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It’s a tech demo imposing as a game.
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LTTP: Why did people poop on Ryse Son of Rome that much?
- Thread starter LordOfChaos
- Start date
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Gameplay was pretty slow and stiff compared to other character action games and the badass moments weren't nearly as dramatic and riveting. Remember we had DMC, Bayonetta, God of War, Vanquish, Metal Gear Rising, RE6, Kingdom Hearts, etc. Competition was extremely high.
Spaceman292
Banned
Why do people keep saying it's nothing but QTEs? It's just not true. You hit guys with light attacks, heavy attacks, and parries, and once they're weakened you do one of four colour coded finishers. If you hit the right colour then you get a boost to one of your meters.
01011001
Banned
the whole fighting system is so ridiculously unresponsive and static that it might as well be a QTE.
there's zero depth there, and there's no real flow to your moves.
it's hard to describe without literally doing a whole breakdown on how a good fighting system works, and then contrasting it with Ryse's system.
if I'm bored later today maybe I'll make a more elaborate post lol, all about damage boxes, hitboxes, frame values, stagger values etc.
Spaceman292
Banned
I'm not saying it's deep. It's very simplistic, but it's not just a bunch of QTEs.
Yep its blatantly hobbled by its Kinect origins.
I dont care about that steam sale...I want my $5 back.
Nope that was Dead Rising 3.
Its the extreme lag when pressing buttons that made it feel that way Id assume.
crackajack
Member
I really liked it. My biggest problem was with the story feeling rushed, or even unfinished. Just rewriting some bits, especially towards the end, and fleshing out the main character, give him some depth and not just some generic revenge arc, could have made it a lot better. I liked the gameplay. Batman like while not having that random magnetic teleportation which way too often just doesn't work, mixed with some QTE and some almost Brutal Legend like actiony pseudo strategy game parts. Linearity is great for such games, open world garbage would have made it bad.
buenoblue
Member
Yeah I enjoyed it. That beach scene is awesome. I think people were let down by the gameplay being generic but the graphics were great and it looks amazing on PC at 4k.
Its the same with killzone shadowfall on PS4. It gets so much hate but I played it locked 1080 @60 on ps5 and it still looks better than a lot of modern games.
Its the same with killzone shadowfall on PS4. It gets so much hate but I played it locked 1080 @60 on ps5 and it still looks better than a lot of modern games.
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killatopak
Member
All I remember was all the FIFA level meme animations and bugs the game had on every showing before it was released.
The disdain must have carried over to release. If I were to compare it to something then it‘s like Mass Effect Andromeda.
The disdain must have carried over to release. If I were to compare it to something then it‘s like Mass Effect Andromeda.
Esppiral
Member
I hope you are enjoying Final Fantasy XVI
Mr Reasonable
Completely Unreasonable
Obviously caught up in the console wars, people refused to believe it looked so good and were desperate to find flaws, is how I remember it. It's biggest crime was basically not having much to show after the first ten minutes. It sort of played like a Batman brawler but without anything but the most basic of moves.
I think if they'd actually developed the combat it could have been a reasonable game. As is, it was too repetitive and boring for me.
I think if they'd actually developed the combat it could have been a reasonable game. As is, it was too repetitive and boring for me.
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StueyDuck
Member
I guess you haven't played either game then
existensmaximum
Member
I really wanted to like it but I was really put off by the QTE stuff and overall gameplay. It just felt extremely mediocre, repetitive and boring.
Maybe it the story would have been amazing or something but.. No?
Maybe it the story would have been amazing or something but.. No?
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YeulEmeralda
Member
Ideally BOTW is the perfect launch game.
But games like Ryse, Godfall, Knack, etc all fill their purpose as being something to play while you wait for the gen to really begin.
Launch games that can be considered classics are pretty rare.
Moriarty1889
Member
I enjoyed Ryse. It received the hate it got due to the Xbox One/Don Mattrick hate going on at launch time. The graphics were incredible and the set pieces were beautiful as well. Would love to see a proper sequel.
anthraticus
Banned
Cause it sucked nuts ?
Go play Shadow of Rome
Go play Shadow of Rome
Stare-Bear
Banned
It was a stunning tech demo...
Ryse received shitty opinion because, like many Crytek games, Ryse has more depth than you might think, but since this depth is not mandatory, you can beat Ryse like a mediocre QTE game.
Crysis was the same, people said "It a tech demo you can beat doing cloak- engaged most of the time".
Crysis was the same, people said "It a tech demo you can beat doing cloak- engaged most of the time".
Krappadizzle
Member
I think this is a very good summary.
LordOfChaos
Member
Ideally BOTW is the perfect launch game.
But games like Ryse, Godfall, Knack, etc all fill their purpose as being something to play while you wait for the gen to really begin.
In full fairness BoTW was really a long worked on Wii U game, that was about completed but they kept delaying it and delaying it and even stripping out Wii U features so that it could become a Switch launch game
Shut0wen
Member
Its a decent game for what it is, my only issue with the game was how short it was and lack of enemy variation, other then that its ok
Esppiral
Member
22h in FFXVI and finished Ryse back in the day...I guess you haven't played either game then
Games of Today
Member
I see a lot of people calling it a tech demo. Sure, that's basically what it is but there are good versions of these kind of games and bad ones.
I haven't played this game but I think it's pretty sick. There's nothing wrong with 5-6 hour games with high cinematic value. Uncharted 1 was like that and I love it.
The Order 1886 is another one. Outstanding game.
Now take Hogwarts Legacy, another glorified tech demo. That game looks pretty cool but feels like a god damn chore to play. In my opinion it's a bad "tech demo" game.
I haven't played this game but I think it's pretty sick. There's nothing wrong with 5-6 hour games with high cinematic value. Uncharted 1 was like that and I love it.
The Order 1886 is another one. Outstanding game.
Now take Hogwarts Legacy, another glorified tech demo. That game looks pretty cool but feels like a god damn chore to play. In my opinion it's a bad "tech demo" game.
CuteFaceJay
Member
I think it might have been a 'Wrong time fool' situation.
StueyDuck
Member
and you genuinely think that they both play the exact same and that FFXVI is only QTE based combat? after 22 hours you feel you've only done QTEs in FFXVIs combat is essentially what you are saying
i need an answer to this to know how seriously to take anything you say going forward
Esppiral
Member
Where did I say that? lol, I won't argue with someone that makes things up, I only implied that the game has a lot of qte's no that I've only played qte's...
StueyDuck
Member
Then you haven't played ryse because the QTEs in FFXVI are pretty much exclusive to boss fights and with a couple
Where as ryse entire combat system is built around qte. The characters glow the corresponding color to the button you must hit, with every fight and every enemy.
So are you willing to admit you are being disingenuous with the FFXVI comparison, I don't think anyone else would describe it as "qte the game" where as many people, as you see In this very thread, felt that way about ryse...
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01011001
Banned
Because Capcom already made a better Rome game:
we need a remaster of this. it runs pretty well on PCSX2, but the fake motion blur they added is fucking annoying.
that was clearly designed for CRTs
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
For those of you who only gone by images ya it looked good as a launch game.
But if you ever saw it in motion or played it, it had a sub-30 fps most of the time and had really janky animations like the characters would warp around were missing animations.
But if you ever saw it in motion or played it, it had a sub-30 fps most of the time and had really janky animations like the characters would warp around were missing animations.
01011001
Banned
so you want completely braindead games with bad gamedesign... and are ok with them because they have "cinematic value"?
Ryse and The Order are atrocious games. they should be seen as an insult to gamedesign as a whole.
I kinda can forgive Ryse somewhat as it is a launch title and went through a full redesign really close to releas. but The Order has no excuse, that was just gamedesign diarrhea in the purest form
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Apocryphon
Member
Ryse is weird, and QTEs do make up a large central portion of the gameplay, but calling it “QTE the game” is just disingenuous. You can kill most enemies without using QTE finishing moves, bosses being the main exception.
The combo meter unlocks different tiers of finishing move, and you’re supposed to rack up a whole chain of hits, building the combo to access higher tiers of executions, which give you a variable amount of XP by tier, which you then use to unlock new perks, moves, and other executions. You’re definitely supposed to leverage the QTEs, and the combat can be repetitive, but roll dodging, timing the shield deflect.. which also had more than one variant.., and using the combat focus slow-mo ability coupled with the light and heavy attacks, and environmental hazards… it’s *slightly* deeper than some people are making out.
Visually impressive even today, some cool looking set pieces, a decent selection of locations and environments, and the Colosseum mode made it worth playing through to me. It never had $60 worth of depth, but at todays prices for somebody who likes the subject matter, it certainly isn’t the worst experience you can have
Janky animations can sometimes rear their head though.
It’s not exactly a diamond in the rough, but it had potential and part of me has always been disappointed it didn’t get a properly fleshed out sequel.
The combo meter unlocks different tiers of finishing move, and you’re supposed to rack up a whole chain of hits, building the combo to access higher tiers of executions, which give you a variable amount of XP by tier, which you then use to unlock new perks, moves, and other executions. You’re definitely supposed to leverage the QTEs, and the combat can be repetitive, but roll dodging, timing the shield deflect.. which also had more than one variant.., and using the combat focus slow-mo ability coupled with the light and heavy attacks, and environmental hazards… it’s *slightly* deeper than some people are making out.
Visually impressive even today, some cool looking set pieces, a decent selection of locations and environments, and the Colosseum mode made it worth playing through to me. It never had $60 worth of depth, but at todays prices for somebody who likes the subject matter, it certainly isn’t the worst experience you can have
Janky animations can sometimes rear their head though. It’s not exactly a diamond in the rough, but it had potential and part of me has always been disappointed it didn’t get a properly fleshed out sequel.
01011001
Banned
yes it is.
what Ryse did is basically copy Batman, but without all the nuances that Batman's system has, like the rhythmic nature of it and the nicely flowing animations. and instead of being a game with multiple core gameplay pillars like Batman, Ryse is only fighting and gimmicky stuff like the shield walls.
what happens if you fight in Ryse?
well, you hit 1 of 4 buttons that have 1 purpose and 1 purpose only per button.
you have your attack button, your block break button, your parry button and your dodge button.
if you press your attack button, your character gets automatically locked on to an enemy. your character will automatically run towards the enemy and then perform an attack animation.
this attack does the same thing every hit. there's no combos, there's no dynamism, there's most likely not even a damage box being created (hard to say without knowing how it's coded, but practically speaking there is no damage box)
here's how fighting in a good game works, like DMC3 for example.
if you press your attack button, multiple things happen behind the curtains so to speak.
1: a predictable animation gets started. predictable is important because having cntrol over your attacks is key in a Character Action game.
2: a damage box gets spawned in that is roughly shaped and sized to match whatever your current attack does. a damage box is basically like a hitbox/collision box that determines if you hit something or not.
3: any enemy that collides with the damage box will react to touching the damage box according to its own stats and the values the damage box has.
4: a timer starts ticking that is your window in which the game will react to your next input. and depending on what your next input is different combos/moves immerge.
____________
so let's say you fight a really basic enemy in DMC3, Bayonetta, Godhand or any similar game.
you press an attack button and perform a normal slash.
lets say that normal slash has an attack value of 10, you do 10 damage to the enemy who has a health pool of 200.
pretty basic... but that's not all an attack in such a game does. this is where the dynamism comes in.
a damage box generated by an attack in actually good fighting systems have more than just damage values.
let's look at this imaginary attack again, but now with all its values:
it has 10 Damage, 5 Stagger, 5 Knockback
the enemy has 200 HP, and 10 Stagger resistance.
the damage box spawned in by your attack collides with the enemy and the enemy gets deducted 10 damage and nothing else happens.
Now the second attack in your combo does 15 Damage, 5 Stagger, 10 Knockback + launch.
damage box spawns in, collides with the enemy, deducts 15 health, like the first attack in the combo...
but now the 5 Stagger from the first attack and the 5 Stagger from your second one add up and break through the Stagger resistance of your enemy.
due to your enemy now being staggered, the rest of the values of the damage box now become relevant.
your attack has 10 Knockback + Launch.
that means your enemy gets either A: thown into the air, opening him up for some juggles or air combos. and when he comes back down he will land flat on the ground and has to get up again, making him vulnerable for attacks... or B: if the enemy has specific weight values that prevents him from being launched, only the Knockback will be applied and the enemy is getting knocked into an open and vulnerable state for an amount of time determined by another value of the enemy or the damage box (different per game)
this was a simple example, and stuff like this gets more and more intricate depending on game, enemy types and unlocked abilities.
add to that frame values, like how many frames until the damage box spawns, how many active frames does the damage box have, how many frames are you vulnerable should you miss your attack etc.
also the presence of a damage box for an attack is vital, as that way the game is automatically more dynamic in nature, as multiple enemies can collide with it at the same time, making your attacks feel like they actually happen and have a real effect on the game world.
like one of the enemies that collided with your damage box might have a low weight value and gets flung into the air, while the other is too heavy and only gets staggered, this happens at the same time and now opens the situation up for multiple strategies simply through very basic stuff like this.
_______
going back to Ryse. there are no stagger values, no Knockback values, no combos, no damage boxes that could create dynamic scenarios where you hit multiple enemies with a well placed attack.
non of this exists.
staggering an enemy in Ryse is you pressing Y when the enemy AI decides to not be attackable anymore by pressing X.
so you press Y and now the enemy is attackable again and you spam X until you can do a finisher.
if an enemy does an attack animation you just press A and then spam X.
if an enemy blinks red you press B and then spam X
then the skull shows up and you do your QTE.
that's the combat... that's all there's to it.
and that's why it's basically a QTE.
you could visualise every enemy encounter in Ryse as a QTE and it wouldn't really change the combat even a bit.
just imagine if an enemy stands there he has a big "Mash X" icon over his head, then while you mash X suddenly he has a "Press Y" icon over his head, once you pressed Y he has the "Mash X" icon again, suddenly a "Press B" icon appears, you press B, and the "Mash X" icon is back. then after you've done that for a while a "Press RT" icon shows up and the finisher animations begins where pressing the correct button is now optional.
your attack will only ever (automatically) target 1 enemy and 1 enemy only, no room for any dynamically occuring moments here by well placed attacks.
that is a typical fight in Ryse. most of its other mechanics are window dressing.
just to show how big of a difference there is between other games with good fighting systems,
DmC was slammed by fans because it forced you to use specific weapons against some enemies... mind you each of those weapons on their own have more depth, strategy, and dynamic potential than the whole of Ryse's fighting system, but DmC players felt restricted by arbitrarily colour coding stuff that doesn't add any depth or challenge to the game and instead takes depth away.
Just to be clear tho. not every game needs DMC4 levels of depth, not every fighting system needs to be extremely dynamic...
but if the game has zero meaningful mechanics and gameplay variations outside of fighting, then being as ridiculously static, simple, and devoid of startegy as Ryse, becomes an issue.
Breath of the Wild has a more nuanced fighting system than Ryse, and that game is an open world Action Adventure with exploration, puzzles, item management etc. so it doesn't even full focus on the combat mechanics, those are just one of many things in the game, so it wouldn't even need to have more than the most basic combat... yet it still does.
Ryse's even simpler combat is all the game has to offer.
Hell I would go as far as to say that even Ocarina of Time's combat has more nuance than Ryse.
Fighting a Stalfos or Iron Knuckle needs more thought than most fights in Ryse. even in boss battles you mostly can win without even moving your left stick once in Ryse...
it's just hitting corresponding buttons, like in a QTE
there is no "oh I'm going to dodge to the left here and then run around him and attack from behind" or any startegy like that, as attacks are canned, auto aiming sequences where directions don't matter.
this was a wall of text, and it's hard to make it easy to get across what I'm saying without visual aids making it more clear... so imma stop rambling now.
just to drive it all home, here's the optimal way to beat every boss in Ryse... now tell me this isn't a QTE system (the end is especially funny)
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Bulletbrain
Member
The lackluster gameplay was what keeps it from being a good game imo. Look at your own commentary. Even from someone who is very positive on the game, your commentary on the gameplay (arguably the most important factor in a game, even by today's graphics obsessed standard) reads pretty much like an afterthought. It's "repetitive", it's "fine". That's not what usually defines a great video game. You would have written more on the gameplay, combat and other systems instead of reducing it to a single sentence, if it was actually something great and engaging.
Spaceman292
Banned
yes it is.
what Ryse did is basically copy Batman, but without all the nuances that Batman's system has, like the rhythmic nature of it and the nicely flowing animations. and instead of being a game with multiple core gameplay pillars like Batman, Ryse is only fighting and gimmicky stuff like the shield walls.
what happens if you fight in Ryse?
well, you hit 1 of 4 buttons that have 1 purpose and 1 purpose only per button.
you have your attack button, your block break button, your parry button and your dodge button.
if you press your attack button, your character gets automatically locked on to an enemy. your character will automatically run towards the enemy and then perform an attack animation.
this attack does the same thing every hit. there's no combos, there's no dynamism, there's most likely not even a damage box being created (hard to say without knowing how it's coded, but practically speaking there is no damage box)
here's how fighting in a good game works, like DMC3 for example.
if you press your attack button, multiple things happen behind the curtains so to speak.
1: a predictable animation gets started. predictable is important because having cntrol over your attacks is key in a Character Action game.
2: a damage box gets spawned in that is roughly shaped and sized to match whatever your current attack does. a damage box is basically like a hitbox/collision box that determines if you hit something or not.
3: any enemy that collides with the damage box will react to touching the damage box according to its own stats and the values the damage box has.
4: a timer starts ticking that is your window in which the game will react to your next input. and depending on what your next input is different combos/moves immerge.
____________
so let's say you fight a really basic enemy in DMC3, Bayonetta, Godhand or any similar game.
you press an attack button and perform a normal slash.
lets say that normal slash has an attack value of 10, you do 10 damage to the enemy who has a health pool of 200.
pretty basic... but that's not all an attack in such a game does. this is where the dynamism comes in.
a damage box generated by an attack in actually good fighting systems have more than just damage values.
let's look at this imaginary attack again, but now with all its values:
it has 10 Damage, 5 Stagger, 5 Knockback
the enemy has 200 HP, and 10 Stagger resistance.
the damage box spawned in by your attack collides with the enemy and the enemy gets deducted 10 damage and nothing else happens.
Now the second attack in your combo does 15 Damage, 5 Stagger, 10 Knockback + launch.
damage box spawns in, collides with the enemy, deducts 15 health, like the first attack in the combo...
but now the 5 Stagger from the first attack and the 5 Stagger from your second one add up and break through the Stagger resistance of your enemy.
due to your enemy now being staggered, the rest of the values of the damage box now become relevant.
your attack has 10 Knockback + Launch.
that means your enemy gets either A: thown into the air, opening him up for some juggles or air combos. and when he comes back down he will land flat on the ground and has to get up again, making him vulnerable for attacks... or B: if the enemy has specific weight values that prevents him from being launched, only the Knockback will be applied and the enemy is getting knocked into an open and vulnerable state for an amount of time determined by another value of the enemy or the damage box (different per game)
this was a simple example, and stuff like this gets more and more intricate depending on game, enemy types and unlocked abilities.
add to that frame values, like how many frames until the damage box spawns, how many active frames does the damage box have, how many frames are you vulnerable should you miss your attack etc.
also the presence of a damage box for an attack is vital, as that way the game is automatically more dynamic in nature, as multiple enemies can collide with it at the same time, making your attacks feel like they actually happen and have a real effect on the game world.
like one of the enemies that collided with your damage box might have a low weight value and gets flung into the air, while the other is too heavy and only gets staggered, this happens at the same time and now opens the situation up for multiple strategies simply through very basic stuff like this.
_______
going back to Ryse. there are no stagger values, no Knockback values, no combos, no damage boxes that could create dynamic scenarios where you hit multiple enemies with a well placed attack.
non of this exists.
staggering an enemy in Ryse is you pressing Y when the enemy AI decides to not be attackable anymore by pressing X.
so you press Y and now the enemy is attackable again and you spam X until you can do a finisher.
if an enemy does an attack animation you just press A and then spam X.
if an enemy blinks red you press B and then spam X
then the skull shows up and you do your QTE.
that's the combat... that's all there's to it.
and that's why it's basically a QTE.
you could visualise every enemy encounter in Ryse as a QTE and it wouldn't really change the combat even a bit.
just imagine if an enemy stands there he has a big "Mash X" icon over his head, then while you mash X suddenly he has a "Press Y" icon over his head, once you pressed Y he has the "Mash X" icon again, suddenly a "Press B" icon appears, you press B, and the "Mash X" icon is back. then after you've done that for a while a "Press RT" icon shows up and the finisher animations begins where pressing the correct button is now optional.
your attack will only ever (automatically) target 1 enemy and 1 enemy only, no room for any dynamically occuring moments here by well placed attacks.
that is a typical fight in Ryse. most of its other mechanics are window dressing.
just to show how big of a difference there is between other games with good fighting systems,
DmC was slammed by fans because it forced you to use specific weapons against some enemies... mind you each of those weapons on their own have more depth, strategy, and dynamic potential than the whole of Ryse's fighting system, but DmC players felt restricted by arbitrarily colour coding stuff that doesn't add any depth or challenge to the game and instead takes depth away.
Just to be clear tho. not every game needs DMC4 levels of depth, not every fighting system needs to be extremely dynamic...
but if the game has zero meaningful mechanics and gameplay variations outside of fighting, then being as ridiculously static, simple, and devoid of startegy as Ryse, becomes an issue.
Breath of the Wild has a more nuanced fighting system than Ryse, and that game is an open world Action Adventure with exploration, puzzles, item management etc. so it doesn't even full focus on the combat mechanics, those are just one of many things in the game, so it wouldn't even need to have more than the most basic combat... yet it still does.
Ryse's even simpler combat is all the game has to offer.
Hell I would go as far as to say that even Ocarina of Time's combat has more nuance than Ryse.
Fighting a Stalfos or Iron Knuckle needs more thought than most fights in Ryse. even in boss battles you mostly can win without even moving your left stick once in Ryse...
it's just hitting corresponding buttons, like in a QTE
there is no "oh I'm going to dodge to the left here and then run around him and attack from behind" or any startegy like that, as attacks are canned, auto aiming sequences where directions don't matter.
this was a wall of text, and it's hard to make it easy to get across what I'm saying without visual aids making it more clear... so imma stop rambling now.
just to drive it all home, here's the optimal way to beat every boss in Ryse... now tell me this isn't a QTE system (the end is especially funny)
Honestly I didn't read all of this but you sound much more informed than me. I just played it once about 5 years ago and thought it was pretty fun.
veterangamerUK
Member
And how is that different to certain other games which end up getting awards?
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