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Lots of non-games winning GOTY...

This is reductionistic as fuck. The semiotic layer of a game has meaning and importance, even in regards to game mechanics. The colors of the enemies in Mario indicate danger, the carpets in Journey indicates flight, etc. Changing up the audio-visual characteristics have a massiv impact on how you understand and interpret the game and its mechanics, so changing them up would result in a completely different game. Even Mario.
I think you know what I mean and you're being overly literal to try to prove one point when I'm tackling another. The joy of movement in a Mario game is light years ahead of any interactive content in Journey. The part that you play in Mario will age far better. The air control, traction, momentum, and act of skillfully threading past enemies and obstacles while navigating platforms still holds up well years after SMB came out. I can't imagine Journey continuing to be relevant that same period of time down the road, when people will have long since played other "experiences" and Journey's, well, "journey" will be so well-known that the gameplay portion will lose appeal, because it was the audiovisual component carrying it moreso than the part you play in the game. :)
 
If you don't agree with a particular critic's choice, then just don't follow them. This goes the same for reviews. The range of video game tastes is very wide and that is reflected in the large variety of GOTY selections at the end of the year.

I mean, I agree with your premise at a personal level (if you best advocate your game as "an experience you have to play through yourself to understand" to me, it's the ultimate turnoff) but putting a overly narrow definition on GOTY-and by extension, what is critically acclaimed and what is not-doesn't really do the hobby any benefits. You might find that down the road games you do enjoy have benefited from ideas cross-pollinated from games you don't like that received critical recognition.
 
I'm willing to argue Mario -would- still be fun without its art or music -- unlike Journey. Skillfully threading your way in and out of moving enemies and obstacles across various types of platforms with the delicate momentum and pinpoint-precise air control and traction of Mario would still make the act of blazing through a level just as thrilling with lame graphics as it would with good graphics. (And frankly, some people would argue the audiovisual already sucks as of the NSMB series)

Again, what you PLAY is paramount. :)
Yes it would be. Moving around the world of Journey is a joy. While its not a greatly challenging games, I felt it was one of the best controlling all year
 
I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but I really must disagree with your opinion, OP.

Games have been many things for a while, but they're becoming less, not more.

The first question game developers should ask themselves is not "How do I fit this into a shooter", but rather "How do I make something truly unique?"

When I first picked up a controller, it was to play Super Mario Brothers. Over the next 15 years, I owned nothing but Nintendo consoles. This means I played platformers, action/adventure games, and other titles that were accessible and enjoyable. These games were traditional, and "games" in every sense of the word. I think you'll agree that I did a lot of running, jumping, sword-slashing, and occasionally shooting. Everyone remembers with rose-colored glasses the games of their childhood, and these Nintendo games meant a lot to me.

When I became an adult, I learned about this genre called the "adventure", something which had eluded me my whole life. Apparently people like Tim Schafer had been entertaining people with characters and puzzles, but no jumping. No running. No shooting. How could this be? You're just...thinking, and not in the Tetris puzzle-solving sense. Your enjoyment comes entirely from a set of scripted events that you enact by putting a thing in the right place. What's more is that you usually can't die in these games. This may be a gross oversimplification of adventure games, but it will do for now.

So I learned about different genres. So what right? Well, as I was talking to people raised on the PC I also learned about simulations. There were games in which your goal was to create something, and maintain it over a period of time. Perhaps a city, ship, rollercoaster, or farm would fall under your control. Again, in many of these games, you don't lose. You only adapt.

Finally, before I knew the dreaded word "non-game", I played a 2002 Gamecube game called Animal Crossing. This is a game in which you make friends and similarly carry out tasks that are centered around communication. These tasks include running errands, sending letters, and simple commerce. The interesting thing about Animal Crossing is that not only is there no way to lose, but there is no challenge of any kind. The game cannot get harder. Despite this fact, it won the AIAS (a big deal at this time) RPG of the Year award for the year of its release.


Now I bring up these examples to show you your concerns are nothing new. If the enjoyment derived from having no challenge is invalid, then "gameplay" needs to be reevaluated.

Games have evolved constantly over the years.

In the 1980s through the mid 90s, many games involved a character moving from left to right, often equipped with the powers of jump and attack.

In the late 90s, we started seeing many of these same gameplay mechanics adapted to the 3D space.

Nowadays, gameplay is a mixture of many ideas that are the result of what the market has indicated it wants.

The word "gameplay", as defined by the thread author only serves to further constrict genre variety.

Journey is a game because not every game needs an adversary or challenge.
 
The gaming press loves auto games. The less effort required for them to play through them before deadline the more they'll like it. It's been this way for awhile now.

Games that won the majority of GotY awards in the last ten years:

03 - Star Wars: KotOR
04 - Half-Life 2
05 - Resident Evil 4
06 - Oblivion
07 - Bioshock
08 - Fallout 3
09 - Uncharted 2
10 - Red Dead Redemption
11 - Skyrim

Yeah, look at all those no-effort-to-complete non-games. Truly a sweeping trend in the press.
 
I would also like to emphasize, that in evaluating something as -Game- of the Year, it's not just the inclusion of interactive elements to put it in the running, but the strength of those elements alone as much as with the rest of the package. A Mario title would still be just as fun without all of the cutesy sugar and rainbows, but would Journey's interactive elements be as fun without the sparkling sands and soaring music? Because that interactive stuff is the game portion, the part you play.

Game of the year is game of the year. It isn't gameplay of the year.
 
And? All you do in Mario games is moving forward and jumping yet people say they are a bliss of gameplay blah blah. Mario is not different than Journey or TWD with regards what defines a game.

Ehh, it was a mistake to use the term "non-game" in the thread title, because I believe OP does see Journey and TWD as being what defines a game. But other games are more ... "meat" in them, you know? Mario, for example, has greater interactivity and demands more from the player than Journey.
 
It's the first game I've liked that's even remotely "dudebro." Did you also read the part right after that where I shower love on Catherine and Nintendo Land?


Would Journey's gameplay portions -- the GAME part -- be fun without the music and graphics?

Mario's would. Journey's would not.

Go back to Zork then, yes?

If games graphics or sounds didn't matter.

Hell, mute your mario game, see if those "womp womps" that happen with the music make the game more fun. Surely they wouldn't because you wouldn't be able to tell WHEN they would do it.
 
I would also like to emphasize, that in evaluating something as -Game- of the Year, it's not just the inclusion of interactive elements to put it in the running, but the strength of those elements alone as much as with the rest of the package. A Mario title would still be just as fun without all of the cutesy sugar and rainbows, but would Journey's interactive elements be as fun without the sparkling sands and soaring music? Because that interactive stuff is the game portion, the part you play.

Surely, we've reached a point where games have become something more than their gameplay.


When someone says "Game of the year" They're not saying "gameplay of the year"

A game doesn't only have gameplay. it also has sound, graphics, presentation, design, balance, etc.

It's the fusion of everything, creating an overall package.
And thats what people are rating on when they say "game of the year"- the overall package.
 
Games that won the majority of GotY awards in the last ten years:

03 - Star Wars: KotOR
04 - Half-Life 2
05 - Resident Evil 4
06 - Oblivion
07 - Bioshock
08 - Fallout 3
09 - Uncharted 2
10 - Red Dead Redemption
11 - Skyrim

Yeah, look at all those no-effort-to-complete non-games. Truly a sweeping trend in the press.

Shit, looking at those games, 2012 will be the weakest year yet with the likes of Journey getting GOTY.

Btw, not that I care but, in 2010 ME2 got most awards, not RDR.
 
I'm fairly confident I can beat you in a Journey 100% race.
I'm pretty sure you can since I haven't even played it. I'm not qualifying Journey as a non-game btw. It's just that to me judging a game by the experience it offers is way more subjective than judging solely by it's gameplay. The gameplay you're presented doesn't differ from one person to another (it's just one does like that specific set of rules, another doesn't) but the experience offered by a game can be perceived differently from one person to another.

But of course, it's not only one or another. I feel that Dark Souls for example offers the 2 sides, and if you take one out, you get an awful game but meshed together it offers a great experience fuelled by it's tight gameplay. That would explain why some have difficulties to get into the game, the experience has to click, and this is different from one person to another.
 
I feel the same way, although I wouldn't go as far as to calling them non-games. Then again that's just a descriptor, poorly chosen maybe but it got the point across enough to have people jump into the thread, arguments ready to go.

TWD, while interesting didn't engage me like I would want to in a game, I felt like I was watching a book. The interactive elements are exceedingly trivial; so much so the at one point I thought, "What's the point of this." Yes, I thought the interactive element (the game part) was so dull, I'd rather it not be there. That leaves the decision making which is probably the main draw of the game and yeah, I enjoyed it but I wasn't engaged like I would want to be by a game. I get the same kind of enjoyment watching TV, this is supposed to be different.

Not saying I didn't like or appreciate it, but putting it up top discounts games with interesting game mechanics, interesting systems and sub-systems that you can manipulate freely. TWD pretty much ignores that shit. This isn't a slight on adventure games either, TWDs puzzles are dismal. It's just getting points for it's above par writing and that's mostly because overwhelmingly, the writing in games is terrible.

I haven't played Journey so I can't comment on that
 
This is reductionistic as fuck. The semiotic layer of a game has meaning and importance, even in regards to game mechanics. The colors of the enemies in Mario indicate danger, the carpets in Journey indicates flight, etc. Changing up the audio-visual characteristics have a massiv impact on how you understand and interpret the game and its mechanics, so changing them up would result in a completely different game. Even Mario.

Great post.
 
In response to the OP:

I've personally been disappointed by how little love my favorites have gotten the past two years in gaming press (namely Max Payne 3 and Driver: SF), but I absolutely understand why games like Journey and The Walking Dead turned so many heads. Both are somewhat reductive games, which is true, but that factors into their strengths as games: their focus.

Max Payne 3, to me and many, has stellar controls, visuals, and sound. The game adds in a bunch of small touches to make what I consider my GOTY, the improvements to bullet time, the weapon wielding, the physics engine, the last-man-standing concept, etc. The thing is... these are all improvements made to a somewhat known quantity and it makes the core idea of the game a little harder to "wow" people on. A game like Journey or TWD, however, is incredibly focused on doing specific things and do those certain things either overwhelmingly well or at least break new ground for the medium. Max Payne 3 is, to me, the best shooter I've ever played... but there are also a great deal of games in which you shoot things these days, so it's hard for it to stand out.

There's something to be said about concise experiences. I'm one of those guys who'll tell you The Hobbit could have been an hour shorter based on how little plot there was to the film, but I'm also the same guy who'll tell you the American cut of Cinema Paradiso is a travesty (it;s over 50 minutes shorter than the original cut). Not all games need to be 30-100 hour experiences like Driver, Fallout, Skyrim, inFamous, etc, and it's frankly magnitudes harder to make a game as tightly designed when their running times are 5, 10, even 50 times the length of something like Journey. There's no wasted moments in Journey- ever second is pretty much perfect in executing what it sets out to do. The control, online integration, visuals, shown-not-told elements of what would typically be a tutorial stage... it's an incredibly well designed game.

So, in a nutshell: I think it's because Journey was such a tight & well envisioned game and TWD brought people into decision making moreso than they ever had before (although Heavy Rain covered a lot of this ground a few years back, imo).
 
Game of the year is game of the year. It isn't gameplay of the year.

Nobody is arguing that it is gameplay of the year. The argument is that a game that wins Game of the Year should be representative of the medium and Journey's lack of engaging gameplay should detract greatly from its score.
 
Go back to Zork then, yes?

If games graphics or sounds didn't matter.

Hell, mute your mario game, see if those "womp womps" that happen with the music make the game more fun. Surely they wouldn't because you wouldn't be able to tell WHEN they would do it.
It would still be light years ahead of Journey in terms of player involvement and interaction, in terms of playing, which should be the No. 1 criteria for -Game- of the Year. That's all. And I still recognize those other titles as "games," and by "non-game" I trusted GAF wouldn't so literal, and would know I was simply referencing a difference in interactive content. And of course, as I already said, the interactive content, once there, should be evaluated on quality.
 
Games that won the majority of GotY awards in the last ten years:

03 - Star Wars: KotOR
04 - Half-Life 2
05 - Resident Evil 4
06 - Oblivion
07 - Bioshock
08 - Fallout 3
09 - Uncharted 2
10 - Red Dead Redemption
11 - Skyrim

Yeah, look at all those no-effort-to-complete non-games. Truly a sweeping trend in the press.

I doubt this opinion will endear me to many people, but I actually don't think there's a world of difference between Uncharted 2 and Journey.
 
Nobody is arguing that it is gameplay of the year. The argument is that a game that wins Game of the Year should be representative of the medium and Journey's lack of engaging gameplay should detract greatly from its score.

What if a game is a shooter, when there are 8 billion shooters? I think a lack of originality should definitely disqualify something from GOTY status.
 
If common usage of language was perfectly pedantic, we'd all be talking about engaging in interactive electronic entertainment as a hobby.

But we don't, and we won't - we're stuck with using the term video games even though the 'games' implies a more narrow subset of the entertainment that our society labels "video games"

Ignoring the implicit broader definition of "video games" when a (Video) Game of the Year award is being discussed is just nitpicking. We already know the term is imperfect.

If you want to highlight the best "game play" or "mechanics" from the year, then ask your favorite media members to create categories that do so. Or start a thread that praises games with those aspects. Don't try to put the genie back in the bottle by attempting to re-define "video game" for society at large, its a losing battle
 
Journey has engaging gameplay though.
I was bored to tears. The game pulled at my heartstrings here and there, yes, but the gameplay itself felt mundane, like a chore. The best part was the sand-surfing at sunset, which was criminally limited to that one part of the game. At least then there was some immediacy that felt like real player involvement, even if it was something of an illusion.
 
Games that won the majority of GotY awards in the last ten years:

03 - Star Wars: KotOR
04 - Half-Life 2
05 - Resident Evil 4
06 - Oblivion
07 - Bioshock
08 - Fallout 3
09 - Uncharted 2
10 - Red Dead Redemption
11 - Skyrim

Yeah, look at all those no-effort-to-complete non-games. Truly a sweeping trend in the press.

Slightly off-topic: Mass Effect 2 won more game of the year awards than Red dead redemption, I just checked the thread where they compile how many GOTY awards each game get dating back to 2007. :P

Also, if game critics love "auto-games" then the same apply to Neogaf right? When GAF actually compile the results, I expect Journey and The walking in the top 3 or close to it. Let's not forget that Heavy rain made the GAF top 10 in 2010 and ended up in the #6 spot if I remember right. :P
 
Nobody is arguing that it is gameplay of the year. The argument is that a game that wins Game of the Year should be representative of the medium and Journey's lack of engaging gameplay should detract greatly from its score.

I found Journey to be incredibly engaging. I had a goal and wanted it more and more as I played.

Fallout 3 won more awards than GTA IV/MGS4? I find this hard to believe.

What a damn good year for games, right?
 
What if a game is a shooter, when there are 8 billion shooters? I think a lack of originality should definitely disqualify something from GOTY status.

How are gameplay and originality mutually exclusive? I would think that one should take both into account when determining game of the year.

I found Journey to be incredibly engaging. I had a goal and wanted it more and more as I played.
Yes, the story and art are engaging, the gameplay sure as hell isn't.
 
The gaming press loves auto games. The less effort required for them to play through them before deadline the more they'll like it. It's been this way for awhile now.

Done in two this time.

The sooner you decide to stop paying attention to the press the happier you will be.
 
What if a game is a shooter, when there are 8 billion shooters? I think a lack of originality should definitely disqualify something from GOTY status.
Originality and gameplay can coexist. My problem is when gaming's top award goes to something that is original but mundane in terms of the actual interactive component, the "game" in "videogame" and what distinguishes this hobby from film or literature or music. Again, I-adore- 999, and I like (maybe even love) TWD and Journey, but I can't pretend their gameplay is anything special.
 
Fallout 3 won more awards than GTA IV/MGS4? I find this hard to believe.

It may seem that way because high profile videogame site such as Gamespot and IGN crowned MGS4 in overblown fashion (with perfect 10's). 2008 isn't far off, but there weren't as many well known sites as we have in 2012.
 
How are gameplay and originality mutually exclusive? I would think that one should take both into account when determining game of the year.


Yes, the story and art are engaging, the gameplay sure as hell isn't.

Originality irrefutably factors into notoriety, though. That's basically an answer for the OP, in a nutshell.

Yes, the story and art are engaging, the gameplay sure as hell isn't.

Eh, maybe for you. I found playing the game to be fun and invigorating. There's nothing factual about your opinion on Journey- you're not going to prove people wrong for enjoying the gameplay mechanics and objectives in the game.
 
I was bored to tears. The game pulled at my heartstrings here and there, yes, but the gameplay itself felt mundane, like a chore. The best part was the sand-surfing at sunset, which was criminally limited to that one part of the game. At least then there was some immediacy that felt like real player involvement, even if it was something of an illusion.
You're allowed to dislike a game without it being completely eliminated from the category of gaming, you know? I on the other hand found every moment of the game exhilarating, I loved the mechanics of sliding down each dune and briefly flying into the air. I loved the meta game of floating between each "power up" point, I loved the surfing as you mentioned. I liked exploring the environments so I could collect the symbols so I could get a super long scarf and fly for as long as possible. I got them all so I could unlock the white cloak. And above all I loved how the game involved me with other players, I still go through the game and try to lead new players to all of the symbols so they can have a good run through on their Journey.

Just because it didn't engage you, doesn't make it the standard rule.
 
I've been saying for a while now that video games have diverged into two seperate mediums. The terms game really isn't appropriate for many titles released, and this is absolutely a good thing. As more and more story focused games are released I hope at some point the industry recognises this and rebrands them as something else, partialy just so we don't have wierd goty conversations about TWD vs X-COM, but also I think a lot of these gams would benefit from embracing that they are something different and leaving behind some of remaining gamey things they sometimes rely on as filler. The games which commit to being either gameplay or story focused tend to be the ones I enjoy the most. When they try to have it both ways it is almost always to the games detriment imo. Portal 2 is the only one is recent memory to successfully marry the two styles, whereas there are countless examples where gameplay and story are at odds in one way or another.
 
Originality irrefutably factors into notoriety, though. That's basically an answer for the OP, in a nutshell.

Eh, maybe for you. I found playing the game to be fun and invigorating. There's nothing factual about your opinion on Journey- you're not going to prove people wrong for enjoying the gameplay mechanics and objectives in the game.
You don't have to sacrifice gameplay to be original...

Yes, the game is fun. It's fun for reasons that have nothing to do with its gameplay. If you think I didn't enjoy Journey you are gravely mistaken.
 
You're allowed to dislike a game without it being completely eliminated from the category of gaming, you know? I on the other hand found every moment of the game exhilarating, I loved the mechanics of sliding down each dune and briefly flying into the air. I loved the meta game of floating between each "power up" point, I loved the surfing as you mentioned. I liked exploring the environments so I could collect the symbols so I could get a super long scarf and fly for as long as possible. I got them all so I could unlock the white cloak. And above all I loved how the game involved me with other players, I still go through the game and try to lead new players to all of the symbols so they can have a good run through on their Journey.

Just because it didn't engage you, doesn't make it the standard rule.
Well, of course. My opinions are my own, and yours are your own, and this is an Internet message board where we can exchange viewpoints. I'll never understand the suggestion anyone is -forcing- something on others by sharing their opinion.

Also, I can understand why you like Journey, and I appreciate many of the same elements you mentioned. I'm just sharing my opinion, which is that while Journey can be seen as a wonderful experience, for me it's hardly a game compared to some of the other stuff that came out this year, stuff that fully engages the player moment to moment with meaningful interaction, action/reaction, cause/effect, a.k.a. interaction. :)
 
walking dead is a game, but it isn't best-of-the-year material. it's been a shitty year, but i think it gets disqualified on technical issues alone.
 
I'm curious, for those who think that a game should win GOTY because of its gameplay, what would be the best choices for the year?

If everything was right in the world, Kid Icarus should be sweeping the floor because it has incredible gameplay (challenging, addictive, satisfying, etc.). Right now I'm playing Dishonored and I'm enjoying the game mechanics a lot. Those two would be some of my picks.
 
You're allowed to dislike a game without it being completely eliminated from the category of gaming, you know?

Just because it didn't engage you, doesn't make it the standard rule.

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Yes, I own Journey on PS3. I loved Flower a LOT more. And why do you think I'd criticize it if I haven't played it?
I know it sounds crazy, but people like to do that. I'm glad you're not one of them.

Yeah, I wouldn't take the question personally. There are some genuinely immature fools on the internet, so it's also good to point out certain possibilities.
 
4 years ago I would've been so confused if someone mentioned a point-and-click adventure as an example of a non-game..
 
It would still be light years ahead of Journey in terms of player involvement and interaction, in terms of playing, which should be the No. 1 criteria for -Game- of the Year. That's all. And I still recognize those other titles as "games," and by "non-game" I trusted GAF wouldn't so literal, and would know I was simply referencing a difference in interactive content. And of course, as I already said, the interactive content, once there, should be evaluated on quality.

Sound of Music is less than a Movie because if you removed the music the movie wouldn't be as good.


Hell, let's let Mario win every year. Fuck yeah, most solid platformer ever. Let's regress about 40 years in terms of games.

Sounds like quality logic.
 
I'm curious, for those who think that a game should win GOTY because of its gameplay, what would be the best choices for the year?

If everything was right in the world, Kid Icarus should be sweeping the floor because it has incredible gameplay (challenging, addictive, satisfying, etc.). Right now I'm playing Dishonored and I'm enjoying the game mechanics a lot. Those two would be some of my picks.
OP here, and indeed, Kid Icarus Uprising is my pick for GOTY, followed by Sleeping Dogs. I'm still trying to figure out where everything else falls into place. I haven't had a chance to play Dishonored or XCOM yet, so whatever I end up voting for will probably not be definitive. But I know Resident Evil Revelations, Hotline Miami, and Nintendo Land will rank high. I plan to play Mark of the Ninja soon, as well. Hotline Miami is the game I'm currently obsessed with but I'm trying not to be blinded by afterglow.

Yeah, I wouldn't take the question personally. There are some genuinely immature fools on the internet, so it's also good to point out certain possibilities.
Sure, but it's also potentialy insulting to make such assumptions. If one doubts whether another played the game they're criticizing, ask them what criticisms they had of the game. If they played it, they'll know what they're talking about.

Sound of Music is less than a Movie because if you removed the music the movie wouldn't be as good.

Hell, let's let Mario win every year. Fuck yeah, most solid platformer ever. Let's regress about 40 years in terms of games.

Sounds like quality logic.
We're just talking about the gameplay portion here. The -game- itself.
 
How are gameplay and originality mutually exclusive? I would think that one should take both into account when determining game of the year.


Yes, the story and art are engaging, the gameplay sure as hell isn't
.

thats the point. We've reached a point where art, story, presentation, etc can made up for a game's lack in gameplay.


which is a good thing, btw, videogames are maturing as a medium. Games are now being viewed as an overall experience.
 
thats the point. We've reached a point where art, story, presentation, etc can made up for a game's lack in gameplay.

But Journey plays & controls great, too. There are objectives, goals, a sense of joy & play, social interactions, platforming, discovery, hidden items, stealth segments, fear-inducing enemies, an on-character hud of sorts, etc. It's not just a painting or whatever the comparison point being made is. TWD's conversation mechanics are just as good as jumping as Mario or shooting as Master Chief- you're just doing different things and trying to accomplish different goals.

Neither are "non games." They're both games.
 
Haven't played Journey,only TWD I like it allot. If its fun and keeps you involved then it's a great game. Game of the year is subject to opinion anyways. Just enjoy it for what it is. Entertainment. Journey and TWD aren't doing anything other games haven't done before. i mean ask yourself this and be honest: Today's Metal Gear wouldn't have nearly the popularity it sees if it didn't use the same theatrical formula thrown into it.
 
Neiteio, do you think Day of the Tentacle, Grim Fandango, or Beneath a Steel Sky are games?
Yes, I do. For the record, 999 is one of my favorite games. And mechanically, it's just as much a game as TWD or Journey (probably less so in terms of pure interaction). I recognize them as games and even -love- some of them, but when I call them "non-games" I'm simply saying that relative to other titles that fully and completely involve the player in the moment-to-moment mechanics, they are comparatively shallow or even mundane, and while they're still perfectly enjoyable experiences (even mindblowing, in the case of 999), I think that the title "Game of the Year" is reserved for the game with the most well-crafted, most involving, most interactive gameplay -- and interactive gameplay of quality, of course. The part you play, in other words.
 
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