Does this thread make you mad?
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LTTP : FF X-2 - WTF is this!?
- Thread starter HotHamBoy
- Start date
Does this thread make you mad?
I mean, if someone literally returns the game upon seeing the first minute of a game and not going any further than that at all, i'd question the attitude of that person as well. 1 minute is not even close to enough to actually make a decision about it at all. It's quite literally not giving the game a chance at all. Shit, is not even playing it. Of course people are going to dismiss people that come here and say that they didn't even play the game before returning it. It makes no sense.
eyeball_kid
Member
I avoided this game on release because it looked like pure T&A fan service, and looking at some of the linked scenes now I'm finding it hard to say my original impression was wrong.
The way you describe the game is interesting, but if that's true it sounds like the game was trying to serve two masters the libido of teenage boys, and the desire of the game's creators to tell a different kind of story and with a different kind of (more female-empowered) characters. Doesn't one undercut the other?
Fencedude is convinced that the game isn't made with the male gaze.
Quite the opposite, "girls are icky" is apparently the only thing people who don't like the game have concluded.
DarkConfidant
Member
Yeah, the battle system was amazing, if you could stand the rest of the game's cringeworthy parts (plot, character designs, scenario design, music, etc).
The writing makes normal FF games seem like brilliant literature, and the voice acting makes anime seem as theater.
Since it's so heavy on those things, it made the game impossible for me to replay in the HD.
The story is bullshit too, but I won't post spoilers.
The writing makes normal FF games seem like brilliant literature, and the voice acting makes anime seem as theater.
Since it's so heavy on those things, it made the game impossible for me to replay in the HD.
The story is bullshit too, but I won't post spoilers.
poodaddy
Gold Member
poodaddy
Gold Member
Right you'd question their attitude..... but would you curse them out?
Do you think it's acceptable to handle the disagreement in that manner?
While he did not say that in so many words, I went and checked the OP post again while writing that and the tone is incredibly dismissive and condescending.
The opening theme is one of my favourite FF tracks
I thought X-2 was a fun little romp around Spira. The opening concert scene where "Yuna?" turns into a pop idol all of a sudden was a clear sign this was going to be a Final Fantasy that wasn't going to take itself seriously, and I immediately welcomed that notion.
Oh, and I liked both the Real Emotion and 1000 Words scenes. They still look good today which is a testament to the quality of square's work back then.
The true ending though... shit left a bad taste.
I thought X-2 was a fun little romp around Spira. The opening concert scene where "Yuna?" turns into a pop idol all of a sudden was a clear sign this was going to be a Final Fantasy that wasn't going to take itself seriously, and I immediately welcomed that notion.
Oh, and I liked both the Real Emotion and 1000 Words scenes. They still look good today which is a testament to the quality of square's work back then.
The true ending though... shit left a bad taste.
Eh, I was just being emphatic. I guess I could see how you might interpret it that way. But I haven't told anyone they were wrong for liking the game. And I don't feel that way. I actually get why some people might enjoy it for what it is.
You didn't answer my question in Post #251...
No, there is 100% male gaze in the game, and it is a problem.
However, dismissing the game (or anything, really) because it has that in it is just as bad, because its basically saying that if something isn't 100% perfect, then it can have no redeeming values, feminist or otherwise.
FFX-2 makes strong statements about girls (or women, really.) and their ability to seize their own destiny. Reducing it down to "lol skimpy costumes how sexist" is at best, very shortsighted, and at worst actively disingenuous.
This also goes back to an assumption that things that are coded as "feminine" are in-and-of-themselves sexist because we perceive feminity as "weak". This is what leads to a lot of what gaming now has in terms of "Strong Female Characters" who are basically just regular male characters only girls. And there is a place for that! But in the process we reinforce the idea that "masculine" things are good and "feminine" things are bad.
FFX-2 is incredibly feminine. It pervades the very core of how the battle system works. The person who upthread called it a "magical girl" game is spot on. And just like Magical Girl anime, it uses things that are incredibly feminine as sources of strength and power every bit as valid as the masculine coding we are used to.
To simplify things incredibly, imagine a coordinate grid. We'll label the X axis "Agency" and the Y axis "Objectification". The "Agency" axis represents how much, well, agency female characters have in a work. Are they merely damsels, or are they characters who are in charge of their own destiny? The "Objectification" axis would cover things like outfits, how the camera looks at them, that kind of thing.
So you could chart something on both axes. FFX-2 would score incredibly well on "Agency" but poorly on "Objectification", while many modern AAA games (uuuhhh...say Watch_Dogs, just to grab one off the top of my head) would score pretty good on "Objectification" and poorly on "Agency".
Now, you can look at one game and see skimpy outfits and go "HEY THAT GAME IS SEXIST AND UNFEMINST!" and the other and see "oh well the women are all fully dressed and aren't intensely oggled, it must be not/less sexist!" When the issues are much more complicated than that.
Complaining about outfits and male gaze is easy, you can score quick points that way, with games like FFX-2, or Neptunia, or a bunch of other (mainly, but not only Japanese) examples. While the sexism in other games requires more analysis prodding to recognize. (I'm not saying Neptunia is a feminist masterpiece, but its 100% about girls/women who have complete agency and are not just devices for the development of the male lead, something AAA gaming has a real hard time with)
So yeah, its complicated, and if all you are going to do is whine that a girl is singing JPop on stage, then no, I'm not going to take your complaints very seriously, and I'm probably not going to take YOU very seriously either.
You still haven't answered my question in Post #251.
But I appreciate your dissertation.
I haven't played this since release, but I don't remember there being much of the over the top Charlie's Angels stuff after the first couple of hours.
Revisiting all the places you fought at in X and seeing them turned into attractions and such and seeing the characters react to that was really interesting. A lot darker than you'd think.
I remember the game being pretty great actually.
Revisiting all the places you fought at in X and seeing them turned into attractions and such and seeing the characters react to that was really interesting. A lot darker than you'd think.
I remember the game being pretty great actually.
I ignored it because "you mad" is one of the most trivializing comments you can make to something. Its pure channer shit and has no place in an actual discussion.
Am I mad? Yeah, a little, and so what?
Honestly the one thing that stuck with me through all these years was how off-tone the menu music sounded compared to the rest of the campiness of the game. It's like the entire game's starting presentation was J-pop out the wazoo, but then you have this really, really melancholic, serious piece for the menu music.
Then the mid-game shit happens, and while the game is still campy after, the tone shift plus the menu music hits you and it suddenly all makes a great deal more sense.
Then the mid-game shit happens, and while the game is still campy after, the tone shift plus the menu music hits you and it suddenly all makes a great deal more sense.
Keihart
Member
The office is akward and cringy...but that is what most people might call a well written and funny tv show.
FFX-2 is ridiculous and i kinda hated it the first time i saw it, but once i started playing it i had a lot of fun with it, but i love good campy stuff like Evil Dead or Devil May Cry.
You know,
I would argue that the message you're left with at the end of FFX is to accept harsh realities change brings (read: death) and to never let go of good memories you had.
It's pretty insulting, then, that FFX-2 begins with, and revolves around not accepting those earlier lessons.
It also would have been nice if Yuna had had her character development from quiet summoner to happy-go-lucky treasure hunter during the game, instead of between the games.
Battle system was pretty good if you like ATB, I guess, but we are talking about direct sequel here, and switching from FFX's turn-based battles to X-2's ATB... Well, disrespectful isn't quite the right word, but why would you do that?
Overall FFX-2 feels like an ungraceful sequel to me. Fine on it's own merits, but if it were it's own IP or at least had nothing to do with FFX it could have been reserved better, and maybe they could even have written a better story that wasn't limited by the established rules of FFX.
Like what kind of OTP is
? Get out of here with that shit.
I would argue that the message you're left with at the end of FFX is to accept harsh realities change brings (read: death) and to never let go of good memories you had.
It's pretty insulting, then, that FFX-2 begins with, and revolves around not accepting those earlier lessons.
It also would have been nice if Yuna had had her character development from quiet summoner to happy-go-lucky treasure hunter during the game, instead of between the games.
Battle system was pretty good if you like ATB, I guess, but we are talking about direct sequel here, and switching from FFX's turn-based battles to X-2's ATB... Well, disrespectful isn't quite the right word, but why would you do that?
Overall FFX-2 feels like an ungraceful sequel to me. Fine on it's own merits, but if it were it's own IP or at least had nothing to do with FFX it could have been reserved better, and maybe they could even have written a better story that wasn't limited by the established rules of FFX.
Like what kind of OTP is
Lulu x Wakka
poodaddy
Gold Member
Here we have an interesting analytical post that almost came across as respectful until the end of it where you revert to childish snark and not so veiled insults once again, and never once have you acknowledged that you have conducted yourself like an impetuous child towards those who see things differently than you nor have you acknowledged that you directly insulted other members for their opinions. You have a head on your shoulders but ironically it's impeded by a lack of acceptance of or respect for others with view points differing from your own whilst your insults and condescension stem from a will to admonish such an attitude. You're incapable of introspection or of conducting a debate without resorting to snark or hostility and that makes me question why anyone would bother debating with you in the first place.
Have a Nice Day
Member
Final Fantasy fans are disgusting.
I'm completely capable of that when I'm not having to deal with arguments that were tired 10 years ago and a thread full of boys who's posts may as well be replaced with EEEWWW GIRL COOTIES in describing their reactions to the game.
Like, most of this thread could have been posted on GameFAQs in 2005 and no one would have been able to tell the difference. I'd like to think gaming discourse has grown up at least a bit in the last decade+, but I am continually disappointed.
AuthenticM
Member
PREACH
nogoodnamesleft
Banned
THIS. Still cant believe there are people who like, no, LOVE FF12.
FFX+X2+12
Coming from FF7, 8 and 9 the previous gen. Disgusting.
Ah, just saw this post. Thank you. I was starting to think I was crazy with the way I remembered the game.
I loved their approach to a sequel. It was really clever and I thought the story carried a lot of emotion weight. Whenever I see it written off as campy girl power or whatever I just scratch my head. Is the intro song and dance really that much more crazy than starting the game playing underwater soccer?
I gained a new appreciation towards FFXII after playing Xenoblade Chronicles. I haven't replayed XII after that though, so who knows if that's worth anything.
In retrospect, seems like people always start appreciating the previous Final Fantasy more when a new one gets released. Hopefully XV breaks that tradition, XIII-saga wasn't that great.
nogoodnamesleft
Banned
FF13 was bad, i agree. Somehow, though, i prefer it to 12 and 10-2. Its probably just slightly worse than 10, imho.
TriAceJP
Member
Err...
FFX-2 and FFXII are fine games.
FFXII is a great game, even.
X is awful but I mean, don't let that ruin those other two.
Keihart
Member
FF7 is one of my least liked FF's beside XIII. Never undertood the "benchmark" it was supposed to be, i played it back in the day too and it seemed pretty lackluster, FFVIII was the first 3d FF to blow my mind.
I also prefer V to VI , even if i like both so i might actually always prefer the silly humor, FFX-2 was far from being bad, but it was quite a shock if you went in expecting FFX part 2.
FFXII was the first FF to completly alienate my tastes, that game felt like everything i was triying to avoid on western RPGs at the time by playing JRPGs.
poodaddy
Gold Member
You keep reverting back to your interpretation of people's posts but the discourse has literally all been civil except that which you've contributed, how are you not seeing this?
Because "civility" isn't something that is an issue? I'm being "uncivil"? Thats your issue? That is more important than anything else?
There is a term for this, you know. Its called "Tone Trolling". Its when you use the tone of someone's arguments to discredit or brush away what they are actually saying.
Yeah, I could be nicer here, but I'm about all out of "nice" for boys who are afraid looking at something "girly" will cause their dick to shrivel up and fall off. Its tedious, distracting and is one of the big reasons we can't actually have a real discourse about sexism and representation in games.
But I'm sorry for being "uncivil". I will try to civilize myself, because that is the only thing you are apparently interested in.
Wow. This opinion actually deserves an angry crazy Fencedude meltdown post.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
again, it is not an idol aesthetic, the fuck is this
So what you're saying girls can't be all "girly" and shouldn't be playing dress-up because it enforces stereotypes. You heard that cosplayers? You're demeaning women!
finally, someone gets it!
the music was ace though
Um, what? How? I mean, really, HOW? Because Spira was no longer nothing but a death spiral? People were allowed to live in peace and have fun? How was anything about Spira and the lore "destroyed?"
Scrooge McDuck
Member
The entirety of FFX-2 actually revolves around accepting change. Almost every person and location become something different from what you remember, and not always for the better. It has this really melancholic "everything will have an end" mood pervading every part of it underneath all the cheerful campiness.
Which is why the game's "Normal Ending" is actually secretly the best ending. It's the one that's consistent with the theme of the game.
You've just been posting this thread a lot, that's all.
The irony is killing me.
It's kind of hilarious that you keep making an arguement based off of a sentiment that no one in this thread has expressed.
ShadowSwordmaster
Banned
X-2 is a weird game is all I can say.
TriAceJP
Member
Dunno who that is.
Yabberwocky
Member
I played FFX-2 around the time I was completely obsessed with Sailor Moon, and getting to do that magical girl transformation shit in a game made my year. I don't think I put on the transformation skip setting the entire time I played.
Guilty as charged, FFXII, the precious! I love all my children equally, with all their pros and cons. I can understand why FFXII and X-2 are divise, but what didn't work for you guys with FFX? I always thought it was the last solid entry into the franchise until time/dev issues crept in under the Enix ownership. The PS1 FF era is fantastic, but not without their issues. I think FFVII is one of the most solid out of all the FF games, but FFVIII and FFIX definitely have their weak points. For me, I wasn't a fan of FF8's cast/gameplay, and FFIX, whilst extremely charming, did have gameplay issues alongside a story that fell apart for me outside of the Zidane/Garnet relationship.
At any rate, whether our dislikes are X-2 to XII to VIII, I think we can all universally agree that that the radio drama sequel to X-2 is fucking awful.
I'd also like to complain that I've a) had Real Emotion stuck in my head for twenty-four hours now, and b) have an urge to replay FFX-2, which I don't particularly have time for. I won't give into it, now, I know...
Preach! The normal ending is amazing, and the good/perfect endings seem a bit out of place in comparison.
Though Yuna dragging Tidus along through the water was pretty cute.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
nogoodnamesleft
Banned
For me:
No overworld
Awful cast from top to bottom
Awful VA (which i can forgive to an extent, first FF with full VA, but it is still absolutely awful)
Awful LEAD
Sub par (in comparison to every FF before it) Soundtrack
Boring locales with absolutely minimal exploration (i did like Macalania though)
Horrible endgame sidequests (dodging lightning and that fucking chocobo race....)
Stupid story even compared to other FF games
It was just overall shit. I did enjoy the Monster arena metagame. Thats about it.
Replaying FFX after all these years is kind of hard. Especially since I can't unhear Jake the Dog whenever Waku speaks.
hurricanes
Member
Hey I never say FFX Yuna is a great character, but at least she's consistent through out. Then X-2 came out and throw that characterization out of the window... Character growth is great, but you can't just put a completely different personality in a well established character and expect the audience to make sense of it. The progress of change needed be well presented, or you end up with this OOC bad fanfiction vibe character that many complained about.
Edit: the ten times comment, I was comparing Yuna's X-2 personality to Yuri from Shadow Hearts.
I remember disliking FF12 when it came out because it was different.
Then I played it again and realised it is far and away, easily, without a doubt, well and truly the best game in the series. It really isn't even close. FF12 is wonderful.
Her character development definitely makes sense. I'm fairly convinced most people just dislike the change because she isn't submissive anymore.
Also people take FFX way too seriously if they believe X-2 ruins it. FFX doesn't deserve that much respect, whether you think it's a good game or not. It's not a masterpiece of writing by any stretch.
poodaddy
Gold Member
I just can't understand the point of rudeness when you're arguing about video games on the internet, but I guess I'm crazy. Rudeness ruins debate, it discredits both sides of any debate, and it is just unproductive in general. You can mask your childish insults as a crusade against sexism in video games, (which honestly what the hell, disliking this game for its themes is not inherently sexist), and you may continue to erupt with internet rage at every other comment that does not align with your worldly views, but I would remind you that Neogaf is supposed to a place of "civil discourse." I mean it's in the TOS ffs, so you can continue to make fun of me or insult others for valuing civility in these discussions, as is your right, but understand that the lack of civility in a debate merely dilutes the logic of your position and the foundation of debate as a means for discussion in the first place. You remind me of the person in my wife's philosophy class who won't speak to her now except to scream at her and pout because they had a disagreement over Pokemon Go and whether it's a "dangerous app" or not. My wife is unable to converse with her now or take her seriously because of how volatile and violent she became over a simple disagreement, and as such it destroys any potential for either party to have meaningful debate thus rendering further interaction with each other a moot point.
TL;DR: Lack of civility destroys the entire purpose of debate, (which is to try to convince another party of the strength of your position), by way of making future interaction with the hostile individual undesirable in general.
Ludger Kresnik
Member
The battle system was good, but come on, man.
Not saying it's the best game in the series, but it's my favourite one. It's such a big load of fun and easily my most replayed FF, especially with all the different approaches you can take.
hurricanes
Member
I don't think so so let's agree to disagree. And no I am not a fan of FFX story, I actually consider it a weaker entry of the series. But FFX-2 is worse.
I just wanna say that I'm not at all serious in a lot of my posts in this thread, and if you disagree with what I say that's cool it's not a big deal, we're discussing a game.
However, the Yuna argument is also one that I cannot grasp. For one, it's been 2 years since FFX, it's not like the ending cutscene for X finished and Yuna threw off her clothes and picked up compression shorts and a revealing top. I'm sure not everyone saw that short video Eternal Calm but it did a decent amount of bridging to X-2.
Furthermore, I can't understand how people say her personality was completely different or thrown away. If anything, Yuna in X-2 is a continuation of the growth she had in X. She's still struggling with not being used by people, and Paine and Rikku call her out on it all the time with her tendency to say Yes to everyone no matter what they ask. Not to mention, she's also TRYING not to be so uptight and formal, even going so far as to copy some of the dumb shit Rikku says just because she thinks it's cool or whatever.
I mean, I could go on, but Yuna is still Yuna, for better or worse. And again, considering what she went through, what she achieved and lost, she deserved to cut loose. That's not having a "different" personality. It's not like people in real life can't change, especially over the course of TWO YEARS.
Again, this ain't that serious. It's just that a lot of the more popular arguments against X-2 are generally just plain false. But opinions and all that.
However, the Yuna argument is also one that I cannot grasp. For one, it's been 2 years since FFX, it's not like the ending cutscene for X finished and Yuna threw off her clothes and picked up compression shorts and a revealing top. I'm sure not everyone saw that short video Eternal Calm but it did a decent amount of bridging to X-2.
Furthermore, I can't understand how people say her personality was completely different or thrown away. If anything, Yuna in X-2 is a continuation of the growth she had in X. She's still struggling with not being used by people, and Paine and Rikku call her out on it all the time with her tendency to say Yes to everyone no matter what they ask. Not to mention, she's also TRYING not to be so uptight and formal, even going so far as to copy some of the dumb shit Rikku says just because she thinks it's cool or whatever.
I mean, I could go on, but Yuna is still Yuna, for better or worse. And again, considering what she went through, what she achieved and lost, she deserved to cut loose. That's not having a "different" personality. It's not like people in real life can't change, especially over the course of TWO YEARS.
Again, this ain't that serious. It's just that a lot of the more popular arguments against X-2 are generally just plain false. But opinions and all that.