And that's a bad thing. Story, art, presentation, etc should compliment gameplay, not replace it; lest the medium lose its meaning. These things should be valued in addition to, not instead of.
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Lots of non-games winning GOTY...
- Thread starter Neiteio
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And that's a bad thing. Story, art, presentation, etc should compliment gameplay, not replace it; lest the medium lose its meaning. These things should be valued in addition to, not instead of.
Chuck Norris
Banned
Or a point where a simple, and concise downloadable game that is well developed in all areas can be appreciated by the masses.
Some of you are letting your perspectives get away from you, Journey is still a downloadable indie game. If its gameplay seems simple, or there seems like there is a lack of depth. There is probably a reason.
To me, Journey is this years Portal. A smart idea executed flawlessly although in a short and simplistic way, and which becomes more than the some of its parts because of outstanding presentation
Mister Negative
Member
I can understand why someone would maybe say this about the walking dead but journey? you serious?
I'd again argue Journey is incredibly well crafted in terms of gameplay and control. It's sure as hell involving.
The Walking Dead's story and character relationships are incredibly interactive compared to 99.9% of all other video games ever made. It's very fresh in that regard, hence its wide appeal.
Wiktor
Member
Some people value the overall experience so much, they can overlook thin gameplay, so Journey or TWD can classify for them for GOTY.
Personally though, to me gameplay is the most important element of games, so I wouldn't give GOTY to stuff like Journey, Walking Dead, Dear Esther or any visual novel, no matter how much I loved playing through them.
Personally though, to me gameplay is the most important element of games, so I wouldn't give GOTY to stuff like Journey, Walking Dead, Dear Esther or any visual novel, no matter how much I loved playing through them.
That is absolutely not happening and you have nothing to worry about, at least in the cases of Journey and TWD.
ii Stryker
Banned
Firstly the word "videogame" needs to go.
The notion that Journey and The Walking Dead are considered games is absurd and offensive because they transcend the medium and go well beyond what a game is generally accepted to be.
When the word "videogame" is uttered everyone traditionally associates that with an 8 yr old sitting indian style playing a rainbow colored Mario or Pokemon. The medium is/has grown beyond that stigma.
It's also great to see the smaller indie devs putting the triple A chasers to shame.
The notion that Journey and The Walking Dead are considered games is absurd and offensive because they transcend the medium and go well beyond what a game is generally accepted to be.
When the word "videogame" is uttered everyone traditionally associates that with an 8 yr old sitting indian style playing a rainbow colored Mario or Pokemon. The medium is/has grown beyond that stigma.
It's also great to see the smaller indie devs putting the triple A chasers to shame.
Deified Data
Banned
ITT OP attempts to disarm all criticism by beating critics of his stance to the punch - GAF criticizes anyway. What'd he expect?
Jourey and TWD are "games". They don't necessarily meet my standard for GOTY either, but I'd rather see them earn the top spot than some regurgitated AAA bullshit that wins every other year.
Ridiculous - cut it with the elitist nonsense. Games are games. It's not the word that needs to change but how we define it.
Jourey and TWD are "games". They don't necessarily meet my standard for GOTY either, but I'd rather see them earn the top spot than some regurgitated AAA bullshit that wins every other year.
Ridiculous - cut it with the elitist nonsense. Games are games. It's not the word that needs to change but how we define it.
One of my favorite games this year is Hotline Miami. It does what you describe but without sacrificing gameplay. The gameplay in Hotline Miami is incredible, trading off careful planning and improv in equal measure, balancing fancy footwork with clever stealth and requiring some level of real skill and ingenuity -- you can not auto-pilot your way through it with minimal thought or care, which I was most definitely able to do with Journey. The -game- portion of Hotline Miami is robust, alive and well -- and it's as indie, small, focused and compact as they come. So again, originality or strength of vision does not need to be separate from good gameplay, and Hotline Miami shows how you can have this without supplanting or replacing gameplay like I feel Journey and TWD did.
Oh yeah because I was totally afraid to start a debate. Not like I started a thread or anything!
Oh yeah because I was totally afraid to start a debate. Not like I started a thread or anything!
Sometimes threads are basically this:
I think that's a technical challenge more than a creative challenge for the most part though so I'd like to see them keep trying to have it all.
WrenchNinja
Member
Games I don't like.
Cute, but to tweak what you said a little, I don't think a game that is basically a movie, music or book should be -Game- of the Year. But yeah, sure, you put it in a game system, so it's technically a game. I'm just focusing on the gameplay part here, though, the "game" in videogame, rather than the "video."
Steve McQueen
Member
Define 'game'
Journey and TWD are games to me, but they're just different from what most of us come to expect.
Journey and TWD are games to me, but they're just different from what most of us come to expect.
But Portal doesn't sacrifice gameplay for the experience. It provides great story and characters alongside challenging puzzles.
I'd change that to "some of us." Both Journey and The Walking Dead sell like no tomorrow. Journey broke PSN records, in fact.
And neither do Journey or TWD. Both are amazing experiences and your interactions in those games are clearly memorable and strong enough to win them tons of awards. People like those games for a reason.
Wiktor
Member
A game with little gameplay.
Imagine a movie that's 2 hours static-camera recording of a guy reading a great short story aloud. Still a movie, but some people would call it a non-movie, as it ignores the classic strenghts of the medium.
Zombie James
Banned
Sometimes I feel like I'm living in Bizarro World when people call Journey a non-game. There's exploration, light puzzle-solving, co-op, and stealth, all rolled into a tight 2-hour package. It's not a QTE-fest, or has endless cutscenes, or any other far less interactive methods of telling a story we usually have to deal with. It's a story told exceptionally well without any words at all and it should be commended for that.
Deified Data
Banned
Are you questioning whether or not these titles should be considered GOTY-worthy, or that there are people who actually consider them GOTY-worthy? Because making the latter argument is pointless, and if you accept the truth of the latter argument you're automatically accepting the former.
A game is a game. A game of poker is the same as a year long warhammer battle.
If you have a input than can modify the result of the viewing, its a game.
If you were to record two people playing the same game, and then watch both people, it would be different. That's why its different from a movie, a book or a music. Its not a fix media.
Wiktor
Member
Adventure genre's gameplay is based on puzzle solving. There barely are any puzzles in Walking Dead. It resembles the early FMV games, just done right.
Journey and TWD are games in that they involve some element of interaction. My point is that the title "Game of the Year" should be given to games based on gameplay, first and foremost. So if you isolate the interactive component, the moment-to-moment player involvement, how does the title hold up? In TWD, you're effectively turning the pages of a book, a Choose Your Own Adventure. It's a wonderful experience but barring the narrative -- the presentation -- you're left with... What? A multiple choice test? And again, I say this as someone who loved 999. And then with Journey, you have platforming elements, stealth elements, etc, that are mundane or minimal outside the context of the audiovisual. Again, in terms of the gameplay, it simply doesn't hold up.
EDIT: Emitan, I'd never hate someone over their tastes in videogames, lol.
But why is there a need for such made up lines and definitions? Games consist of different parts (gameplay, visuals, audio, story, etc). Some titles emphasize gameplay above all else and then the visuals can be just some colorful pixels and nothing else. In some other cases a story can be the most important element driving the game forward. I don't see what's the problem with that.
All of these definitions are just in our heads and there's really no point for them to exist. Or should we make some "60% of the game has to be pure gameplay or it can't win GOTY awards" chart?
Yeah, I think a few people are grasping at straws to build a case against some weird non-existent threat to "traditional gaming."
Gameplay, to me, is all about my feedback to the game I'm playing.
Jumping in Mario feels good. Gunfights in Max Payne feel intense and exhilarating. Decision making and relationship building in The Walking Dead make me feel a wide array of things.
This implies the game still has puzzles and therefore remains a game, apparently.
Just not a very good one.
Dion Blaster
Member
At first I agreed that games with not so much gameplay shouldn't be given as much credit as others, but I've changed my stance. There are so many freaking games out there, why not let a few be different even if they go against your personal tastes? I think it's cool that we are getting new experiences that don't fit the norm, I don't think that interaction should be defined as moving a character across a screen. I think this was a good thread though, read some really interesting arguments.
ii Stryker
Banned
Sorry but you're wrong. The term videogame is was and always will be associated with a throw away meaningless experience.
The terminology does need to change because the attitude towards the traditional term "videogame" never will. The OP proves this with the creation of this very thread.
Jex
Member
No, people would still call it a movie, it would just be a fairly poor one.
The premise of this entire thread is flawed because I still haven't read anything that clearly clarifies "what is game" in a way that would exclude Journey or The Walking Dead. It is narrow minded to exclusively focus on "skill and creativity" - the sheer breadth of the different varieties of games that exist at the moment is staggering but it's not a cause to arbitrarily define gaming under one particular definition that you feel is the most appropriate. To exclude all games that don't fit under such a narrow category is extremely unreasonable and to suggest they shouldn't win GOTY's is to deny their critical and commercial success, which is madness.
Wiktor
Member
Sure. They all have some form of interactivity, so to me those are still all games. Same with visual novels or stuff like Dear Esther. Personally I just don't think titles like that should be winning GOTY awards, but this doesn't change that they're still games and I can understand how other people's definition of what makes a game good can be different than mine.
Deified Data
Banned
Hard to argue against that.
Why let the harshest critics of the hobby deterimine what we can and cannot call it?
Remind me of what Spoony said in his Lady of pain counter monkey.
"The exit of this maze is half a million year away in this direction. Its a straight corridor. Its still a maze, just not a good one."
Wiktor
Member
Well..stuff like Walkind Dead to me is a fairly poor game then, even if it's still an amazing experience.
Well put. It is, frankly, a flawed argument. It's the equivalent of saying "why don't many horror films get Oscar buzz?" as if it were a problem in need of fixing rather than a product of the material and audience out there.
And this is okay!
I don't even have a problem with people calling TWD or Journey games for the record. I gave Journey shit for being a "non-game" as a joke. I've never even played Journey.
I'm not surprised that these 'games' are getting the goty awards.
the media is more willing to forgive a game's flaws if the story and graphics are good enough, they won't be so forgiving if the gameplay is awesome but the story and graphics aren't that good.
Personally I think gaming press goty awards are full of shit, since those lists are mostly made up of games I'll never play simply because I have no interest in them.
the media is more willing to forgive a game's flaws if the story and graphics are good enough, they won't be so forgiving if the gameplay is awesome but the story and graphics aren't that good.
Personally I think gaming press goty awards are full of shit, since those lists are mostly made up of games I'll never play simply because I have no interest in them.
Perhaps the thread title should be changed to "Lots of games with thin, barely there or comparatively mundane gameplay are winning GOTY." Could this be done? Because that's what I meant, as I thought was clear from the OP (where I even refer to TWD and Journey as GAMES, assuming people would no what I meant in the title).
There's some real irony in this sentence.
Jex
Member
I don't imagine anyone would argue with that, even if they might argue with the "poor game" element. They might say "limited systems" or "awkward controls" or whatever, but yeah. That's completely different from denying that it is a game at all.
We shouldn't.
I'd argue Cool Hand Luke is an amazing experience & a great film. The Walking Dead is an amazing experience and great game for that very reason, too.
get it right the first timePerhaps the thread title should be changed to "Lots of games with thin, barely there or comparatively mundane gameplay are winning GOTY." Could this be done? Because that's what I meant, as I thought was clear from the OP (where I even refer to TWD and Journey as GAMES, assuming people would no what I meant in the title).
So business as usual then.
I had too much faith that people would read the OP.
Chuck Norris
Banned
And yet many would argue that Portal was an incredibly simple experience as far as gameplay goes, with no replayability.
Precisely. There are no varying degrees of gamehood, or what have you. Journey and The Walking Dead are games, which is a fact. The subjective part here is the audience's opinion and reaction to those games.
There's merely a different focus when compared to something like, I don't know, Contra.
Very true. The puzzles (IE, the entire game) are pretty much one-time experiences for many, but I doubt those same people would claim it made Portal a "thin game."
Wiktor
Member
On logical level it is, but I still felt a little weird when site I write for named Walking Dead our GOTY
Oh, well...I will get over it. The interesting question is - what about genre awards? For example...if we consider Walking Dead to be the best experience of the year, but it still is a pretty bad adventure game..should we name it best adventure, solely because it's best experience or name worse experience becaue it's better adventure game. This might be some solution, putting GOTY to overall experience, while judging genre awards mostly by gameplay, as gameplay is definining element of genre.
Portal still involved the act of the player in a constant interactive capacity moreso than, say, Journey, so I'd say the gameplay is stronger.
Doctor Decimate
Member
seems more like you created a title that was obviously baiting for hits, actually