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[SigmasonicX]

Thinking about it, a really neat premise for Return to Return to Ravnica would be that, in Jace's absence, the guilds become really over the top, to the point that their territories become corrupted in their own ways. The guilds have always been restrained, but now they fully and freely live out their ideals, and they are free to fight each other. Think the recent Adventure Time miniseries, "Elementals".

A huge event like that could warrant deviating from two sets.

 

[charlequin]

They did do it right twice, back to back in fact. I can't speak for pre onslaught blocks though.

One of those is Ravnica which they couldn't even recapture the three-set magic on a second time (instead producing one of the absolute worst examples of Third Set Syndrome ever) and the other is Time Spiral which still has a jank set (Planar Chaos) and was such a business disaster that it makes their Top 5 "Things We Won't Do Again" list.

I didn't invent it. The pace feels overwhelming to me right now., mechanics are getting 1 set to shine then being discarded (see: Investigate, that Convoke for Artifacts mechanic, etc.) and it just generally feels like the brakes need to be put on in some form.

I agree that this pace was awful, but they haven't until probably now with Amonkhet actually given the most obvious solution a shot: cap blocks to 3 mechanics in the big set and one added in the small one, then just make sure the ones you're adding actually pull their weight. If Kaladesh was the high end of mechanics instead of the low end you'd see a higher hit rate on individual mechanics (three of the five in KLD block are major Constructed players and one other clearly pulls its weight in limited) and a much less muddled picture overall.

What's wrong with them going back to to 3 sets per block?

The core problems with three set blocks were basically as follows:

• Almost no theme actually has enough material to stretch out to three blocks, nor do most mechanics.
• Players are already used to the environment seven months in, so they don't care about your marketing messages or the set reveal much and need a huge change to actually be impressed.
• But doing a big swerve in the third set involves either a mechanical reboot or a confusing and disruptive level of change within the block.
• All of that results in a third-set problem, where the last set is underwhelming, unpopular, and called out as "bad." (Sometimes they'd load up the third set with something interesting and they'd have a second-set problem instead.)
• The story is the single biggest monetary driver of new business WotC has had in years, and they basically can't tell it at a rate that keeps people engaged if they have to spend an entire calendar year on each world.
• Meanwhile, because core sets had no unique flavor or distinct selling points, and were half reprints, people didn't care about them or buy them much.

(I might've forgotten something here.)

how are they burning through worlds? ever since the changes we've had 2 returns and 2 new planes.

Yeah, the thing to do here again isn't to slow down block production, but to just tilt further in the direction of returns and start treating core worlds as a stable of primary settings. The first time back to a plane it makes sense to make a big deal of recreating the original block with a twist, but if you need to slow down creation of new settings just do 3+ returns of popular worlds where you don't stick as closely to the exact format of the original.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Core sets were mostly dumb because they were low powered and obviously aimed at new players. They would have breakout cards, but generally speaking those were just individually overpowered cards without any particular story or theme like Titans, Thragtusk, Rabblemaster, etc.

If Core Sets were standalone sets designed for advanced players they'd have been fine to begin with. WOTC seems perfectly capable of doing single-set draftable sets - they do just fine with the Masters series.

I would laugh if the announcement for the 25th Anniversary was a reissue of Revised. It's technically not a reprint as that term is used in Magic, so it doesn't violate the Reserved List to just produce more Revised!

 

[kirblar]

Aces like BSA are good for the game.

Aces like Thragtusk and Prime Time are stupid.

 

[SigmasonicX]

If Core Sets were standalone sets designed for advanced players they'd have been fine to begin with. WOTC seems perfectly capable of doing single-set draftable sets - they do just fine with the Masters series.

That defeats the entire point of having Core Sets, though.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Aces like BSA are good for the game.

Aces like Thragtusk and Prime Time are stupid.

Baneslayer Angel was the poster child for power creep, but I have no idea if people would actually play it now.

That defeats the entire point of having Core Sets, though.

I think that's what I'm saying - I don't think the "Core Set" has a real reason to exist beyond printing some otherwise impossible to reprint stuff. "Standalone set that can have a lot more relevant reprints" does. I think the way they can do this is have the Standalone (let's just say it's not "core") Set be a story-based set that isn't specifically tied to one plane, but gets cards from every relevant plane to the story.

 

[Imperfected]

I would be cool to more planes being on a standard return schedule if it meant getting more "updated" versions of cards (eg, Khalitas, Bloodchief of Ghet -> Khalitas, Traitor of Ghet) just because I find it kind of amusing when I run them in EDH decks and people just sort of mentally try to apply Planeswalker Legend Rule to them because it hurts their brain.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Yeah, the thing to do here again isn't to slow down block production, but to just tilt further in the direction of returns and start treating core worlds as a stable of primary settings. The first time back to a plane it makes sense to make a big deal of recreating the original block with a twist, but if you need to slow down creation of new settings just do 3+ returns of popular worlds where you don't stick as closely to the exact format of the original.

I'd actually be less annoyed at more regular returns to ravnica than the way they do them now.
With repeated revisits they can flesh out these issues I have with the plane more organically.

 

[Violet_0]

surely we would go to New Phyrexia first before Ravincia. More artifacts!

 

[Angry Grimace]

Mirrodin Block
Scars Block
Kaladesh Block

New Standard seems legit

 

[OnPoint]

surely we would go to New Phyrexia first before Ravincia. More artifacts!

I dunno... we did just get that Ravnica story.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Shifting the standalone set around also gives you the opportunity to do stuff like get Elspeth out of the Underworld without having to actually schedule a specific Theros block.

 

[SigmasonicX]

Shifting the standalone set around also gives you the opportunity to do stuff like get Elspeth out of the Underworld without having to actually schedule a specific Theros block.

I mean, you still have to make mechanics and art for that.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I mean, you still have to make mechanics and art for that.

By the end they were making new cards and mechanics for Core Sets (unless you don't count Origins). Even before that they were making new cards to fit with the old mechanics they'd lift.

It's not a mechanical problem for them to just make a set and some mechanics. Kirblar thinks that but I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that is true.

 

[red13th]

As long as they make the standalone set Jacetice League-free I'm okay.
The best sets are always the ones without the Jacetice League.

 

[OnPoint]

I wouldn't mind if Core sets, whatever they are called, adopted the mechanics of the plane they took place in, utilizing a mixture of old and new cards to inject variety into standard.

 

[Angry Grimace]

As long as they make the standalone set Jacetice League-free I'm okay.
The best sets are always the ones without the Jacetice League.

There have been cards with Jace on them since they formed the League in Oath. Jace himself was in Innistrad; the Gatewatch specifically appeared together on Kaladesh the entire time; they're on Amonkhet also.

 

[Lucario]

Could you quickly help me evaluating how broken this theoretical variant on Force Spike would in different formats? I basically wanted a way to counter a T1 hand disruption on the draw.

Spike in the Force - 1U

Instant
If you control no lands you may cast ~ without paying its mana cost.
Counter target spell unless its controller pays {1}.


In my opinion:
Limited: Unplayable
Standard: Unplayable
Modern: Probably not worth it
Legacy: ?
Vintage: ???

Seems like a mixture of Chancellor of the Annex and Daze that's a bit harder to play around? Manaless Dredge would probably want it, but it wouldn't go in any fair decks.

Chancellor already does basically the same thing though, and you can dread return that.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I mean, you wouldn't play a card that counters nothing but Thoughtseize/Inquisition in any format.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Numero dos:

4-1.

2-0 Monowhite something
0-2 BW Eldrazi
2-0 Mono U Control
2-0 UR Control
2-1 Marvel

Pretty wide field at FNM but my round 4 opponent had the misfortune of me being his 3rd UR mirror.

In the last match I summary dismissed 2 Ulamog then Disallowed + Ceremonious Rejection the third and then had mana open to negate a harnessed lightning targeting my Gearhulk

 

[Zocano]

Could you quickly help me evaluating how broken this theoretical variant on Force Spike would in different formats? I basically wanted a way to counter a T1 hand disruption on the draw.

Spike in the Force - 1U

Instant
If you control no lands you may cast ~ without paying its mana cost.
Counter target spell unless its controller pays {1}.


In my opinion:
Limited: Unplayable
Standard: Unplayable
Modern: Probably not worth it
Legacy: ?
Vintage: ???

I mean, you wouldn't play a card that counters nothing but Thoughtseize/Inquisition in any format.

Literally just came to mind now even after having seen this post before.

They printed the "best" variant of this and it was pretty promptly banned in both modern and legacy:

Mental Misstep.

 

[G.ZZZ]

Literally just came to mind now even after having seen this post before.

They printed the "best" variant of this and it was pretty promptly banned in both modern and legacy:

Mental Misstep.

That proposed card has nothing on mental misstep. It isn't even close. Like not in a million years close. It's closer to something like Chancellor of the annex than misstep.

That said if you really want interaction for going second and whatsnot, i'd print a similar card but in white since there are already a couple in blue (fow, shoal, foil )

Something like.

Moment of Silence 1W
Instant
If you control no lands, you may play this for free.
Players can't play spell or attack this turn.

Also instant speed unmask plz wotc. Reactive cards that can trade card advantage for tempo are almost always a good thing for the game, with the exception of mental misstep (because it was so ubiquitous and basically had no drawback, so it compressed turns too much and led to the starting land to be too important, aka increased variance).

 

[Zocano]

It does what the original poster was asking about and I did add the qualifier of it being the best variant of said card.

 

[Yeef]

"If you control no lands" is the antithesis of how they usually do free spells. They typically control for making sure you're at least playing the right color to get the effect.

 

[HK-47]

The stories and especially the new planes feel truncated and small compared to older sets that could let them breath. The two act structure was pretty garbage on kaladesh and hasn't really enhanced amonkhet in any way. It also makes it super obvious what is gonna happen because the first set has to move the action pretty far along. Shadows avoided this but that's because the plane was already completely introduced (it also had innistrad's stellar art direction and atmosphere, which makes all the post tarkir blocks look positively bland in comparison)

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

that's on them not on the way it's structured.

What makes the planes feel like theme parks is the focus on a single location. SOI felt like an actual place unlike Amonkhet and Kaladesh.

 

[Santiako]

Just saw all the announcements.

Oh boy, next week is going to be fuuun.

 

[Tunoku]

I'm currently more excited for E3, but Magic announcement week should be fun as well.

Went 3-2 today, losing to the white stuff Vogel mentioned. I was at 2 life and exiled a Brisela and Aethersphere Harvester with Ulamog, but I couldn't deal with my opponents Avacyn, because he had Always Watching and I was just at one Energy. Managed to win my UR match though. A resolved Torch of Defiance is pretty hard to beat.

 

[charlequin]

As for the banlist update, the fact that it's on its own day gives me the idea that it's going to be something either mediocre (no changes) or something borderline nuclear(Marvel banned, SSG Banned, Chrome Mox Unbanned, Past in Flames banned, Preordain unbanned,Eldrazi Temple Banned,etc).

I don't think they would give a "day to digest" an empty announcement given that the default assumption would definitely be for this one to be empty.

The way they label sets makes it sort of nebulous to newer players what's rotating out and when - I've seen it happen a ton of times at my store. I almost feel like cards should be labeled "Season X" or something on the card in the bottom of the frame so you can just say "all cards with Season X are rotating" instead of "Shadows Over Innistrad, Eldritch Moon, Battle for Zendikar and Oath of the Gatewatch are rotating."

This is actually a super good idea that I'm surprised I've never seen before? It was already good for them to start showing "Set 1 of 2 of the X Block" or whatever, this would be a great way to simplify that particular calculation for people.

I think that's what I'm saying - I don't think the "Core Set" has a real reason to exist beyond printing some otherwise impossible to reprint stuff. "Standalone set that can have a lot more relevant reprints" does. I think the way they can do this is have the Standalone (let's just say it's not "core") Set be a story-based set that isn't specifically tied to one plane, but gets cards from every relevant plane to the story.

Congratulations, you've invented Magic Origins.

 

[bigkrev]

I don't think they would give a "day to digest" an empty announcement given that the default assumption would definitely be for this one to be empty.

A "Day to Digest" tells me that this is more than just routine standard bans/ modern unbans. Maybe an unbanning of Reflector Mage? Maybe switching from a ban list to a banned/restricted list in Legacy? (Legacy would be the place to try this out if they were ever considering it)

 

[The Technomancer]

Kill Marvel

Do it

 

[Angry Grimace]

Is it bad sportsmanship to say "nom nom nom" every time you cast Cast Out on a permanent?

 

[SigmasonicX]

Is it bad sportsmanship to say "nom nom nom" every time you cast Cast Out on a permanent?

Yes.
What you should be doing is casting the exiled card out the window.

 

[traveler]

Tamada's Jeskai quEller burn control list is seriously good. I'd say it's even favored vs deaths shadow, most coco counters lists, and affinity. Have not played against burn or dredge yet though, and I suspect they'll be tougher.

 

[Violet_0]

what's stopping the Dread Return Living End deck from becoming a real powerhouse in modern? Graveyard hate in sideboards? Because from what I've seen, it looked super solid

 

[kirblar]

what's stopping the Dread Return deck from becoming a real powerhouse in modern? Graveyard hate in sideboards? Because from what I've seen, it looked super solid

The ban list.

 

[Violet_0]

The ban list.

err, Living End heh

 

[Santiako]

err, Living End heh

Right now it's the best it's ever been, it just made top 2 in GP Copenhagen. The only thing keeping it down is that it's very weak to splash graveyard hate that people pack for Dredge, Traverse, etc and that it folds to any sort of counterspell and right now the best and most played deck in the format is packing stubborn denials main. I'd say it's a solid tier 2 deck.

 

[traveler]

Graveyard hate should be cranking back up in sideboards with the ascendancy of Grixis ds and resurgence of dredge. Living end gets hit by it a lot harder as it doesn't get on the battlefield before the hate arrives in the same way dredge can. It's creatures are pretty pricey too, if you have to cast them the old way.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Yes.
What you should be doing is casting the exiled card out the window.

I mean I don't really care if it is.

Nom nom nom

 

[thefil]

I just read the Metamorphoses article mentioned on the previous page about the change from 3-set blocks to 2-set (I returned to the game in AER after not playing since 3-set blocks were the thing).

In that article, it says that there would be 3 blocks at a time in Standard and rotations would happen twice a year. It looks like there are currently 4 blocks in standard and two will be rotating out at the same time. What gives? Why did they change that?

Personally I like the 2 set blocks (I'm already getting a little tired of AKH and don't want it to stay beyond Hour of Devastation) and I'm all for the Standard meta being blown up more often rather than less.

 

[Xis]

In that article, it says that there would be 3 blocks at a time in Standard and rotations would happen twice a year. It looks like there are currently 4 blocks in standard and two will be rotating out at the same time. What gives? Why did they change that?

Standard attendance dropped; many players hated having two rotations a year.

 

[charlequin]

In that article, it says that there would be 3 blocks at a time in Standard and rotations would happen twice a year. It looks like there are currently 4 blocks in standard and two will be rotating out at the same time. What gives? Why did they change that?

Because people complained about there being two rotations per year and the best way they could come up with to do otherwise involved increasing Standard by a block-ish.

 

[thefil]

Standard attendance dropped; many players hated having two rotations a year.

What did they hate about it?

 

[SigmasonicX]

What did they hate about it?

When Standard rotates, the cards from the sets that rotated out can no longer be used in your decks when playing Standard. Even beyond the monetary impact, people generally like sticking to one deck for a while, so being forced to change decks so often bothered them.

 

[thefil]

When Standard rotates, the cards from the sets that rotated out can no longer be used in your decks when playing Standard. Even beyond the monetary impact, people generally like sticking to one deck for a while, so being forced to change decks so often bothered them.

Weird to me that a 25% reduction in a set's presence in standard was considered such a cost/my-favourite-deck impact. Oh well. I don't play Standard so it only matters to me in terms of the GP meta being stale to watch on Twitch.

 

[Ashodin]

Got my Aetherpunkt today finally!

god it's fucking beautiful

there's three more weeks I can try to get three more, for sure.

 

[Zocano]

1-3 first time running affinity. Lost to GW eldrazi stuff, Abzan infinite life combo stuff, and affinity mirror

Sideboard isn't super finished yet but I think I need to learn how to best evaluate what hands I really should keep or how aggressively I should mulligan.

 

[HK-47]

It's amazing how many people think the emrakul ban was just because of marvel and that marvel being banned would have solved that problem. It's like everyone already forgot the whole "no gy hate" problem.

 

[Santiako]

It's amazing how many people think the emrakul ban was just because of marvel and that marvel being banned would have solved that problem. It's like everyone already forgot the whole "no gy hate" problem.

Yeah, GB Turbo Emrakul was just as obnoxious as Marvel, if not more. They weren't casting it on turn 4, but they had much better game outside of it.