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LttP: Super Mario Galaxy (aka Mario 64 plus gravity minus puzzles)

hyduK

Banned
So, I got a Wii for Christmas with NSMBWii...that didn't take too long to beat so I decided to buy another game. Super Mario Galaxy seemed to be the obvious choice. I had played a bit of it here and there, but not too much, and it seems to be widely regarded as the best Wii game.

Anyhow, I've played quite a bit of it (up to around 60 stars), and I'm having some mixed opinions. I suppose that I'll start with the good:

Like all Mario games (Nintendo games for that matter) it has superb art direction, for the hardware the graphics are amazing. All the levels look spectacular and the animations are spot on. Apart from that the controls are excellent, extremely tight and responsive. The music is awesome as well...nothing too memorable, just very consistent throughout. The gravity has to be the best part of the game, the way they got it to work so fluidly blows my mind, easily one of the biggest changes to 3d platformers in recent years.

Now the bad....I simply can't stand the way they handled the level design in the game. In Mario 64 you would basically jump into the painting, select the star you were going after, and go into the world. Thing is, once you get into the world, you can basically explore it fully at your will, and you don't necessarily have to get the star that you selected at the level screen. Depending on what star you select there might be some minor differences, but that was really it.

Super Mario Galaxy, not so much. You select a star, and get thrown into the world. However, unlike in SM64 you can't explore the whole world, no. You can explore the planets that lead to the star you selected, and that's it. It pretty much plays like a sidescroller, you can't explore anything, and there's never a question of where you should go to look for the star because 90% of the time there's only one place to go. Maybe 10% of the time you'll get to a planet where the way off isn't entirely obvious, but the majority of the time you just collect 5 pieces of a launch pad and it appears (this is my candidate for most overused 'puzzle' this gen by the way)...worst case scenario you fuck around for 20 seconds (due to the fact that the planets are usually small) and you figure out what to do.

That's the major (and it is major) issue I have with the game. Sure, it's kind of clever that the levels change based on what star you go for, but it pretty much breaks any challenge the game could have. You jump from planet to planet to planet, and reach the star...nearly EVERY time. I can't imagine why Nintendo would choose to do this...why not at least have more than one possible path to follow? Considering the only real challenge in the 3d Mario games has always been figuring out how to get the star this just boggles my mind. It's not as if they upped the difficulty somewhere else, they just took the puzzle element out of the majority of the game. Did they think it would be too overwhelming to have a whole world open with the gravity mechanic included? That's really the only possibility I can think of....

It just pisses me off, because besides this the game is nearly flawless. I know Nintendo can do great puzzles, I've seen it before, it's the fact that they chose not to that angers me. The only other complaint I have is the size of the hub world...exploring the castle was always fun in Mario 64, and you always wanted to unlock that next door to see what was behind it...now you basically just unlock tiny rooms with nothing in it.

Regardless, I'm not done the game yet, and a lot could change. Either way it's still a good game, just not Mario 64 good.
 

Wario64

works for Gamestop (lol)
The path does branch off in certain levels, which is required for you to do if you plan to 100% the game. Anyway, I disagree and love the linearity for each star. Mario Galaxy doesn't become difficult unless you plan to get every star. It only becomes difficult in those last 30 or so stars with those special challenges.
 
Do you exclusively define challenge as how much freedom you get in one stage? The game gives you a goal and throws you in - just like every other Mario game ever (save Mario 64).

I wish people would stop comparing it to SM64 and just let it be Mario Galaxy.

I do agree a little bit though, but I didn't find it nearly as annoying as you do
 
It's an interesting complaint that's mirrored by a lot of people but I for one disagree. The linear nature of the game kept everything nice and focused ensuring that you're never lost. That and I was consistently seeing something brand new with every level. It's the closest representation of Super Mario 3 in 3D.
 

hyduK

Banned
FoxHimself said:
Do you exclusively define challenge as how much freedom you get in one stage? The game gives you a goal and throws you in - just like every other Mario game ever (save Mario 64).

I wish people would stop comparing it to SM64 and just let it be Mario Galaxy.

I do agree a little bit though, but I didn't find it nearly as annoying as you do
No, I definitely do not. Though I think most will agree that in the 3d Mario games, the challenge usually lies in the puzzles (which there aren't very many of). There's some exceptions, such as bosses, and on select levels where the platforming becomes difficult at points (the Bowser levels in Mario 64 come to mind). Aside from that though, the puzzles are the only thing stopping you from getting most stars. I have yet to see a somewhat difficult puzzle, and I think a lot of that has to do with the limited amount of space they have to do the puzzles.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
The game is balanced so that anyone can get the first 60 stars, but it's not a cakewalk. You're still fully engaged along the way. The back half of the game, it gets way harder until as stated about the last 30 stars are seriously serious business. Then there's the 2nd Quest, which changes the game again thanks to different physics.

The thing about Galaxy is that the "linear" routes are used to create the feeling of a 2D Mario course but in 3D. It's the closest anyone has come so far to replication that feeling of a 2D platformer in 3D, outside of possibly the cult classic Maximo games on the PS2.

Another thing of note, that I appreciate about the design, is that you can't stock lives in your save file. If you notice, you reset to 5 lives every time you reload the game, and this is one reason why there's frequently a letter waiting for you with a bonus 5-up. During one session, you can certainly hit up some 1-up loops and stock 30 or 40 lives. But I like this system because your lives become another tool - not a pit of resources that you just grind to fill up.

When going for the back half of the stars in the game, I probably died and failed out of a level a few /hundred/ times. I'd call that a pretty damn challenging and engaging game.

More than almost any game I've ever played, outside of, ha ha, the 2D Mario series, Galaxy is just fun to physically play. It's fun to start over from the beginning and run through the courses again and again, because there's so much packed into every square inch of every galaxy variation. You're rarely doing any one activity for long enough that it becomes a chore, and there's always something awesome visible just ahead that you're about to reach.
 

CoolS

Member
The thing you describe as bad is the one thing I loved most about Mario Galaxy. I basically transferred the level structure of 2D Mario into a 3D World. I love Mario 64, but prefer the linearity of Mario Galaxy's levels. There always is a clear goal you have to reach, with hidden areas and exits thrown in, just like in 2D games.

Now they just have to crank up the difficulty a notch or galaxy 2 and I'm the luckiest gamer ever :)
 
hyduK said:
No, I definitely do not. Though I think most will agree that in the 3d Mario games, the challenge usually lies in the puzzles. There's some exceptions, such as bosses, and on select levels where the platforming becomes difficult at points (the Bowser levels in Mario 64 come to mind). Aside from that though, the puzzles are the only thing stopping you from getting most stars.

Talk to me again after you've gotten the first 90 or so stars - the game gets rough if you try to go for 100%.
 
CoolS said:
The thing you describe as bad is the one thing I loved most about Mario Galaxy. I basically transferred the level structure of 2D Mario into a 3D World. I love Mario 64, but prefer the linearity of Mario Galaxy's levels. There always is a clear goa you have t rach, with hidden areas an exits thrown in, just like in 2D games.

Now they just have to crank up the difficulty a notch or galaxy 2 and I'm the luckiest gamer ever :)

Nintendo said they were going to up the difficulty substansially and compared it to Super Mario World.
 
AniHawk said:
Uh, SMG's linear design is one of the really good things about the game.

frustration.jpg
 

hyduK

Banned
Kaijima said:
The game is balanced so that anyone can get the first 60 stars, but it's not a cakewalk. You're still fully engaged along the way. The back half of the game, it gets way harder until as stated about the last 30 stars are seriously serious business. Then there's the 2nd Quest, which changes the game again thanks to different physics.

The thing about Galaxy is that the "linear" routes are used to create the feeling of a 2D Mario course but in 3D. It's the closest anyone has come so far to replication that feeling of a 2D platformer in 3D, outside of possibly the cult classic Maximo games on the PS2.

Another thing of note, that I appreciate about the design, is that you can't stock lives in your save file. If you notice, you reset to 5 lives every time you reload the game, and this is one reason why there's frequently a letter waiting for you with a bonus 5-up. During one session, you can certainly hit up some 1-up loops and stock 30 or 40 lives. But I like this system because your lives become another tool - not a pit of resources that you just grind to fill up.

When going for the back half of the stars in the game, I probably died and failed out of a level a few /hundred/ times. I'd call that a pretty damn challenging and engaging game.

More than almost any game I've ever played, outside of, ha ha, the 2D Mario series, Galaxy is just fun to physically play. It's fun to start over from the beginning and run through the courses again and again, because there's so much packed into every square inch of every galaxy variation. You're rarely doing any one activity for long enough that it becomes a chore, and there's always something awesome visible just ahead that you're about to reach.
That's reassuring the read, thanks. I'll definitely be going for all the stars, so hopefully I end up agreeing with you.
 

Extollere

Sucks at poetry
That's not really a complaint IMO, it's more of a personal preference. I don't think that an open world of exploration is any better than linearity. They both have cons and pros that are intrinsic to the style of play. Super Mario Galaxy is pure platforming bliss. It wasn't created with open world exploration in mind. It's focused, and it's all about timing, jumping, and over coming obstacles. I think that's what they set out to do. Less exploration, more jumping on shit to beat the level. IMO it feels much more like Super Mario World to me (my favorite) than Mario 64 did, and Mario 64 is also one of my favorite games. Just enjoy it for what it is, and the way that it's obviously meant to be.
 

CoolS

Member
FoxHimself said:
Nintendo said they were going to up the difficulty substansially and compared it to Super Mario World.

I know, I'm just still sceptical if it will be enough.
 

ZZMitch

Member
See people, opinions can be wrong! :D

Naw, I am kidding, I played Super Mario Galaxy for the first time when I got a Wii this Christmas, and at the beginning I agreed with you. But as I progressed through the game I began to really appreciate the linear paths.
 

Shiggy

Member
AniHawk said:
Uh, SMG's linear design is one of the really good things about the game.

Absolutely. I actually disliked SM64 for its non-linear game design (and for its controls in the DS version as well as for everything; I did not like SM64).

What I think SM64 (and also SMS) did better than SMG was the hub world.
 
Saying Mario 64 had puzzles is a huge stretch. It had things in the environment that gave you stars when you interacted with them, but figuring out how you needed to interact them was rarely, if ever, what I would call "puzzling".
 

Ranger X

Member
Well, I really don't agree with your "bad".

In Super Mario Galaxy there is still an exploration feel. You explore for other reasons than the star. And I never felt I had to explore to find stars in Mario64 anyways. The only difference is that you could do any stars in Mario64 instead of selecting one --- but to the cost that the level changes less.

Super Mario Galaxy really is the greater design imo because it focus more on the platforming to get the star than exploring to find it ---- wich makes the game more a platformer, as it should be.

.
 

mrkgoo

Member
When Mario 64 came out, I felt it wasn't really like other 2D Mario games. That said, I went in open minded and I was blown away. I'd say Mario Galaxy is more like the older Mario games in its style of lay (strict challenge levels, exploration and puzzle-solving not as big a focus). That said, I like the Mario64 style of gaming much more. Probably why I have a bit more fond memories of Mario Sunshine.
 

Jirotrom

Member
CoolS said:
The thing you describe as bad is the one thing I loved most about Mario Galaxy. I basically transferred the level structure of 2D Mario into a 3D World. I love Mario 64, but prefer the linearity of Mario Galaxy's levels. There always is a clear goa you have t rach, with hidden areas an exits thrown in, just like in 2D games.

Now they just have to crank up the difficulty a notch or galaxy 2 and I'm the luckiest gamer ever :)
thumbs up
 

selig

Banned
Always-honest said:
people and their freedom... exporation.. blah blah blah... and then what?.. walk around?
it's pure gameplay bliss.

I love Galaxy, but that´s a shit comment to make. Games with freedom and exploration are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO rare. People that want them dont deserve the ridicule you´re giving them here.

I miss exploration-focused 3d-games and im tired of the cinematic mess we have today. Still, Galaxy is perfectly fine as is.
 

Dr.Hadji

Member
selig said:
I love Galaxy, but that´s a shit comment to make. Games with freedom and exploration are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO rare. People that want them dont deserve the ridicule you´re giving them here.

I miss exploration-focused 3d-games and im tired of the cinematic mess we have today. Still, Galaxy is perfectly fine as is.

Sarcasm? And puzzles? Where are all of these Mario puzzle of which you speak.
 

Speevy

Banned
Dr.Hadji said:
Sarcasm? And puzzles? Where are all of these Mario puzzle of which you speak.




No kidding. The "puzzles" in Mario Galaxy are just as complex as those in Mario 64. You step on something, an invisible timer starts ticking, you go somewhere else very quickly.
 
selig said:
I love Galaxy, but that´s a shit comment to make. Games with freedom and exploration are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO rare. People that want them dont deserve the ridicule you´re giving them here.
Really? I feel like that's what every sandbox game from GTA on down uses as filler to replace actual content.

Galaxy is great because it's all content. You know your goals and there's no screwing about in between, and every instant of it is tuned to near perfection.
 

The Hermit

Member
AniHawk said:
Uh, SMG's linear design is one of the really good things about the game.

Pretty fucking much...hell I would say it's the best thing.

Btw, just to blow your mind, Super Mario 64 wasn't the best platformer of its gen, it was Rayman 2, basically for its linearity.
 

hyduK

Banned
Baiano19 said:
Pretty fucking much...hell I would say it's the best thing.

Btw, just to blow your mind, Super Mario 64 wasn't the best platformer of its gen, it was Rayman 2, basically for its linearity.
It was actually Banjo Kazooie.
 
BananaBomb said:
Super Mario Galaxy is the best Nintendo game ever made.
Jcgamer60 said:
Sorry Ocarina has that title.
HK-47 said:
So I'm pretty sure that is Mario Party 11
shamrock7 said:
Sorry Earthbound has that title.
SuperEnemyCrab said:
Sorry Super Metroid has that title.
Speevy said:
Sorry Pikmin 2 has that title.
gravijah said:
but twilight princess is better than ocarina
ZZMitch said:
Surely you mean Mario Kart 64?
punchout1.png
 
Lazy vs Crazy said:
Really? I feel like that's what every sandbox game from GTA on down uses as filler to replace actual content.

Galaxy is great because it's all content. You know your goals and there's no screwing about in between, and every instant of it is tuned to near perfection.

This. Who cares about more freedom when the experience is crafted so utterly brilliantly. And unlike a game that develops its 'sophistication' through plot or theme, SMG does it through play, through how it challenges what you know about platformers and then forces to reorient how you relate to what's going on screen. It's one of the most innovative, interesting and just plain good games I've ever played.
 

selig

Banned
Lazy vs Crazy said:
Really? I feel like that's what every sandbox game from GTA on down uses as filler to replace actual content.

Galaxy is great because it's all content. You know your goals and there's no screwing about in between, and every instant of it is tuned to near perfection.

Im not talking about sandbox. Theres a big difference between sandbox-games and partially non-linear games. Mario64 wasnt a non-linear game, but the level design offered non-linearity in that it let you choose where to go, which star to hunt. And it was a great feeling of exploration, freedom and adventure.
Galaxy is pure entertainment, but I prefer the Mario64-attempt.
 

DanteFox

Member
Speevy said:
No kidding. The "puzzles" in Mario Galaxy are just as complex as those in Mario 64. You step on something, an invisible timer starts ticking, you go somewhere else very quickly.
.
 
I thought I wanted the freedom of Mario 64, but Galaxy made me realise I didn't. It was absolutely masterfully crafted, and the guided experience was up there with the Half-Life 2 and Resident Evil 4s of the world.

I still appreciate the freedom that 64 gave you though. It was great to figure out how the hell to get some of the stars.
 
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