Support NeoGAF

[Stinkles]

Spoken like a decadent Western tart muncher! Plug your scone hole with more pies and cakes you filthy imperialist!

Firm but fair.

I assume any Gaffer with access to internet and a paid-for e-mail address in Venezuela is a part of the upper middle class, which hasn't really benefitted that much from the government's policies compared to the working and poor classes.

How convenient that your class of benefited people mysteriously have no voice and you can't link to any evidence to support their joy.

 

[Caturro]

Maduro won the presidency in a UN sanctioned, democratic election by a margin of 1.43% in 2013. If you call yourself a socialist you would be defending the Maduro government unconditionally against its imperialist and reactionary opponents.

Also, I'm gonna need a better source on this story than NIkki Fucking Haley.

I consider myself a socialist and Maduro's actions are anything but democratic, starting with the failed take over of the legislative branch (abandoned due to extreme international pressure) a few months ago and the incarceration of political opponents. Winning an election doesn't give you the right to do whatever the fuck you want.

 

[Rodolfo Brito]

The media is crazy in how Venezuela is covered. These attacks were from the opposition party. (Opposition party who is completely backed by the US) It seems that the best course of action is to constantly have the opposition attack and protest while having the media portray it as another one of Maduros dirty tricks. It is seriously discouraging when so much of the western media continue to question when will Maduro step down. He was democratically elected by his own people and last I checked is very popular there. He is somewhere in the 60's of approval ratings. More popular than the Mexican president, Colombian president and the illegitimate Michel Temer of Brazil yet Venezuela is always on the cross hairs for regime change. The constituent assembly is radical for several reasons but the most frightening to the west is the fact that it gives more power to the people in decision making and planning for local areas in Valenzuela. The opposition is ENCOURAGED to join in on the assembly but they want no part in it. Gee I wonder why?..
I have family friends out there in Venezuela and the one constant thing they hate about the media is how they don't cover things straight. The Bolivarian revolution is popular for a reason and I can see why the West is frightened by that..

Are you fucking insane?

 

[Frozenprince]

People stanning for the Maduro government.

And people say this site doesn't condone monsters.

 

[Violet_0]

those pics remind me a lot of Maidan

 

[Caturro]

Honestly if people are desperate to look for better "socialist" examples in South America, you don't need to look too far... Uruguay and to an extent Argentina are perfectly ok examples, countries that operate under a capitalist system but with heavy notions of the welfare state that Scandinavia popularized.

 

[NobleXenon]

The media is crazy in how Venezuela is covered. These attacks were from the opposition party. (Opposition party who is completely backed by the US) It seems that the best course of action is to constantly have the opposition attack and protest while having the media portray it as another one of Maduros dirty tricks. It is seriously discouraging when so much of the western media continue to question when will Maduro step down. He was democratically elected by his own people and last I checked is very popular there. He is somewhere in the 60's of approval ratings. More popular than the Mexican president, Colombian president and the illegitimate Michel Temer of Brazil yet Venezuela is always on the cross hairs for regime change. The constituent assembly is radical for several reasons but the most frightening to the west is the fact that it gives more power to the people in decision making and planning for local areas in Valenzuela. The opposition is ENCOURAGED to join in on the assembly but they want no part in it. Gee I wonder why?..
I have family friends out there in Venezuela and the one constant thing they hate about the media is how they don't cover things straight. The Bolivarian revolution is popular for a reason and I can see why the West is frightened by that..

Delete your account.

 

[Valhelm]

Come off that shit, Peña Nieto is many things, but he's not fucking Maduro. They are not nearly comparable, and Maduro's regime is absolutely the worst humanitarian crisis latam has faced in a bit. That shit ain't rhetoric, that's shit's fact.

Nope. Standards of living have absolutely tanked, but child malnutrition in Venezuela is dwarfed by Guatemala's 49.8% malnutrition rate.

But Guatemala plays along with the world market, so Western journalists can't blame this on any evil government and there's no money pouring into think tanks promoting regime change there.

Honestly if people are desperate to look for better "socialist" examples in South America, you don't need to look too far... Uruguay and to an extent Argentina are perfectly ok examples, countries that operate under a capitalist system but with heavy notions of the welfare state that Scandinavia popularized.

The success of Uruguay and Bolivia are both great examples for why full-on regime change is a really bad idea. I hope Maduro steps down and his successor takes steps to promote more open democracy in Venezuela, but this can't happen if a far-right junta seizes control.

 

[iamblades]

Uhh, state capitalism (what's presently happening in Venezuela) is NOT socialism.

Aww yeah, nothing beats the 'not true socialism' fallacy.

You'd think after a century of marxist shit shows people would realize that this is not a feasible method of economic organization.

 

[How About No]

People stanning for the Maduro government.

And people say this site doesn't condone monsters.

Give it time

 

[CazTGG]

Horrific. The lack of attention that has been given to what's been happening to Venezuela is unbelievable.

I have no doubt that we're going to see a massive wave of refugees fleeing this tyrant as things (likely) will continue to grow worse for Venezuelans. I sincerely hope the rest of the world won't deny them from sanctuary like certain countries have and continue with Syria's refugee crisis.

 

[Squire]

The media is crazy in how Venezuela is covered. These attacks were from the opposition party. (Opposition party who is completely backed by the US) It seems that the best course of action is to constantly have the opposition attack and protest while having the media portray it as another one of Maduros dirty tricks. It is seriously discouraging when so much of the western media continue to question when will Maduro step down. He was democratically elected by his own people and last I checked is very popular there. He is somewhere in the 60's of approval ratings. More popular than the Mexican president, Colombian president and the illegitimate Michel Temer of Brazil yet Venezuela is always on the cross hairs for regime change. The constituent assembly is radical for several reasons but the most frightening to the west is the fact that it gives more power to the people in decision making and planning for local areas in Valenzuela. The opposition is ENCOURAGED to join in on the assembly but they want no part in it. Gee I wonder why?..
I have family friends out there in Venezuela and the one constant thing they hate about the media is how they don't cover things straight. The Bolivarian revolution is popular for a reason and I can see why the West is frightened by that..

Full propaganda, "it's a conspiracy backed by the US/MSM" included. Wow.

 

[moffattron9000]

Honestly if people are desperate to look for better "socialist" examples in South America, you don't need to look too far... Uruguay and to an extent Argentina are perfectly ok examples, countries that operate under a capitalist system but with heavy notions of the welfare state that Scandinavia popularized.

Doesn't Argentina have a centre-right government after the left-wing populist Kirschner government fell apart due to corruption, economic malaise, and massive protests?

 

[Garuroh]

I assume any Gaffer with access to internet and a paid-for e-mail address in Venezuela is a part of the upper middle class, which hasn't really benefitted that much from the government's policies compared to the working and poor classes.

His customers were rich people in a resort town who didn't want to wait in line at the local market. Every family I stayed with had sugar. Even the poor ones.

Your view of poor people is totally fucked up. Poor people can have internet, it's a need at this point, not a luxury. Also having sugar means they are okay? when sugar is very cheap and poor people can afford it? You are acting like people only need food and water to survive, as if they were animals and not humans.

 

[TTOOLL]

The media is crazy in how Venezuela is covered. These attacks were from the opposition party. (Opposition party who is completely backed by the US) It seems that the best course of action is to constantly have the opposition attack and protest while having the media portray it as another one of Maduros dirty tricks. It is seriously discouraging when so much of the western media continue to question when will Maduro step down. He was democratically elected by his own people and last I checked is very popular there. He is somewhere in the 60's of approval ratings. More popular than the Mexican president, Colombian president and the illegitimate Michel Temer of Brazil yet Venezuela is always on the cross hairs for regime change. The constituent assembly is radical for several reasons but the most frightening to the west is the fact that it gives more power to the people in decision making and planning for local areas in Valenzuela. The opposition is ENCOURAGED to join in on the assembly but they want no part in it. Gee I wonder why?..
I have family friends out there in Venezuela and the one constant thing they hate about the media is how they don't cover things straight. The Bolivarian revolution is popular for a reason and I can see why the West is frightened by that..

Is this shit some kind of disease? Looks like it.

 

[Stinkles]

As a socialist, I wonder why so many leftists have to be attached to Marxist-Leninist bullshit, along with excusing any self created problem being blamed to the US (meanwhile there are real problems out there that US imperialism is creating).

I'm actually a socialist in a sort of airy fairy Star Trek/Culture sort of way. But the reality is that human nature makes both extremes of that position untenable. Libertarians ignore that greed will make leaders do abominable shit in the name of philosophy. And socialists do the exact same thing. Communists of you want to jump hard left and right.

Thing is that automation, technological singularities and energy liberation are going to make these questions political fact rather than philosophical rumination.

But the benefits to the thunderous billions could be wonderful,

A civilization of comfort and mind - we could literally do that. Happy fed masses encouraging brilliance and enjoying the benefits.

But no. A fat fuck in New Jersey will quash aspects of that for unmeasured convenience. And an orange idiot as stupid as his lowest supporter will ruin a nation to feed his basest vanity.

Because it is easy for voter and candidate.

 

[Caturro]

Doesn't Argentina have a centre-right government after the left-wing populist Kirschner government fell apart due to corruption, economic malaise, and massive protests?

I'm not sure what your point is? None of what you said contradicts my statement. Argentina maintains its welfare state despite electing governments of different political parties because it's sound policy. The welfare state predates the Kirshner populist years as well, and the corrupt Menem years before them... again, not sure what you are trying to get at.

 

[Inkvoterad]

Holy fucking shit at the Maduro defense here. This is absolutely sickening.

Edit: Seriously, you two defenders sound like straight up shills. This shit should be bannable. Fuck oooff

 

[ibyea]

RI have little affection the Venezuelan government or Marxism-Leninism, yet I recognize that American pressures have destabilized and harmed Venezuelan society. Right-wing revolutions almost always end terribly for most people, and there is a real possibility of the incompetent Maduro being replaced with a despot like Pinochet. Going all-in for the Venezuelan opposition is easy from the comfort of a first-world bedroom, but we need to think long and hard about to what degree these protests can help the Venezuelan people, and to what degree these protests are led by people with benevolent aims.

I know because I was there in Venezuela during the 2002 coup attempt, aided by the US. So don't presume I don't know what the US has done to Latin America, or that I have never gone through uncertain times. I still would rather Venezuela's opposition to win this. Not to mention not every opposition to PSUV is right wing.

 

[Harl3]

Horrific. The lack of attention that has been given to what's been happening to Venezuela is unbelievable.

I have no doubt that we're going to see a massive wave of refugees fleeing this tyrant as things (likely) will continue to grow worse for Venezuelans. I sincerely hope the rest of the world won't deny them from sanctuary like certain countries have and continue with Syria's refugee crisis.

Venezuelans had been fleeing since a while...

But now with the "Constituyente", it's getting worse.

 

[Animator]

I thought the gaf north korea defence force was bad but the two idiots in this thread proved me wrong.

 

[Caturro]

Aww yeah, nothing beats the 'not true socialism' fallacy.

You'd think after a century of marxist shit shows people would realize that this is not a feasible method of economic organization.

Yeah, no. Words matter, and these terms have been around for a long time to have someone like you just spew things out without a hint of knowledge of the matter. Nice try.

 

[Pancake Mix]

Tragic.

Just awful what still happens in the world.

 

[Zero-ELEC]

Nope. Standards of living have absolutely tanked, but child malnutrition in Venezuela is dwarfed by Guatemala's 49.8% malnutrition rate.

But Guatemala plays along with the world market, so Western journalists can't blame this on any evil government and there's no money pouring into think tanks promoting regime change there.

Fair points, but I still maintain that México's current regime is not comparable to this.

 

[TTOOLL]

Venezuela is a patrimonial petrostate where most of the economy is privately held, but some key industries are controlled by the state. The government uses oil sales and corporate taxes to alleviate poverty and build loyalty among citizens. Think Saudi Arabia with more democracy and less Wahhabism. Tanking oil prices caused the entire Venezuelan system to collapse, killing the welfare state and restricting the flow of foreign funds into the economy. Wages have sunk dramatically thanks to this downturn, and state efforts to raise the minimum wage have infuriated employers. If you want to blame this on Marx, go ahead. You would just be incredibly wrong.

Opposition figures, supported by the US and our incredibly bloodthirsty oil industry, believe that privatizing natural reserves and abolishing the Chavista welfare state can save their economy. Because these problems are caused by changes in the price of oil, ceding more power to market forces won't help. Such a transformation will re-entrench the abject poverty endured by Venezuelans throughout much of their history, and might inaugurate a new era of American economic domination. This doesn't even account for the very real possibility that a new Venezuelan government abolishes democracy to protect corporate interests, just as juntas in Chile and Brazil and Colombia had done in the past.

To permanently end the problems of starvation and deprivation, there needs to be a massive redistribution of wealth from the world's richest few thousand to the world's poorest few billion. Forgive me for doubting that this is possible under capitalism.



How do you predict the elections will go? Could they help stop the violence?

I wonder why Maduro won't do this and share his wealth within his own country.
Give me a fucking break.

 

[CazTGG]

Venezuelans had been fleeing since a while...

But now with the "Constituyente", it's getting worse.

Never said they weren't, just pointing out that the numbers are going to increase substantially in the coming weeks short of an international intervention.

 

[Soran]

I wish people stop babying third word countries. Yes, a lot of our problems can be blamed on first word countries and their greed but ask any person who live in those countries and they will tell you the biggest problems is corruption. If the people in power cared about anyone beside themselves then they will not allow other countries taking advantage of us.

 

[Valhelm]

I wonder why Maduro won't do this and share his wealth within his own country.
Give me a fucking break.

If you think the biggest problem with Venezuela is distribution of wealth, you will find yourself directly opposed to dissident leaders and their foreign backers.

 

[Harl3]

Never said they weren't, just pointing out that the numbers are going to increase substantially in the coming weeks short of an international intervention.

Agree with that.

 

[Dinokill]

My 80+ grandmother needs to wake up at 2 in the fucking morning every fucking day to fill her tank with water because water is out for 22 hours of the day.

My uncles and his wife with 2 kids are no eating right.

We(parents and I) have to send food to Venezuela regularly so my family can eat somehow.

My country is a fucking mess.

And here we have people telling us that in reality Venezuela is all fine. Fuck you! I wish I can fight any of you right fucking now.

 

[Valhelm]

Never said they weren't, just pointing out that the numbers are going to increase substantially in the coming weeks short of an international intervention.

you really suggesting we turn Venezuela into another Iraq?

 

[///PATRIOT]

Thanks for the support, has been rough years over here.

 

[Eylos]

Maduro won the presidency in a UN sanctioned, democratic election by a margin of 1.43% in 2013. If you call yourself a socialist you would be defending the Maduro government unconditionally against its imperialist and reactionary opponents.

Also, I'm gonna need a better source on this story than NIkki Fucking Haley.

I Understand this, but i Understand that the political situation is kinda Chaotic, it Changed since 2013. The more Power to the people the better, If the people wants a right wing govermnent, than the left is doing something wrong, we as the left must Trust the Power to the people always, If this New constitution improves this that's great, but i dont see why not New elections.

Power to the people.

 

[ibyea]

Venezuela is a patrimonial petrostate where most of the economy is privately held, but some key industries are controlled by the state. The government uses oil sales and corporate taxes to alleviate poverty and build loyalty among citizens. Think Saudi Arabia with more democracy and less Wahhabism. Tanking oil prices caused the entire Venezuelan system to collapse, killing the welfare state and restricting the flow of foreign funds into the economy. Wages have sunk dramatically thanks to this downturn, and state efforts to raise the minimum wage have infuriated employers. If you want to blame this on Marx, go ahead. You would just be incredibly wrong.

Opposition figures, supported by the US and our incredibly bloodthirsty oil industry, believe that privatizing natural reserves and abolishing the Chavista welfare state can save their economy. Because these problems are caused by changes in the price of oil, ceding more power to market forces won't help. Such a transformation will re-entrench the abject poverty endured by Venezuelans throughout much of their history, and might inaugurate a new era of American economic domination. This doesn't even account for the very real possibility that a new Venezuelan government abolishes democracy to protect corporate interests, just as juntas in Chile and Brazil and Colombia had done in the past.

To permanently end the problems of starvation and deprivation, there needs to be a massive redistribution of wealth from the world's richest few thousand to the world's poorest few billion. Forgive me for doubting that this is possible under capitalism.



How do you predict the elections will go? Could they help stop the violence?

Blaming it on oil prices only is really dishonest. If things were better managed, including really dumb currency manipulation, this wouldn't even be that bad.

 

[RM8]

So we have people with literally zero exposition to the actual situation of the country defending Maduro. It's kind of impressive if you're aiming to be dumb, I guess.

 

[moffattron9000]

Venezuela is a patrimonial petrostate where most of the economy is privately held, but some key industries are controlled by the state. The government uses oil sales and corporate taxes to alleviate poverty and build loyalty among citizens. Think Saudi Arabia with more democracy and less Wahhabism. Tanking oil prices caused the entire Venezuelan system to collapse, killing the welfare state and restricting the flow of foreign funds into the economy. Wages have sunk dramatically thanks to this downturn, and state efforts to raise the minimum wage have infuriated employers. If you want to blame this on Marx, go ahead. You would just be incredibly wrong.

Opposition figures, supported by the US and our incredibly bloodthirsty oil industry, believe that privatizing natural reserves and abolishing the Chavista welfare state can save their economy. Because these problems are caused by changes in the price of oil, ceding more power to market forces won't help. Such a transformation will re-entrench the abject poverty endured by Venezuelans throughout much of their history, and might inaugurate a new era of American economic domination. This doesn't even account for the very real possibility that a new Venezuelan government abolishes democracy to protect corporate interests, just as juntas in Chile and Brazil and Colombia had done in the past.

To permanently end the problems of starvation and deprivation, there needs to be a massive redistribution of wealth from the world's richest few thousand to the world's poorest few billion. Forgive me for doubting that this is possible under capitalism.

So the entire Soviet bloc also failed because of American Imperialism?

 

[iamblades]

Venezuela is a patrimonial petrostate where most of the economy is privately held, but some key industries are controlled by the state. The government uses oil sales and corporate taxes to alleviate poverty and build loyalty among citizens. Think Saudi Arabia with more democracy and less Wahhabism. Tanking oil prices caused the entire Venezuelan system to collapse, killing the welfare state and restricting the flow of foreign funds into the economy. Wages have sunk dramatically thanks to this downturn, and state efforts to raise the minimum wage have infuriated employers. If you want to blame this on Marx, go ahead. You would just be incredibly wrong.

Opposition figures, supported by the US and our incredibly bloodthirsty oil industry, believe that privatizing natural reserves and abolishing the Chavista welfare state can save their economy. Because these problems are caused by changes in the price of oil, ceding more power to market forces won't help. Such a transformation will re-entrench the abject poverty endured by Venezuelans throughout much of their history, and might inaugurate a new era of American economic domination. This doesn't even account for the very real possibility that a new Venezuelan government abolishes democracy to protect corporate interests, just as juntas in Chile and Brazil and Colombia had done in the past.

To permanently end the problems of starvation and deprivation, there needs to be a massive redistribution of wealth from the world's richest few thousand to the world's poorest few billion. Forgive me for doubting that this is possible under capitalism.



How do you predict the elections will go? Could they help stop the violence?

He's the one who gave these dumbass Chavistas the idea to seize the means of production. Is Venezuela the kind of society Marx suggested? Obviously not, but that's because Marx's ideas are fundamentally incompatible with reality, not because they haven't been tried.

As for this being a result of the US oil industry just wanting to get their hands on Venezuela's oil, that is just laughable. No one even wants shitty Venezuelan heavy crude anymore, least of all the US who is switching it's refining capacity to use the light sweet shale oil.

Chavez fired all the oil workers and replaced them with cronies, made the industry less efficient and actually decreased total output at the same time, and now Venezuela is dealing with a world where no one wants the only thing of value it produces. If it were just the market price dropping, they could deal with it, but the problem is they have had to basically pay people to buy their oil because of how shitty it is to refine, and they can't refine it themselves because they can't afford the light sweet crude to mix it with.

As powerful as the US is, Venezuela's economic problems are basically entirely homegrown.

 

[Niks]

Whats happening in Venezuela is a fucking tragedy.

 

[And_Gignac]

Come off that shit, Peña Nieto is many things, but he's not fucking Maduro. They are not nearly comparable, and Maduro's regime is absolutely the worst humanitarian crisis latam has faced in a bit. That shit ain't rhetoric, that's shit's fact.

Sure. 21k people killed by the organized crime in the last 7 months in capitalist Mexico. Almost half the population in deep poverty. But yeah, the crisis is somewhere else right.

 

[Pedrito]

I wonder how many more years of Venezuela basically being a failed state it will take until the idealistic leftists stop defending this useless government. Who am I kidding? They'll just continue to blame western imperialists.

 

[TTOOLL]

So the entire Soviet bloc also failed because of American Imperialism?

Apparently it's everyone's fault but their supreme leaders'. Funny.
Actually, it's not even REAL socialism you know...if it were...

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Apparently it's everyone's fault but their supreme leaders. Funny.
Actually, it's not even REAL socialism you know...if it were...

Venezuela failed because among other things it had assistentialism , people kept voting for Chavez because he gave them free shit, in my country people voted for a proven corrupt because he gave shit for free too. The thing is when the money stops like in Venezuela with the oil prices going down then you start having problems and your economy goes to shit.

Should be a reminder for other countries that handouts are fine and all but if thats your whole plan for getting people out of poverty as soon as an economic crisis comes and it will come, everything will fall like a house of cards

 

[Valhelm]

Sure. 21k people killed by the organized crime in the last 7 months in capitalist Mexico. Almost half the population in deep poverty. But yeah, the crisis is somewhere else right.

from a liberal perspective bad things generally don't matter unless they're explicitly carried out by state actors

 

[Boney]

How many has the opposition killed today?

Jose Pineda was totally killed by the regime right?
https://twitter.com/benjaminnorton/status/891787756837511169

Most reporting on Venezuela is absolute garbage. The opposition is savage, burning multiple people alive, assassinating people and burning places like maternity wards. They tell reporters to only start filming once police initiate retaliation. If they realize it's a TeleSur reporter they'll try to lynch you. It's insane.

https://twitter.com/benjaminnorton/status/891768038256758784
Look at this bomb attack on a police squadron for instance.
https://twitter.com/benjaminnorton/status/891779523238391808
Here's the extremists threatening a coup
They won't let people out of their homes to vote. 9 days being detained at her own home
https://twitter.com/madeleintlsur/status/889556487948914689
https://twitter.com/benjaminnorton/status/891715716545687552
Venezuelans voting and imploring to end the violence.

 

[iamblades]

from a liberal perspective bad things generally don't matter unless they're explicitly carried out by state actors

More like we expect criminals to be dirtbags and do shitty things, we hold governments to higher standards(or we should anyway).

Besides it's not as if Venezuela doesn't have it's own (even worse) problem with violent crime:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Venezuela

 

[ibyea]

More like we expect criminals to be dirtbags and do shitty things, we hold governments to higher standards(or we should anyway).

Besides it's not as if Venezuela doesn't have it's own (even worse) problem with violent crime:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Venezuela

Yeah, Caracas is a very violent city, and that is happening under the PSUV.

 

[Mark L]

How many has the opposition killed today?

Jose Pineda was totally killed by the regime right?
https://twitter.com/benjaminnorton/status/891787756837511169

Most reporting on Venezuela is absolute garbage. The opposition is savage, burning multiple people alive, assassinating people and burning places like maternity wards. They tell reporters to only start filming once police initiate retaliation. If they realize it's a TeleSur reporter they'll try to lynch you. It's insane.

https://twitter.com/benjaminnorton/status/891768038256758784
Look at this bomb attack on a police squadron for instance.
https://twitter.com/benjaminnorton/status/891779523238391808
Here's the extremists threatening a coup
https://twitter.com/benjaminnorton/status/891715716545687552
Venezuelans voting and imploring to end the violence.

The same stuff we were told to justify the first Iraqi war, except this time from the opposite side of the political spectrum.

 

[God Dayumm]

The same stuff we were told to justify the first Iraqi war, except this time from the opposite side of the political spectrum.

I am hoping that no one in here is using these atrocities to justify another war. I certainly don't. What the US should do is accept some Venezuelans as refugees, but otherwise they should stay far away from it.

 

[moffattron9000]

I am hoping that no one in here is using these atrocities to justify another war. I certainly don't. What the US should do is accept some Venezuelans as refugees, but otherwise they should stay far away from it.

I don't think that anyone (in great quantity) is. Iraq still casts a massive shadow over US foreign policy, and we're probably still decades away from the tolerance being there for such an intervention.

 

[Niks]

So apparently 8 million people voted today in Venezuela.