I never get used to it or accept it as normal.

 

[Mark L]

"Gamers" are not over. Declaring they were reminds me of people saying Trump was done because of scandal X,Y, or Z. You can't get rid of a thing by wishing it away.

What constitutes a gamer will change, but it will take time and good parenting for the next generation. There is no hope for immediate improvement. I admire her courage and agree with her stance, but I do not think there is anything that can be done about the large number of gamers that behave the way they do now. Their formative years are behind them.

This is enormously frustrating to people because it is unjust. But reality does not now and never has cared about justice. The best thing to do now is to try to limit the damage (for example, by having curated boards like Neogaf) and prepare for the future.

 

[Saucycarpdog]

There are alternatives. Quite a lot of them too. Her premise is false.

Please explain.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

There are alternatives. Quite a lot of them too. Her premise is false.

Her premise is not false, there are not many AAA alternatives and her broader point about gamergaters & other deplorables feeling emboldened is true.

 

[YankeeDonB]

Agreed. Frankly, the Dungeon Crawl RPG aspect of Persona is the worst part of the game by a county mile.

Agreed -- I wonder what the game would feel like (and how successful it would be) w/ that stuff removed though...

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

Here's a related question - JRPGs (and RPGs in general, but especially JRPGs) tend to have a very even male/female audience split, despite being literal power fantasies (the focus of gameplay is to increase your stats to defeat harder enemies). Why is it that the power fantasy presented in JRPGs appeal to both genders in ways that the power fantasy in other genres do not?

Agreed. Frankly, the Dungeon Crawl RPG aspect of Persona is the worst part of the game by a county mile.

Man, I love the dungeon crawl aspect of Persona 3/4. Yeah, the dungeon design is poor, but the combat is tons of fun & it's a blast building the ultimate persona team. And I hear it's even better in P5.

Agreed -- I wonder what the game would feel like (and how successful it would be) w/ that stuff removed though...

How would that be different than your standard visual novel setup?

 

[Kintaro]

Agreed -- I wonder what the game would feel like (and how successful it would be) w/ that stuff removed though...

Would basically be a VN.

 

[Aters]

She needs some FFXIII in her life. jk/

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

There are alternatives. Quite a lot of them too. Her premise is false.

But companies aren't noticing them. Look at the latest AAA releases.

Agreed -- I wonder what the game would feel like (and how successful it would be) w/ that stuff removed though...

It would be the most expensive visual novel.

 

[Griss]

I thought that cheaper tools, a broader range of creator communities, more cultural diversity within the traditional “male power fantasy” environment, and a shift in priorities toward touchable, expressive, and humane types of works would be a net gain for an industry widely misunderstood. Most of all I dared, regularly, to suggest that better treatment of women, both as characters as well as employees and audience members, was one key way toward a more sophisticated and diverse future for the medium.

I thought the same thing.

What happened instead was that game makers realised that the expanded audience of women, kids, minorities etc was on mobile phones, and began making the kinds of games people wanted there. That's where a lot of that creative talent went, and that's where the half of the games industry currently is.

If she's talking exclusively about the AAA console industry then that's another thing entirely but she doesn't say that.

 

[Charamiwa]

Agreed -- I wonder what the game would feel like (and how successful it would be) w/ that stuff removed though...

Something like that.

 

[Monocle]

Bayonetta!

 

[UncleSporky]

I'd like to get a good grip on what constitutes a male power fantasy outside of the obvious examples.

Like, can games be male power fantasies even if the player gets to choose their character or plays as a woman? Is Pokemon ultimately a male power fantasy? Conquest, subjugation, control? Is Mario a male power fantasy?

What are the highest profile successful games that are not male power fantasies on some level? Splatoon?

 

[Cynar]

I'd like to get a good grip on what constitutes a male power fantasy outside of the obvious examples.

Like, can games be male power fantasies even if the player gets to choose their character or plays as a woman? Is Pokemon ultimately a male power fantasy? Conquest, subjugation, control? Is Mario a male power fantasy?

What are the highest profile successful games that are not male power fantasies on some level? Splatoon?

According to the author it feels that way. My problem is they like to pick and choose and then they ignore games that fit their fantasy which usually do very poorly sales wise. I don't know. It's very frustrating to read some of these articles because the bias is so blatant and usually is just a turn off.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

You're not going to get new power fantasies from AAA gaming. You're going to get the same power fantasy reskinned with a woman or minority. What you need is more minorities and women making independent games where you can actually make a new kind of power fantasy without it being required to devolve into your bog standard AAA shooter game once the cutscene is over.

 

[bati]

What are the highest profile successful games that are not male power fantasies on some level? Splatoon?

Probably some kind of sim or management game. Something like Sims, Sim City, etc.

In fact, I had trouble coming up with the type of power fantasy that she'd want because she doesn't hint at anything in her article except, and I quote: "safety, acceptance, respect". Which to me doesn't seem like a power fantasy at all. Control on the other hand fits perfectly and simulation and management games definitely offer that and they can be designed for both genders, depending on the setting they use as backdrop.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

What are the highest profile successful games that are not male power fantasies on some level? Splatoon?

I mean, even Splatoon is a game about defeating others and conquering opponents via exerting your will through violence. It's just very cute about it. It's hard to seperate video games from adversity or aggressive competition because they form the foundation of the entire concept of "game" for a lot of people. Unless your idea of a perfect game is Tetris or a crossword puzzle or something.

 

[SeanBoocock]

I'd like to get a good grip on what constitutes a male power fantasy outside of the obvious examples.

Like, can games be male power fantasies even if the player gets to choose their character or plays as a woman? Is Pokemon ultimately a male power fantasy? Conquest, subjugation, control? Is Mario a male power fantasy?

What are the highest profile successful games that are not male power fantasies on some level? Splatoon?

For high profile AAA alternatives, The Sims is still one of the most all time successful franchises with 100+ million lifetime units sold.

 

[Hashmal_Bringer_of_Order]

Do whatever man, just don't take away what i like. That's pretty much my approach to anything identity related in entertainment.

 

[Delusibeta]

Honestly, I think Lime's being extremely misleading with the quotes in the OP, here. This article is another in a fairly long line of articles that Leigh has wrote over the past eighteen months or so whereby she's expressing her frustration that the wider tech industry is not changing despite social justice's efforts (and the fact that a hell of a lot of social justice activity is happening on San Francisco, the tech industry's doorstep). The difference this time is that with the election of Trump, it's become increasingly clear that it's less "not changing" and more "will never, ever change". I would not be surprised if she quits her role as The Guardian's tech columnist before the end of next year.

 

[Moofers]

Do whatever man, just don't take away what i like. That's pretty much my approach to anything identity related in entertainment.

Yes. Also, I feel like the people who think games are all just designed for "white men" aren't paying enough attention to the industry as a whole. You can't just cite Mass Effect 4 and Halo 5 as being the big case for how badly games need to change. There is already a sweeping movement well underway that is producing all kinds of games for all kinds of people. To just pretend that it doesn't exist seems like you're only doing it so you can write out a big thinkpiece on why Call of Duty is the reason women don't play games or create games when there is ample data out there to suggest otherwise.

 

[UncleSporky]

According to the author it feels that way. My problem is they like to pick and choose and then they ignore games that fit their fantasy which usually do very poorly sales wise. I don't know. It's very frustrating to read some of these articles because the bias is so blatant and usually is just a turn off.

I'm not coming at it from that angle. Not a lot of specific games were mentioned in this particular article, it was more about the industry/gaming space in general. Didn't see any particular bias here.

I'm asking if there's any criteria that most people would agree on. Because this subject usually gets drowned in a sea of comments like "what about games like Mario, those are bright and cheerful and don't feature bald space marines," followed by "no, that's still pretty clearly a male power fantasy," "no it's not," etc.

I know there are some really clear and explicit examples that can be pointed at, but I don't know what you do with the majority of games out there.

I mean, where does No Man's Sky fit? What about Dwarf Fortress or Rimworld? Lego Dimensions?

Assessing games on an individual basis is difficult enough, but I'm not sure anyone will agree on a set of clear guidelines for which games might or might not be a step in the right direction, and which deserve derision.

 

[sasliquid]

Honestly, I think Lime's being extremely misleading with the quotes in the OP, here. This article is another in a fairly long line of articles that Leigh has wrote over the past eighteen months or so whereby she's expressing her frustration that the wider tech industry is not changing despite social justice's efforts (and the fact that a hell of a lot of social justice activity is happening on San Francisco, the tech industry's doorstep). The difference this time is that with the election of Trump, it's become increasingly clear that it's less "not changing" and more "will never, ever change". I would not be surprised if she quits her role as The Guardian's tech columnist before the end of next year.

I don't think it's a question of it never changing but not enough in our lifetime.

I hope she doesn't quit, I like Leigh and all the other indie game/tech journalists revolving around London but she has done professional fiction writing so I'm sure she'd be fine whatever she does.

 

[WarLox]

Her premise is not false, there are not many AAA alternatives and her broader point about gamergaters & other deplorables feeling emboldened is true.

But companies aren't noticing them. Look at the latest AAA releases.

It would be the most expensive visual novel.

The only thing that makes a game "AAA" is the financial backing of the publisher based on the assumption of financial support by the gamer.

If you want see a change, support the type of software that you want to see more of. Instead of spending your time talking about whats wrong with games you want to see less of... spend time talking about games you want to see more of.

At the end of the day, gamer spending controls the AAA market.

 

[Mesoian]

Yes. Also, I feel like the people who think games are all just designed for "white men" aren't paying enough attention to the industry as a whole. You can't just cite Mass Effect 4 and Halo 5 as being the big case for how badly games need to change. There is already a sweeping movement well underway that is producing all kinds of games for all kinds of people. To just pretend that it doesn't exist seems like you're only doing it so you can write out a big thinkpiece on why Call of Duty is the reason women don't play games or create games when there is ample data out there to suggest otherwise.

While this is true that movement does not and will not perforate the AAA development cycle.

We're at a point where, "if you don't like it, stick to indies" isn't a real conversation anymore when we see the traditional structure of AAA development get increasingly expensive while sales continue to dwindle. There gets to be a point where you have to start putting the big games under the microscope instead of handwaving it off and saying, "oh but last year there were a few interesting games that didn't do these traditional male bravado power fantasy driven stories, go play those."

Honestly, I think Lime's being extremely misleading with the quotes in the OP, here. This article is another in a fairly long line of articles that Leigh has wrote over the past eighteen months or so whereby she's expressing her frustration that the wider tech industry is not changing despite social justice's efforts (and the fact that a hell of a lot of social justice activity is happening on San Francisco, the tech industry's doorstep). The difference this time is that with the election of Trump, it's become increasingly clear that it's less "not changing" and more "will never, ever change". I would not be surprised if she quits her role as The Guardian's tech columnist before the end of next year.

Even if that's the case, not that it has anything to do with the actual meat of the article, that still doesn't mean she's wrong, it just means that the writing on the wall 18 months ago is now scrolled in bold red ink in front of all of our faces. It's up to us to decide if we care or not.

But yes, this is totally an opinion piece on the state of games in our new world.

 

[DocSeuss]

This is not a very good article. It doesn't say much beyond the second to last paragraph, and it doesn't make a compelling argument for that beyond "it should happen."

 

[Tain]

I was expecting much more of a proposal.

 

[Delusibeta]

I don't think it's a question of it never changing but not enough in our lifetime.

I hope she doesn't quit, I like Leigh and all the other indie game/tech journalists revolving around London but she has done professional fiction writing so I'm sure she'd be fine whatever she does.

I'll be frank: the most likely scenario is that the Trump administration is going to be rolling back all progress the social justice movement has achieved in the US over the last four years or so. Considering how incredibly US-centric the tech industry is, I do think they will follow suit.

As for Leigh, I see a lot a parallels between this article and the article she wrote when she decided to quit Offworld. I would not be too surprised if her frustration at the lack of social justice's progress in the tech industry, and the high probability that any movement in the near future will be backwards, will prompt her to leave.

 

[Mesoian]

Do whatever man, just don't take away what i like. That's pretty much my approach to anything identity related in entertainment.

Honestly, this statement is so silly. It's like saying, "you can have your romcoms and your documentaries, as long as you leave my big budget blockbusters alone" on the eve of a new Star Wars movie being released.

Traditional games aren't going anywhere. The problem is, is things keep going the way they are, they're going to be the only type of games that get the big budgets year by year. You say, "I don't want the things I like to go away", but that mentality is the same shit driving all the changes behind stuff like Dead Rising 4, the panicked reaction of chasing the dollars all the way to the drain, invariably giving you the thing you didn't want, but rather something that vaguely resembles something everyone ELSE wants. Everything is a hero shooter. Everything is driven by gambling based microtransactions. Everything has a 9 month online shelf life.

One of her big points is that you should be demanding more from your big budget games than a 4 hour, poorly written campaign and multiplayer mode that is decidedly similar to the previous years' entry that will lonely be viable for less than a year.

I'll be frank: the most likely scenario is that the Trump administration is going to be rolling back all progress the social justice movement has achieved in the US over the last four years or so. Considering how incredibly US-centric the tech industry is, I do think they will follow suit.

As for Leigh, I see a lot a parallels between this article and the article she wrote when she decided to quit Offworld. I would not be too surprised if her frustration at the lack of social justice's progress in the tech industry, and the high probability that any movement in the near future will be backwards, will prompt her to leave.

Leigh is stubborn. It's why we need her around.

This is not a very good article. It doesn't say much beyond the second to last paragraph, and it doesn't make a compelling argument for that beyond "it should happen."

I mean...it should.

But then, Titanfall 2 should have been released in March.

We should make the drinking water in Flynn, Mi potable again.

We should stop macing native americans who are trying to protect their water from an oil pipeline we don't actually need.

We shouldn't stop writing about what should happen just because we don't have a 10 step process of how to get there.

 

[Servbot24]

I agree, I absolutely want more stories told about non-white males, more variety can only be a good thing.

I don't always want it to be an "optional" thing, the games/stories need to be genuine, crafted around main characters that are diverse and interesting, this is often not fulfilled when they are stuck in the game as a sort of "solution" rather than a fully fleshed out main character.

I'm all for this. Diversity as an option is not adequate. Any game where the player is asked to design the character, or design the quest, or imagine that there's a story, etc, is going to suffer. Games need to be designed with intentionality. Ruthless focus. No compromise in achieving an artistic and cultural vision.

 

[Delusibeta]

Leigh is stubborn. It's why we need her around.

I disagree. If she was stubborn, Offworld would still be a thing.

 

[DealWithIt]

Remember when she said "gamers are over" and folks had an insurmountable existential crisis?

I think they are the same folks who say that everybody's too sensitive nowadays

Exactly. Welcome to the politics of white male victimization. "Feminists and SJWs are too sensitive and they are bad. By the way, their views hurt our feelings. It's unfair."

 

[Hashmal_Bringer_of_Order]

Honestly, this statement is so silly. It's like saying, "you can have your romcoms and your documentaries, as long as you leave my big budget blockbusters alone" on the eve of a new Star Wars movie being released.

Traditional games aren't going anywhere. The problem is, is things keep going the way they are, they're going to be the only type of games that get the big budgets year by year. You say, "I don't want the things I like to go away", but that mentality is the same shit driving all the changes behind stuff like Dead Rising 4, the panicked reaction of chasing the dollars all the way to the drain, invariably giving you the thing you didn't want, but rather something that vaguely resembles something everyone ELSE wants. Everything is a hero shooter. Everything is driven by gambling based microtransactions. Everything has a 9 month online shelf life.

One of her big points is that you should be demanding more from your big budget games than a 4 hour, poorly written campaign and multiplayer mode that is decidedly similar to the previous years' entry that will lonely be viable for less than a year.



Leigh is stubborn. It's why we need her around.

But i already get that, from my perspective. I rarely play indies and still don't experience what you're describing, so I don't agree with that premise.

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

Looking forward to reading this tonight. I love her work, she's great.

This is not a very good article. It doesn't say much beyond the second to last paragraph, and it doesn't make a compelling argument for that beyond "it should happen."

Check out her Let's Plays on her YouTube channel, you'll get exactly where she's coming from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8Y1_H3o_oY

 

[Mesoian]

I disagree. If she was stubborn, Offworld would still be a thing.

Well, being stubborn and being stubborn with no funding are two different issues to deal with.

You can be the world's greatest opinion writer, but you still gotta eat.

But i already get that, from my perspective. I rarely play indies and still don't experience what you're describing, so I don't agree with that premise.

I mean that's also a big one of those points. You literally don't know what you're missing because, for whatever reason, you're complacent with what these annual blockbusters give you, even when they are diminishing in quality year after year though you're paying more, which, again, only compounds how silly the idea that those games are going anywhere, despite a call for change.

You're catered to. Don't worry, you're good. This is more about the people who have done that for the better part of two decades and are looking for something different, but on the same sort of scale.

 

[Mesoian]

.

 

[Alex]

Agreed -- I wonder what the game would feel like (and how successful it would be) w/ that stuff removed though...

Cutting the RPG part out and turning it into a high school VN? It would deservedly crater compared to what it is now.

A lot of people really like the dungeon crawling and Persona building.