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Let's talk about Grand Strategy.

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Is there something similar to a "play by email" option due to how long games can take?
No, that would be unmanageable. People simply play together in real time, and games are saved to be resumed at designated play times. For example, both the EUIV and CK2 MP games on GAF were played on two days of every week, each session lasting 2 or so hours.

Can you pause the action at anytime?
Yes, although usually rules are established for pausing so the game can move along at a quicker pace than it would in single player.
 

MikeDip

God bless all my old friends/And god bless me too, why pretend?
Yep, love these.

I keep trying to get into Europa Universalis but Crusader Kings 2 keeps calling me back. I just like the focus on dynasty and the personalities that shines though. Such an incredible game. I wish I was better at it though, choosing marriages for claims is so hard for me.
 

Saganator

Member
Arumba is a pretty decent Let's Player who plays a lot of CK2 and EU, I learned a lot from watching him play. I am no means an expert, but he definitely made everything less daunting. I wouldn't recommend watching an episode in the middle of a series, though, as he blows through the menus pretty quick. If you look in his playlists, there are some tutorial type episodes, and he usually explains things a bit more the first few episodes of a series, especially if it's a new DLC or game.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
I never expected to like these games as much as I do but I find it hard to play other single player games now. All I can think of when I'm playing them is "I wish I was forging claims on Ile-de-France".

Between DOTA 2 and EUIV, I have very little gaming time these days. A single player game has to be truly stellar for me to want to play it over EUIV, and at the end of the day, it's EUIV that I return to time and time again.
 

nacimento

Member
Awesome games. Some of my most played games ever. Only problem is sometimes when patches hit and screw you over, like now having 200 direct vassals too much in my glorious Wendish World-Empire in CK II.

Looking forward to Hearts of Iron 4, since it will be the first I'll play from the series.
 

Iastfan112

Neo Member
If you pick up the CKII, after you've played for awhile, look for a DLC sale. A fair amount of it is fairly niche but The Old Gods(playable pagans and earlier start date) and Sword of Islam(playable muslims) expand the game in significant ways.

Here's the rest of the major DLC(minus Charlemagne which I have not played) in descending order of worth:

Legacy of Rome- allow retinues which is nice as well as some fun Roman empire stuff but isn't as necessary. It is however quite cheap and I would say its worth it.

The Republic- Allows you to mess with well, republics. Its fun but there's not a lot of them so this is more of a wait til you've exhausted other play opportunities buy.

Sons of Abraham- Fleshes out some religious stuff and the Jewish lords but is pretty skippable.

Rajas of India- Lets you mess around in India but its pretty pricey for something that has next to no influence on most of the map.

Sunset Invasion- equivalent of Mongol invasion for Western Europe. Pretty gimmicky.

Ruler Designer- craft your own ruler. Feels like a feature that should be in the base game.

EUIV Converter- Patches break this dlc all the time. Concept of taking your world state into the next game is nice but it just doesn't work well enough to recommend.
 
with cool tactical combat :D

either space battles or EU: Rome 2 por favor

In the 4X space we have Gal Civ 3 coming soonish anyway.

I play board wargames, and don't have too much trouble with those because I can grok through them with a rulebook in hand.

I have played two hours of Europa Universalis IV, and the tutorials did nothing to help the learning process. Any good links for let's plays geared towards learning the game?

Thanks!

The main issue is that every major new DLC changes the core mechanics to some degree. With Art of War, we now have serious changes to both the map and a lot of combat / vassal / peace deal mechanics.

So I can show you great LPs for learning how the game was near launch, but not as much for what has come out now.

That's the same issue with the tutorials, lol. For some paradox games, patches actually break the tutorials in some ways.
 

ExVicis

Member
I always find it really funny that people see Victoria as complex and insane with it's gameplay mechanics but that was the first Paradox game I ever played, so it really has a special place in my heart.

Anyways, could we mention or discuss some of the cool mods and standalone game modes? One of the obvious ones being of course that glorious Kaiserreich mod for Hearts of Iron and Darkest Hour.
 

Rockk

Member
I thought about buying Crusader Kings 2 during the Steam Autumn Sale but decided against it. Not sure if I really have the time or commitment to spend on it. Maybe during the Christmas Sale I'll buy it and learn it over the winter break.
 

Xeteh

Member
These games make me feel so incredibly dumb, it makes me sad. I've messed around a bit with CK2 and I reaaaally like the game but I don't know what I'm doing 99% of the time. Someone from Reddit even offered to coach me in a MP match and after that I still felt like a total moron.

I definitely want to give it another go, I think the game is brilliant but I might have to stick with games more suited for special people like myself. Hell, I even find myself brute forcing my way through games like Civ. I no think good.
 

Keikaku

Member
Amazing genre of games and easily some of the best games with the best value for money out there. Hundreds if not thousands of hours of entertainment.

Way too much content to be Destiny
ljHjaS9.gif
 

Anjelus_

Junior Member
I started a blind campaign of CK2 a few months ago without having played it before or knowing much about it. I made myself the a Duke in Anglo-Saxon England, the Duke of East Anglia, in 1066. My brother was King Harold II and together we repelled the Norman invasion.

350 years later, his descendant is an English King ruling over the kingdoms of Jerusalem and England. There's tension between the kingdoms on cultural and religious lines (there are still plenty of Anglo Saxons, many people have converted to Islam, etc), and I'm expecting another violent civil war within a generation.

The story of how that happened is one complicated, multi-generational story of civil wars, crusades, catastrophes, plagues, etc etc etc. My favorite part of the game was where Jerusalem broke away from England, then 50 years later fought a bloody war of reunification with the mother country. Good times!

It's been quite a ride.
 
These games make me feel so incredibly dumb, it makes me sad. I've messed around a bit with CK2 and I reaaaally like the game but I don't know what I'm doing 99% of the time. Someone from Reddit even offered to coach me in a MP match and after that I still felt like a total moron.

I definitely want to give it another go, I think the game is brilliant but I might have to stick with games more suited for special people like myself. Hell, I even find myself brute forcing my way through games like Civ. I no think good.

Don't expect to understand it all after a couple of hours.

The learning curve in these games is longer than the runtime of most games.
 

espher

Member
A friend of mine tried to get me to play Victoria II.

I went in completely blind.

After seven hours across two days, I left knowing nothing.

Some day I will try again.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
I'd say 50-100 hours before you "get" the game.

Another hundred or so before you can actually start exploiting mechanics.
 

Xeteh

Member
Don't expect to understand it all after a couple of hours.

The learning curve in these games is longer than the runtime of most games.

Yeah, for sure. It just hits me with that dread of "I'm never going to understand this" and then I get psyched out. I will definitely give CK2 another go, though. It is such a cool game.
 

Aeqvitas

Member
I got into CK2 first. Then I got EUIV and it quickly became my most played steam game.

Hours melt away without notice.

I really enjoy being minor powers and working on the achievements.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
500 hours into Hearts of Iron 3 and I still don't understand the mechanical quirks of the supply system.

Okay, maybe that only applies to EU4.

Double that for CK2, and maybe double that again for HoI3?
 
Okay, maybe that only applies to EU4.

Double that for CK2, and maybe double that again for HoI3?

Lol, it wasn't supposed to be a correction. It just depends for each game. You can do well in them without understanding all of the systems properly. I know that sometimes I have too many units, and that invading Russia always strains the supply system to the breaking point. But sometimes weird stuff happens and I just don't know why.

OTOH, I've got the invasion of mainland Europe down to a tea. I've solo'd the axis as the UK multiple times.

Hearts of Iron 4 better be amazing or heads will roll.
 

Ceallach

Smells like fresh rosebuds
The Gundam Gihren's Greed grand strategy games are favorites of mine. Grand strategy in the Universal Century

Menace_of_Axis_V_PS2.jpg


Very cool feeding the war machine from the factory floor on up.
 

steelersrock01

Neo Member
CK2 has turned into probably my favorite game of all time. It's perfect for anyone who enjoys history and wondering how the world could have played out differently. Paradox's DLC policy can seem a bit daunting as with each major expansion they release a couple art packs and a music pack, but only the expansions are necessary (and some of those aren't), and with the steam winter sale coming up anyone who enjoys the base game should pick them up at 75% off.

For anyone new to the game, don't play the in-game tutorial. I don't think it's been updated with the game. Jump into a 1066 start playing as a duke in Ireland. It'll be super slow paced and let you learn slowly. Also watch some of Arumba's tutorial videos on Youtube.

The Game of Thrones mod is excellent, and was just updated, but I haven't got a chance to play the new version. There's a new CK2 patch coming tomorrow with the new DLC so it may be a while before the mod is compatible again.

I was never able to get into EU4 as much as CK2. The more personal nature of CK2 appealed to me more, as EU4 feels more like a "paint the map" game whereas CK2 is more open ended.
 
I'm probably 60-70 hrs into CK II and I have no fucking clue what I'm doing.

I spend all my time arranging marriages and raising awesome heirs which amount to nothing because I don't understand claims and I suck at diplomacy.

One of these days I'll try to learn what the hell is going on
 
I'd say 50-100 hours before you "get" the game.

Another hundred or so before you can actually start exploiting mechanics.

This jibes with my experience, 21 hours in CK2 and 30 in EU4, and I would say that I've barely a clue on how to play. I have more success with EU4, I've fought and won wars but I'm completely baffled by the trading system.

I must have started 10 or so games of CK2 as some random Irish count, but I can never seem to do anything. I love the concept of CK2, but I just can't get it.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
I've fought and won wars but I'm completely baffled by the trading system.

Have NO fear. I wrote up a short guide to the trading system for some of the EUIV MP players.

I'm no expert, but the trading system boils down to four things, Trade Nodes, Trade Value, Trade Power and Merchants. I won't talk about modifiers here because there are a billion different kinds of Trade modifiers influencing every little thing and there's no point in keeping track of all of it.

A Trade Node is a region of provinces, like a cultural region or a colonial region, only it never changes throughout the game. A node does not belong to any single province, even though the trade filter makes it look like that. Nodes are connected via directional paths indicating which way trade is flowing through the world. Trade flows from "upstream" nodes toward "downstream" nodes, as would water down a river.

A node's Trade Value is the amount of ducats inside that node, and is determined by the Trade Value of all the provinces within the node (Local value), and the Trade being directed towards it from upstream nodes (Incoming value). Trade Value for a province is calculated from the production of a good (like Naval Supplies, Wheat, Slaves, etc) times the price of that good on the global market + modifiers from the owner country.

Note that gold producing provinces provide no Trade Value whatsoever. That gold is converted directly into ducats for the owning country. They're extremely valuable, but exist entirely outside the trade system.

A country's Trade Power in a node is determined by how many provinces they own in that node, their Light Ships protecting trade in that node, and their Merchants present in that node. Trade Power is how much influence a country has on a node, and is relative between all countries with any Trade Power in that node. So if Country A has 900 Trade Power in Antwerpen, and Country B has 100 Trade Power in Antwerpen, Country A will have 90% of the Trade Power there, vs Country B's 10%.

Trade Power is the number most subject to player manipulation. With Trade Power and a Merchant in a node, you can do one of two things.

Collect from Trade: Collecting will give you a part of the value that exists in the node proportional to the amount of power you have in that node. You automatically collect from your Main Node, which is the node in which your country's Trading Port resides. By default, this is the same as your Capital. But after 1.6, Paradox gave us the ability to change it without changing our Capital. When you put a Merchant in your Main Node on top of the default collection, you merely increase income from that node by 10%. When you collect from any other node, however, you take a 50% penalty. Example:

- The Venice Trade Node has a value of 20 ducats.
- Venice has 75% of the Trade Power in the Venice Trade Node.
- Milan has 25% of the Trade Power in the Venice Trade Node.
- Both Venice and Milan are Collecting from the Venice Trade Node.
- Before income modifiers, Venice will gain 15 ducats per month and Milan will gain 5 ducats per month.

Transfer Trade Power (aka "Steering"): Steering using a merchant will allow you to direct a portion of all the existing trade in that node towards a downstream node of your choice. In the Trade filter, these are the arrows and checkmarks you see on some nodes. Ticking one of the routes means "direct trade towards the next node in this path". If you have any Trade Power at all in a node, you will automatically force some trade downstream, but it will be divided evenly among all trade paths that lead toward your nodes. To actually steer it down a particular path, you need to send a Merchant to it. Steering benefits from Trade Power just like Collecting.

- The London Trade Node has a value of 10 ducats.
- Britain et al. has 60% of the Trade Power in the London Trade Node.
- Burgundy has 40% of the Trade Power in the London Trade Node.
- Britain et al. are all Collecting from the London Trade Node.
- Burgundy is steering trade towards Antwerpen.
- Before income modifiers, Britain et al. will gain 6 ducats per month.
- Burgundy will send 4 ducats downstream (as Outgoing value) towards Antwerpen.

How do you determine what is the best way to steer trade and divide up your Light Ship fleet? Well, it's simply a matter of solving a multivariable equation. If you're good at math, I'm sure you could calculate the absolute maximum amount of Trade Income you can achieve at any given time. For the rest of us, however, this is not an easy task, so here's how I do it:

The first thing you should focus on is getting high Trade Power in your Main Node. In the early game, this is most easily achieved with a large fleet of Light Ships. Most Light Ships will pay for their own maintenance unless the node you're in is very poor. You can also build Trade buildings in your provinces, but, generally, these aren't very efficient except on extremely trade-rich nodes. Some provinces have modifiers called "Trade Estuary" or "Important Trading Center", and these will give the province a massive boost in trade power. It may be worth it to build some trade buildings there, but in general trade buildings are the weakest of the lot. The only exception to this are landlocked nodes, which cannot be influenced by Light Ships at all. So trade buildings are the only other way to increase your power in a node without conquest/diplomacy.

After a few decades of conquest and when you've taken over more provinces in your Main Node, you can afford to send a part of your fleet upstream to direct more trade towards your home node. I determine when it's a good time to do this by splitting my trading fleet in half, with one half protecting trade in my Main Node, and one half protecting trade in an upstream node where I have a Merchant steering trade. If I see my trade income go up, then I'll keep the current configuration. If not, I'll merge the two fleets again and wait for more conquests. You can see details on your trading in the Trade tab, and your income as a pie chart. Mouse over it to see the projected income for the next month.

Once a century or two pass by and I have almost all the provinces in my Main Node, this is where the real trading game begins. I find the path that cuts through as many rich nodes as possible, focusing on ones where I already have conquests or colonies. Then I station a Merchant in each of those nodes, forming a chain from my Main Node to some far off overseas node. Wherever I can choke off trade from some rival countries, I will send a fleet of Light Ships there. Every Merchant steering in a node will boost the value of all trade being directed through that path. It benefits you more to have them all in a chain formation rather than, say, a star formation.

As you acquire Merchants and increase your Naval force limit, you should experiment with your Light Ship/Merchant configuration as I described above to maximize your trade profits. I tend to work in binary, splitting my fleets in half for each separate node I want to control and then shuffling them around to find a good, if less-than-optimal configuration.

Why not still focus on my Main Node? It's because Light Ships don't actually produce money in a node, they just give you more access to money that's already there. Say I have 90% Trade Power in my Main Node. With my entire fleet protecting trade there, I can go up to 99%. This will only give me a 10% boost to income. However, if I direct more trade towards that node, I can potentially get far more than a 10% income boost, especially if I have rivals upstream who are cutting off the value being sent downstream with their own trading fleet.

In the last MP game, Kab and I had almost total control over the Gulf of Lawrence and Chesapeake Bay nodes. However, because Portugal has some massive steering bonuses, 10 ducats were still being directed from Chesapeake Bay towards Sevilla. Chesapeake Bay was also Kab's Main Node. If I directed more trade towards Gulf of Lawrence, I would be eating into his profits. Therefore, I asked him to move his Trading Port to Gulf of Lawrence, and then I sent a fleet of 10 Light Ships to Chesapeake Bay to reduce the value Portugal was steering away to 4 ducats resulting in 6 more ducats that were shared between me and Kabouter.

Everything you need to know to get started on your Venetian trading hegemony.
 

The Llama

Member
500 hours into Hearts of Iron 3 and I still don't understand the mechanical quirks of the supply system.

200 hours into EU4 and I have no real idea how the trade system works. I just ignore it (which is easy, because I never really play as OPM lol).

Edit: LMAO and OF COURSE the post above me describes the trade system in detail. Of course.
 

Striek

Member
I have had both the wikipedia entry and fan-wiki for CK2 bookmarked for some time, apparently at two seperate points I was reading about the game and decided to try it out in the future.

I've been hesitant because it seems like the games enjoyment hinges on you been pretty knowledgable about EU history, not just the big stuff a random Aus HS curriculum would teach you but the indepth individual countries histories and political intrigue going way back. Stuff I do enjoy reading on a random wiki unscheduled timesink spree, but I don't generally make a point to commit to memory .

So I guess assuage my fears that this is only for history buffs, and then erm, explain the best way to get into the game (ie. game/DLC/)?
 

ExVicis

Member
I'd say 50-100 hours before you "get" the game.

Another hundred or so before you can actually start exploiting mechanics.

That's about right, or 1 to 2 attempts at being a faction and failing miserably crashing and burning.
 

The Llama

Member
I have had both the wikipedia entry and fan-wiki for CK2 bookmarked for some time, apparently at two seperate points I was reading about the game and decided to try it out in the future.

I've been hesitant because it seems like the games enjoyment hinges on you been pretty knowledgable about EU history, not just the big stuff a random Aus HS curriculum would teach you but the indepth individual countries histories and political intrigue going way back. Stuff I do enjoy reading on a random wiki unscheduled timesink spree, but I don't generally make a point to commit to memory .

So I guess assuage my fears that this is only for history buffs, and then erm, explain the best way to get into the game (ie. game/DLC/)?

Eh, I disagree. I think it really helps to have SOME background knowledge, just so you know what countries are powerful, which are weak, etc., but otherwise you're basically writing your own history so you don't need to worry about it much.
 

lord

Member
I was really enjoying a play through as Spain, I launched a caravel across the pond and reached La Española, soon after I found myself in the island of Cuba. I docked my ship and waited for reinforcements, when they arrived I sent two convoys to the Yucatan peninsula, one of them was destroyed by the Maya, unfortunately it was the one carrying my conquistador, after that the fog of war was impermeable. I quickly tried to build and send more conquistadores to the new world but war with France was raging, I finally recovered my lost territory, only to realize what a pyrrhic victory I had acquired, confused, my resources depleted and my morale low, I quit the game and never came back to it.

I really do need to play that game again, EU2 btw
 
So I guess assuage my fears that this is only for history buffs, and then erm, explain the best way to get into the game (ie. game/DLC/)?

History goes off the rail hardcore like 10-15 years into any given game. So while having an interest in history might push you to trying the game or playing around with various fantasy historical scenarios in your head, it's absolutely not a game just for history or geography buffs.

As to what DLCs you want,

Base game
Sword of Islam
Legacy of Rome
The Republic
The Old Gods
Rajas of India

and Charlemagne if it goes on sale. The base game is a fine place to start though to learn.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Yes. Although obviously history buffs will get a lot of more out of these kinds of games, the games still have their own merits, especially for the strategically inclined.

And, personally, I gained an increase interest in certain countries' histories after playing so much EUIV.
 
Would Koei games like Nobunaga's Amibiton, Sangokushi, and Gemfire count here? They pioneered grand strategy mechanics well before anyone, in addition to increasing the scale of strategy games relative to all but the most complex mainframe games.

This was my first thought. I remember when Koei made strategy games. Before Dynasty Warriors.
 

Llyranor

Member
I love Paradox' grand strategy games (and hate their bugs hahaha - I refuse to play them until the 'Complete Edition' bundles come out).

My first gateway drug was EU3, which I completely addicted to (in co-op).

CK2 kind of ruined the EU series for me, though. I absolutely love the extra layer of political scheming involved. And if I still want to play as a nation, I can just play as a king or whatever (and protect my throne/ensure my lineage survives). I really want a CK-type game during EU's time period.

My current addiction is HOI3. I actually had bought it on release day, but it turned out to be unplayable because of the braindead AI. Many xpacs later, my co-op buddy and me are finally giving it another try, and it actually works now! We're playing as UK/France right now, and fighting along 3 fronts right now. Fending off Germany in Belgian (connecting to the Maginot line which is heavily undermanned but holding at the moment), a diversionary landing in Sicily to draw some pressure off the other fronts. And a direct attack into Italy from the NW (south of the Alps) after they've pulled off some units to reinforce Sicily. French tanks doing their own blitzkrieg down there, only to run of them and being counterattacked by German armored divisions, ruh-oh!
 

The Llama

Member
Anyone else have a favorite country to play as? I've probably played (to completion) at least 3 or 4 Byzantium games in EU4. I've never actually done it, but its always my goal to try to recreate the Roman Empire. One day... I will.
 

Striek

Member
Ok well I may as well dive in and see for myself :) Is there a good place to buy atm or should I wait for the Steam sale? $40 for the base game is a tad steep.
 

fedexpeon

Banned
I love and hate this genre.
So many hours wasted which will lead to massive backlogs.

The feeling of creating your own kingdom/dynasty is enjoyable, but the best part is wiping out other races from the face of the world and watching everything burns while your empire keeps assimilating and corrupting everyone with your warmongering behavior.

Yeah, this game will make others think you are a racist/warhawk if you try to explain it without context.
Even with context, people will question your morality.
But I bet if Hilter were able to play a grand strategy game, WW2 wouldn't have happened.
 

Shengar

Member
500 hours into Hearts of Iron 3 and I still don't understand the mechanical quirks of the supply system.

When my friends, veteran of EUIV and CKII said that HoI3 is for the craziest of grand strategy player, they weren't kidding it seems O__O


Also I've interest in Victoria II for a long time, already bought it but I'm still waiting for the moment and will to play it. But I never played grand strategy before extensively besides modernized Japan and undeliberately declare war on Great Britain in 4 hours of play. Should I continue playing Victoria II, or opt for something else instead?
 
When my friends, veteran of EUIV and CKII said that HoI3 is for the craziest of grand strategy player, they weren't kidding it seems O__O


Also I've interest in Victoria II for a long time, already bought it but I'm still waiting for the moment and will to play it. But I never played grand strategy before extensively besides modernized Japan and undeliberately declare war on Great Britain in 4 hours of play. Should I continue playing Victoria II, or opt for something else instead?

You may as well continue with Vicky if you know it somewhat, but if you want to branch out then you can't go wrong. I would not recommend HoI3 as your next game though.
 
I've only played EU3-4 and CK2. I can't claim to be good at any of them (even after hundreds of hours), but in some ways that makes me even more confident in saying that the learning curve should not be an obstacle to anyone trying them out. They're sandbox-style games. If you suffer a setback in your plans to unify Italy, you can shift focus to some other, equally-interesting objective. There's never a shortage of fun things to try. And sure, the mechanics can be impenetrable at first (and long, long, thereafter), but I find that if you just try out a couple of games, you start to get a feel for different mechanics as they become salient.
 
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