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[Condom]

You don't have to like the opposition or support America's obvious egoistical meddling to criticize Maduro and the corrupt army leadership.

If anything he is helping America and the liberals with his shenanigans. The 'revolution' has already been ruined anyway, you can't ride the Chavez train forever without maturing the movement (lol @ PSUV's Twitter banner) and I suspect that many in the party leadership were high on success. No way educated people could not have seen this coming in normal conditions.

 

[Boylamite]

The media is crazy in how Venezuela is covered. These attacks were from the opposition party. (Opposition party who is completely backed by the US) It seems that the best course of action is to constantly have the opposition attack and protest while having the media portray it as another one of Maduros dirty tricks. It is seriously discouraging when so much of the western media continue to question when will Maduro step down. He was democratically elected by his own people and last I checked is very popular there. He is somewhere in the 60's of approval ratings. More popular than the Mexican president, Colombian president and the illegitimate Michel Temer of Brazil yet Venezuela is always on the cross hairs for regime change. The constituent assembly is radical for several reasons but the most frightening to the west is the fact that it gives more power to the people in decision making and planning for local areas in Valenzuela. The opposition is ENCOURAGED to join in on the assembly but they want no part in it. Gee I wonder why?..
I have family friends out there in Venezuela and the one constant thing they hate about the media is how they don't cover things straight. The Bolivarian revolution is popular for a reason and I can see why the West is frightened by that..

There is no way this person is posting this in good faith. I am getting so goddamned tired of these people.

 

[torta_smasher]

There is no way this person is posting this in good faith. I am getting so goddamned tired of these people.

Or maybe just ignorance?
Please disregard my earlier posts. I wasn't as well versed as maybe I thought I was. And for that I apologize to all who I offended.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

The media is crazy in how Venezuela is covered. These attacks were from the opposition party. (Opposition party who is completely backed by the US) It seems that the best course of action is to constantly have the opposition attack and protest while having the media portray it as another one of Maduros dirty tricks. It is seriously discouraging when so much of the western media continue to question when will Maduro step down. He was democratically elected by his own people and last I checked is very popular there. He is somewhere in the 60's of approval ratings. More popular than the Mexican president, Colombian president and the illegitimate Michel Temer of Brazil yet Venezuela is always on the cross hairs for regime change. The constituent assembly is radical for several reasons but the most frightening to the west is the fact that it gives more power to the people in decision making and planning for local areas in Valenzuela. The opposition is ENCOURAGED to join in on the assembly but they want no part in it. Gee I wonder why?..
I have family friends out there in Venezuela and the one constant thing they hate about the media is how they don't cover things straight. The Bolivarian revolution is popular for a reason and I can see why the West is frightened by that..

I'm sure his popularity is what's causing what appears to be the biggest humanitarian crisis in Latin America in years, plus the biggest refugee crisis Colombia has had to deal with.

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

Smash the State

 

[Jimothy]

I'm a socialist, and i believe in democracy, i think the only way to stability in Venezuela is fair elections, i think the power should be given to the people to choose the next president.

Maduro won the presidency in a UN sanctioned, democratic election by a margin of 1.43% in 2013. If you call yourself a socialist you would be defending the Maduro government unconditionally against its imperialist and reactionary opponents.

Also, I'm gonna need a better source on this story than NIkki Fucking Haley.

 

[And_Gignac]

I'm sure his popularity is what's causing what appears to be the biggest humanitarian crisis in Latin America in years, plus the biggest refugee crisis Colombia has had to deal with.

This rethoric is just precious when you have EPN's México, Nicaragua and plenty of other examples. Just rich.

 

[kess]

Part of me gets it. Looking at history, Socialism is a pretty discredited ideology. If you identify as a Socialist, there really aren't really any cases of it working outside of Scandinavia (which is very Capitalist, just with a large safety net). So you cling onto what you can get, and when oil was at its peak, Venezuela was a pretty good thing to cling onto.

Now that being said (and to make myself look like a massive hypocrite), this shouldn't be about ideology. This is a dictator tearing his nation apart in a desperate attempt to hold onto power, and we should support a peaceful transfer of power. Unfortunately, this will probably not end up that way.

Then again, how many of these message board socialists know anything about Eduard Bernstein?

 

[ibyea]

Maduro won the presidency in a UN sanctioned, democratic election by a margin of 1.43% in 2013. If you call yourself a socialist you would be defending the Maduro government unconditionally against its imperialist and reactionary opponents.

Also, I'm gonna need a better source on this story than NIkki Fucking Haley.

And that very same government has been screwing over the constitution, which ironically enough they created for the fifth republic.

 

[shamanick]

I'm not sure who's telling the truth here due to conflicting reports from reputable news agencies, but all I'll say is if you accept what the US government says about socialist governments in South America without question then you should read some history.

 

[Condom]

Then again, how many of these message board socialists know anything about Eduard Bernstein?

He killed Rosa Luxemburg, he is pretty well known (and disliked).

 

[Jimothy]

The media is crazy in how Venezuela is covered. These attacks were from the opposition party. (Opposition party who is completely backed by the US) It seems that the best course of action is to constantly have the opposition attack and protest while having the media portray it as another one of Maduros dirty tricks. It is seriously discouraging when so much of the western media continue to question when will Maduro step down. He was democratically elected by his own people and last I checked is very popular there. He is somewhere in the 60's of approval ratings. More popular than the Mexican president, Colombian president and the illegitimate Michel Temer of Brazil yet Venezuela is always on the cross hairs for regime change. The constituent assembly is radical for several reasons but the most frightening to the west is the fact that it gives more power to the people in decision making and planning for local areas in Valenzuela. The opposition is ENCOURAGED to join in on the assembly but they want no part in it. Gee I wonder why?..
I have family friends out there in Venezuela and the one constant thing they hate about the media is how they don't cover things straight. The Bolivarian revolution is popular for a reason and I can see why the West is frightened by that..

It's honestly astounding how greedily even supposed leftists lap up Western propaganda on Venezuela. Most of the protests are occurring in the rich neighborhoods of the major cities. The vast majority of people, aka the poor who have benefitted IMMENSELY from Social Democratic policies still support the government and its policies. Everyone is so keen on social democratic policies like free healthcare and subsidized housing in Western imperialist countries, but the minute an historically impoverished and oppressed country tries it it's suddenly anathema to everything Liberals hold dear.

 

[SirClinksAlot]

It's honestly astounding how greedily even supposed leftists lap up Western propaganda on Venezuela. Most of the protests are occurring in the rich neighborhoods of the major cities. The vast majority of people, aka the poor who have benefitted IMMENSELY from Social Democratic policies still support the government and its policies. Everyone is so keen on social democratic policies like free healthcare and subsidized housing in Western imperialist countries, but the minute an historically impoverished and oppressed country tries it it's suddenly anathema to everything Liberals hold dear.

So are you just ignoring what actual Venezuelan gaffers have said, or what?

 

[Alucrid]

It's honestly astounding how greedily even supposed leftists lap up Western propaganda on Venezuela. Most of the protests are occurring in the rich neighborhoods of the major cities. The vast majority of people, aka the poor who have benefitted IMMENSELY from Social Democratic policies still support the government and its policies. Everyone is so keen on social democratic policies like free healthcare and subsidized housing in Western imperialist countries, but the minute an historically impoverished and oppressed country tries it it's suddenly anathema to everything Liberals hold dear.

when you ignore 50 posts while replying to a thread

 

[Deleted member 80556]

This rethoric is just precious when you have EPN's México, Nicaragua and plenty of other examples. Just rich.

You're right, I don't mean to minimize other people's suffering that way. Sorry man.

 

[kirblar]

I'm not sure who's telling the truth here due to conflicting reports from reputable news agencies, but all I'll say is if you accept what the US government says about socialist governments in South America without question then you should read some history.

"I don't want to say outright that these are made up stories, so I'll strongly imply it instead."

 

[shockthrill]

*Karl Marx watching how communism and socialism developed in the 20th and 21st century

 

[shamanick]

"I don't want to say outright that these are made up stories, so I'll strongly imply it instead."

I was specifically referring to the violence today, not to anyone's experiences shared here.

 

[Monocle]

Oh and Torta Smasher is a junior member who joined in 2011 and has only recently started posting regularly. Amazing how many of these completely legitimate conversationalists have so many opinions about the US and its corrupt media.

Spoken like a decadent Western tart muncher! Plug your scone hole with more pies and cakes you filthy imperialist!

 

[Jimothy]

So are you just ignoring what actual Venezuelan gaffers have said, or what?

I assume any Gaffer with access to internet and a paid-for e-mail address in Venezuela is a part of the upper middle class, which hasn't really benefitted that much from the government's policies compared to the working and poor classes.

 

[ibyea]

It's honestly astounding how greedily even supposed leftists lap up Western propaganda on Venezuela. Most of the protests are occurring in the rich neighborhoods of the major cities. The vast majority of people, aka the poor who have benefitted IMMENSELY from Social Democratic policies still support the government and its policies. Everyone is so keen on social democratic policies like free healthcare and subsidized housing in Western imperialist countries, but the minute an historically impoverished and oppressed country tries it it's suddenly anathema to everything Liberals hold dear.

What? It's not a lie. I know people that live there, since I used to live there. They have no food and they have no medicine. The poor is getting nothing from this, all right? Nothing.

Also, poor people own cell phones and go to internet caffes, which are plentiful if I remember right. So don't be so presumptuous.

 

[kirblar]

I was specifically referring to the violence today, not to anyone's experiences shared here.

I'm aware. (stories = news reports of today's events in this context) Comment still stands.

 

[chepu]

So are you just ignoring what actual Venezuelan gaffers have said, or what?

You know what is worst of all, there are lots of us onGAF who have to read this bullshit.

In exile, being poor AF #datimmigrantlife meanwhile concerned for our family and their safety.

Two days ago my best friend mom almost dies from fear, maduro collectives and national guard broke into the apartment complex they live and shot,burned cars and broke the facilities.

In a low class area..yeah.

My brother had health issues because they had to buy smuggled food and it happened to be bad.

FFS whats left of my friends and family are skinny af and unhealthy

 

[Jebusman]

I assume any Gaffer with access to internet and a paid-for e-mail address in Venezuela is a part of the upper middle class, which hasn't really benefitted that much from the government's policies compared to the working and poor classes.

I want you to understand you're about 2 steps away from the Fox News "99.6% of households own a fridge" level of trying to dismiss a problem with an unrelated quip.

 

[shockthrill]

lets be honest the only people defending this disgusting regime are privileged white american college kids with their che shirts or their soviet iconography, spouting Lacan, Marx, etc. or whatever while sipping a lotto at starbucks while they go around spending their money with daddy's trustfund

 

[Condom]

It's honestly astounding how greedily even supposed leftists lap up Western propaganda on Venezuela. Most of the protests are occurring in the rich neighborhoods of the major cities. The vast majority of people, aka the poor who have benefitted IMMENSELY from Social Democratic policies still support the government and its policies. Everyone is so keen on social democratic policies like free healthcare and subsidized housing in Western imperialist countries, but the minute an historically impoverished and oppressed country tries it it's suddenly anathema to everything Liberals hold dear.

Well actually the rich are eating, pretty sure it's the middle class that is revolting. The (rural) poor have no alternative because they know a possible liberal government will fuck them over anyway. Desperately hoping on the return of the good times.

You are holding on to oil social democracy as if that would have worked forever if not for the economic sabotage. That's not very socialist of you.

It is true that the libs were salty during the good years but right now that argument is void now.

People should have learned from Allende. There was a manufactured (CIA) food crisis there but they were competent enough to still deliver bread to the people.

You will always be sabotaged as long as the US of A exists but it is our responsibility as political actors to successfully resist and do crisis management. People need food, it's called materialism.

 

[kess]

He killed Rosa Luxemburg, he is pretty well known (and disliked).

Next you'll be telling me how Chavez and Maduro failed the social revolution... or was that America's fault?

Yeah, I thought so

 

[Jimothy]

What? It's not a lie. I know people that live there, since I used to live there. They have no food and they have no medicine. The poor is getting nothing from this, all right? Nothing.

I went to Venezuela last summer with my ex-girlfriend. I saw the bread lines, the lack of toilet paper in public restrooms, the INSANE hyperinflation. My ex-girlfriend's cousins were selling sugar in bulk on the black market, making a pretty decent profit. The workers I talked to (in broken Spanish) were almost unanimous in their support of the government, but most thought that Maduro couldn't hold Chavez's bath water. However, they still benefitted from heavily subsidized apartments, access to healthcare, and pretty much every older person I spoke with was living on a sizable government pension. Yeah, most of the non-essential commodities were incredibly expensive, but most people still have basic supplies because of the rationing system.

 

[Condom]

Next you'll be telling me how Chavez and Maduro failed the social revolution... or was that America's fault?

?

SPD being traitors vs Rosa is mainstream socialist thought. It's even a meme now. You can read the post literally above yours to learn about my views on the bolivarian revolution.

I find it interesting among many young socialists, that they will go at many lengths to defend dictatorships and brutal rule, if it opposes "western imperialism" even though supporting that dictatorship goes completely against what Karl Marx would want

and then these are the same people that go "well the Soviet Union wasn't actually real Marxism, so you can't say communism has never been tried blah blah blah" while sporting a Hammer and Sickle aesthetic

I think you are confusing different factions.

Anarchists and Trotsky supporters would argue that the Soviet Union wasn't Marxist, others are either full supporters till the end or recognize the shift to 'revisionism' during Khrushchev. The last group is more likely to be full on Assad support because 'anti-imperialism'.

 

[shockthrill]

I went to Venezuela last summer with my ex-girlfriend. I saw the bread lines, the lack of toilet paper in public restrooms, the INSANE hyperinflation. My ex-girlfriend's cousins were selling sugar in bulk on the black market, making a pretty decent profit. The workers I talked to (in broken Spanish) were almost unanimous in their support of the government, but most thought that Maduro couldn't hold Chavez's bath water. However, they still benefitted from heavily subsidized apartments, access to healthcare, and pretty much every older person I spoke with was living on a sizable government pension. Yeah, most of the non-essential commodities were incredibly expensive, but most people still have basic supplies because of the rationing system.

I find it interesting among many young socialists, that they will go at many lengths to defend dictatorships and brutal rule, if it opposes "western imperialism" even though supporting that dictatorship goes completely against what Karl Marx would want

and then these are the same people that go "well the Soviet Union wasn't actually real Marxism, so you can't say communism has never been tried blah blah blah" while sporting a Hammer and Sickle aesthetic

 

[Earthbound64]

My ex-girlfriend's cousins were selling sugar in bulk on the black market, making a pretty decent profit.

most people still have basic supplies because of the rationing system.

"Selling sugar in bulk on the black market, making a decent profit"
"Most people still have basic supplies"

This has to be a joke, right?

 

[shockthrill]

"Selling sugar in bulk on the black market, making a decent profit"
"Most people still have basic supplies"

This has to be a joke, right?

"but but western imperalism"

 

[Jimothy]

I find it interesting among many young socialists, that they will go at many lengths to defend dictatorships and brutal rule, if it opposes "western imperialism" even though supporting that dictatorship goes completely against what Karl Marx would want

and then these are the same people that go "well the Soviet Union wasn't actually real Marxism, so you can't say communism has never been tried blah blah blah" while sporting a Hammer and Sickle aesthetic

Again, the Maduro government came to power via a DEMOCRATIC ELECTION by less than 2 percent of the vote, hardly the margins of a dictatorial madman. Is that really so hard to grasp for some people?

 

[shockthrill]

Again, the Maduro government came to power via a DEMOCRATIC ELECTION by less than 2 percent of the vote, hardly the margins of a dictatorial madman. Is that really so hard to grasp for some people?

you know who else won a democratic election

Trump

that doesn't mean we can't criticize him for being a complete incompetent idiot

 

[TTOOLL]

That's Socialism for you, folks. As always, people in charge will do whatever it takes to stay in power while the population starves and dies by the hands of the state.

 

[ForkNetwork]

"but but western imperalism"

This is what annoys me the most, watching every Maduro supporter blame EVERYTHING on the US. Venezuela as a country is imploding as we speak, but they still find a way to blame one country and how everything is their fault.

We could speak for hours about other governments and how US interference completely fucked them over (Allende in Chile being the example I find most interesting), but this is not the case with Venezuela. The Economic issues that country has go far beyond the us control.

 

[Jimothy]

"Selling sugar in bulk on the black market, making a decent profit"
"Most people still have basic supplies"

This has to be a joke, right?

His customers were rich people in a resort town who didn't want to wait in line at the local market. Every family I stayed with had sugar. Even the poor ones.

 

[Harl3]

The media is crazy in how Venezuela is covered. These attacks were from the opposition party. (Opposition party who is completely backed by the US) It seems that the best course of action is to constantly have the opposition attack and protest while having the media portray it as another one of Maduros dirty tricks. It is seriously discouraging when so much of the western media continue to question when will Maduro step down. He was democratically elected by his own people and last I checked is very popular there. He is somewhere in the 60's of approval ratings. More popular than the Mexican president, Colombian president and the illegitimate Michel Temer of Brazil yet Venezuela is always on the cross hairs for regime change. The constituent assembly is radical for several reasons but the most frightening to the west is the fact that it gives more power to the people in decision making and planning for local areas in Valenzuela. The opposition is ENCOURAGED to join in on the assembly but they want no part in it. Gee I wonder why?..
I have family friends out there in Venezuela and the one constant thing they hate about the media is how they don't cover things straight. The Bolivarian revolution is popular for a reason and I can see why the West is frightened by that..

IWannaToSeeTheReceipt.gif

I'm friend of Chaviztas, and they FUCKING HATE MADURO.

The constituent doens't give power to the people, it gives it to Maduro.

Our constitution SAYS that if we want to change the actual constitution then

FIRST ask to the people

Do you think that they are doing that? OFC NOT, they will lose, like the lost the last elections.
What they are doing is ILLEGAL, but they are the law, they have the weapons, they have the money, they have everything...

We are fighting with wood shields, against trained and armed military.


"I have family friends out there in Venezuela and the one constant thing they hate about the media is how they don't cover things straight. "

Well for one, if they were to cover thing straights then Maduro will shut it down.

 

[ibyea]

I went to Venezuela last summer with my ex-girlfriend. I saw the bread lines, the lack of toilet paper in public restrooms, the INSANE hyperinflation. My ex-girlfriend's cousins were selling sugar in bulk on the black market, making a pretty decent profit. The workers I talked to (in broken Spanish) were almost unanimous in their support of the government, but most thought that Maduro couldn't hold Chavez's bath water. However, they still benefitted from heavily subsidized apartments, access to healthcare, and pretty much every older person I spoke with was living on a sizable government pension. Yeah, most of the non-essential commodities were incredibly expensive, but most people still have basic supplies because of the rationing system.

Impressive. You saw all the bullshit and your take away from it was, yeah it's fine. You can talk about subsized health care, but the hospitals and clinics don't have supplies and medicine. And not having food, one of the most essential thing a human being needs, is the opposite of having security.

 

[shockthrill]

This is what annoys me the most, watching every Maduro supporter blame EVERYTHING on the US. Venezuela as a country is imploding as we speak, but they still find a way to blame one country and how everything is their fault.

We could speak for hours about other governments and how US interference completely fucked them over (Allende in Chile being the example I find most interesting), but this is not the case with Venezuela. The Economic issues that country has go far beyond the us control.

exactly we can site many times that Western and European interference fu*ked things up

but when people use "Western Imperialism" as a sort of general, catch all term to justify dictatorships, is when it gets ridiculous

 

[Earthbound64]

"but but western imperalism"

And, hey, sugar isn't a necessity, so everything must be alright!
And them having to buy sugar on the black market can't possibly be a sign of underlying problems!
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

 

[ibyea]

As a socialist, I wonder why so many leftists have to be attached to Marxist-Leninist bullshit, along with excusing any self created problem being blamed to the US (meanwhile there are real problems out there that US imperialism is creating).

 

[TheWrathOfSean]

Can't believe how cowards are the national guards in the country.

There's a tipping point where things get so bad, the people keeping the peace get more concerned for the safety of their families than that of the public.

 

[nicolasacmf]

The media is crazy in how Venezuela is covered. These attacks were from the opposition party. (Opposition party who is completely backed by the US) It seems that the best course of action is to constantly have the opposition attack and protest while having the media portray it as another one of Maduros dirty tricks. It is seriously discouraging when so much of the western media continue to question when will Maduro step down. He was democratically elected by his own people and last I checked is very popular there. He is somewhere in the 60's of approval ratings. More popular than the Mexican president, Colombian president and the illegitimate Michel Temer of Brazil yet Venezuela is always on the cross hairs for regime change. The constituent assembly is radical for several reasons but the most frightening to the west is the fact that it gives more power to the people in decision making and planning for local areas in Valenzuela. The opposition is ENCOURAGED to join in on the assembly but they want no part in it. Gee I wonder why?..
I have family friends out there in Venezuela and the one constant thing they hate about the media is how they don't cover things straight. The Bolivarian revolution is popular for a reason and I can see why the West is frightened by that..

Temer is many things and "shitty politician" is one of them, but he ain't illegitimate, bro. Comparing Maduro's regime to Temer's messy Presidential term is an insult to Venezuelans and what they're going through. Fuck outta here with this shit.

 

[Divvy]

Here's some photos from the ground for those unable to visualize that's happening.

This guy was killed

https://www.instagram.com/p/BWQ26HelxS6/?taken-by=imfpluss

I don't know how you can see images like these and still think the only ones protesting are the rich, and they're doing so with wooden shields and bullet vests made from stripped out car carpet.

 

[Valhelm]

I'm not sure who's telling the truth here due to conflicting reports from reputable news agencies, but all I'll say is if you accept what the US government says about socialist governments in South America without question then you should read some history.

Right. If you rank left-wing leaders by greatness Maduro lays pretty close to the bottom, but all signs suggest that we be incredibly careful in analyzing the situation in Venezuela. While state violence against protesters is unacceptable, the opposition includes some really frightening figures who LARP as crusaders and burn down hospitals. They also kill people.

At least one man was set on fire by right-wing demonstrators, and just this morning a legislative candidate who supported the government was shot to death. Protestors who commandeered a police helicopter lobbed grenades onto the streets of Caracas. and tried to blow up the supreme court. The most brutal segment of the Venezuelan opposition appears angrier at the goals of the United Socialist Party rather than the specific autocratic actions of Maduro and many seek to replace the state with something more capitalistic. There is no reason to believe this new government would be any more democratic, and while its policies could Venezuelans access to more foreign goods, the underlying problems with their oil export economy will not change.

Much like conflicts in Ukraine and Syria, Western observers need to be wary before picking a side. The right-wing militias our countries support are generally more brutal than the governments we seek to overthrow (just as the people of Chile, Nicaragua, and Afghanistan), and the brutal tendencies within the Venezuelan opposition suggest this is the same situation. The CIA has all-but-confirmed their involvement in the Venezuelan conflict, a development which should trouble us all.

As a socialist, I wonder why so many leftists have to be attached to Marxist-Leninist bullshit, along with excusing any self created problem being blamed to the US (meanwhile there are real problems out there that US imperialism is creating).

I have little affection the Venezuelan government or Marxism-Leninism, yet I recognize that American pressures have destabilized and harmed Venezuelan society. Right-wing revolutions almost always end terribly for most people, and there is a real possibility of the incompetent Maduro being replaced with a despot like Pinochet. Going all-in for the Venezuelan opposition is easy from the comfort of a first-world bedroom, but we need to think long and hard about to what degree these protests can help the Venezuelan people, and to what degree these protests are led by people with benevolent aims.

 

[Harl3]

There's a tipping point where things get so bad, the people keeping the peace get more concerned for the safety of their families than that of the public.

No, they enjoy it, you can see the satisfaction where they are shooting you, or beating a woman in the floor between 10 guards, or kill a dog because it barks me.

Is pretty much the same with the USA police killing black people, just that the difference is that they attack you for not having the "Carnet de la Patria".

 

[Zero-ELEC]

This rethoric is just precious when you have EPN's México, Nicaragua and plenty of other examples. Just rich.

Come off that shit, Peña Nieto is many things, but he's not fucking Maduro. They are not nearly comparable, and Maduro's regime is absolutely the worst humanitarian crisis latam has faced in a bit. That shit ain't rhetoric, that's shit's fact.

 

[Caturro]

14 people are dead but somebody needs to use it as a tool to go "socialism is good tho you gais".

Like honestly just how little fucking empathy must one have?

Uhh, state capitalism (what's presently happening in Venezuela) is NOT socialism.

 

[Vital Tundra]

Only 100 posts and this topic is a shit show.

What's happening there is beyond fucked up.