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[Partial Gamification]

Oh you are so funny. Attacking my English.

English is simply not my first language.

No worries, in the linked article he does suggest Russian involvemnt:

It’s possible, Reeves said, that specialized Russian military personnel—"Spetsnaz"—were directly or indirectly involved with the crew that fired the missile.

"Whoever did this wasn’t someone that had a little bit of training and some Russian advisors told him how to do it. These people were trained on it — for a long time. The fact is, they shot one [missile] and they hit. They’re pretty proficient, O’Reilly said.

"If it wasn’t Russians or Russian advisors, it had to be former Russian air-defense personnel. Someone had to be formally trained in order to use it.’’
http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-ukraine-malaysia-jet-training-20140719-story.html

They have trained crews in the area. Its not that hard to imagine separatists being given basic training to operate the vehicle over limited time but who knows. Are there not former Ukrainian soldiers that defected to the separatists? Could they too not have the knowledge of this system?

 

[mAcOdIn]

EDIT: Here's another interesting factor I just realised: the Ukrainian army is conscripted. It's not at all impossible that someone in the sep camp actually had training in operating a BUK... by the Ukrainian Army.

The point is, I stand by the belief that you don't need expert Russian soldiers to shoot down an airliner with a BUK.

Not just that but that the system's what 30 years old give or take? Surely there's been a lot of soldiers cycle through those things. And ultimately it's more likely ex-military who'd do something like join a militia or volunteer from the Russian side(assuming they're volunteers) rather than common people with normal jobs.

But ultimately I agree with you, I think people in general need to understand that ultimately when using a tool made by people for average soldiers to use average people will be able to learn to use it. At the end of the day soldiers are people too and you do the species a disservice by assuming that these things are beyond the common man to control. You really can't rule anything out.

 

[Nivash]

Or maybe a few Ukraine soldiers thought that it's a Russian aircraft and thought that Russia would be invading Ukraine by air?

So your take on this is that the seps lack the training to shoot down anything, the Russians are too incompetent to use their advanced air defence system to separate an airliner from a transport and that we can't rule out the possibility that the Ukrainians are so monumentally idiotic that they confused one airliner among dozens flying the same route every day - flying from west to east no less! - for Red Dawn?

I swear it's like you're using your Occams Razor upside down.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

lol the Russians invading Ukraine in a single aircraft at 30,000ft moving in from the north-west that is shot down by panicked Ukranian conscripts somehow sat in the very heart of the militant territory yet aren't discovered is totally more likely to have happened than some dumbshit militants firing on a plane because they thought it was Ukrainian military.

Man the lengths some people will go to to excuse those responsible because the truth messes with their world view.

 

[HelloMeow]

Dutch FM statement to United Nations on plane crash
https://soundcloud.com/producermatthew/dutch-fm-statement-to-united-nations-on-plane-crash

 

[Dr.Acula]

lol the Russians invading Ukraine in a single aircraft at 30,000ft moving in from the north-west that is shot down by panicked Ukranian conscripts somehow sat in the very heart of the militant territory yet aren't discovered is totally more likely to have happened than some dumbshit militants firing on a plane because they thought it was Ukrainian military.

Man the lengths some people will go to to excuse those responsible because the truth messes with their world view.

Some of the arguments in this thread are such hot garbage it beggars belief. The propaganda being spread around is disgusting.

 

[Chariot]

Dutch FM statement to United Nations on plane crash
https://soundcloud.com/producermatthew/dutch-fm-statement-to-united-nations-on-plane-crash

Thank you.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Some of the arguments in this thread are such hot garbage it beggars belief. The propaganda being spread around is disgusting.

It's fucking comical that they're all coming out with the same shit around the same time. Just happens to have taken this long for Russia to start properly forming this same narrative and start pushing it.

Total coincidence tho

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

lol the Russians invading Ukraine in a single aircraft at 30,000ft moving in from the north-west that is shot down by panicked Ukranian conscripts somehow sat in the very heart of the militant territory yet aren't discovered is totally more likely to have happened than some dumbshit militants firing on a plane because they thought it was Ukrainian military.

Man the lengths some people will go to to excuse those responsible because the truth messes with their world view.

That's really all it is. Their world view takes #1 precedent over anything else. The west MUST be the great satan every single time. They can't stand the idea that maybe the world is not as black and white and that maybe the sides they support are just as bad if not worse.

 

[Suikoguy]

lol the Russians invading Ukraine in a single aircraft at 30,000ft moving in from the north-west that is shot down by panicked Ukranian conscripts somehow sat in the very heart of the militant territory yet aren't discovered is totally more likely to have happened than some dumbshit militants firing on a plane because they thought it was Ukrainian military.

Man the lengths some people will go to to excuse those responsible because the truth messes with their world view.

Seriously, it would be more amusing if it was not so sad

 

[spekkeh]

 

[mlewis]

Bizarre scenes. Black boxes being given to Malaysian delegation in front of world's press

 

[SniperHunter]

Thr black box will tell nothing. It would have simply cut off the moment the missile hit the engine

 

[jimi_dini]

No worries, in the linked article he does suggest Russian involvemnt:

Yes, but he also says that Ukraine military has them too.

Its not that hard to imagine separatists being given basic training to operate the vehicle over limited time but who knows.

He also said that 30 days are not enough and that you would need around 6 months of training.

Are there not former Ukrainian soldiers that defected to the separatists? Could they too not have the knowledge of this system?

That would make sense, right. But then they could have simply used "their" Ukrainian BUK in case they were one of the official Ukrainian BUK teams. And then Ukraine would have been lying again. Even after the crash they denied that rebels had gotten one of their BUKs and blamed Russia instead.

Ukraine government lying is nothing new, so sure - maybe one of the Ukrainian BUKs got used by its own team against Ukrainian aircraft and they also just misfired. But this defection must have happened on the few days right before the airplane crash. If Ukrainian government would have known that, they would have banned the airspace.

 

[Tugatrix]

What now the boxes are like a trophy?

 

[FStop7]

Not just that but that the system's what 30 years old give or take? Surely there's been a lot of soldiers cycle through those things. And ultimately it's more likely ex-military who'd do something like join a militia or volunteer from the Russian side(assuming they're volunteers) rather than common people with normal jobs.

But ultimately I agree with you, I think people in general need to understand that ultimately when using a tool made by people for average soldiers to use average people will be able to learn to use it. At the end of the day soldiers are people too and you do the species a disservice by assuming that these things are beyond the common man to control. You really can't rule anything out.

Oh man, we wouldn't want that to happen. Won't someone think of the species?

 

[PotatoeMasher]

Bizarre scene. Incoming shitstorm when we find out what's in those papers that Malaysia is being forced to sign in exchange for the black boxes?

 

[Nivash]

Bizarre scenes. Black boxes being given to Malaysian delegation in front of world's press:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Black boxes will be passed to Malaysians. Right now. Surreal scenes at 1.10am on the 11th floor of this occupied government building</p>&mdash; Shaun Walker (@shaunwalker7) <a href="https://twitter.com/shaunwalker7/statuses/491344585516666880">July 21, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

So the magical disappearing boxes have returned. I must admit, I completely expected those to end up buried in some remote forest somewhere.

Nice with some good news for a change.

 

[antonz]

Donetsk Peoples Republic's Russian Leader Borodai is giving a press briefing right now.

&#8207;@maxseddon · 4m
Borodai: "Today was a quite important day in the history of the Donetsk People's Republic." Malaysians onside. #MH17

&#8207;@maxseddon · 1m
Borodai denies again that rebels shot down #MH17. "The Ukrainians had the technical capabilities and the motives to do it."

&#8207;@maxseddon · 30s
Borodai says Kiev isn't interested in an objective #MH17 investigation and tried to scare the foreign experts off.

@maxseddon · 29s
Borodai says #MH17 victims train with 282 bodies and 67 sets of remains is in Donetsk awaiting transfer to Kharkov. Experts accompanying it.

Transfer of Black Boxes to Malaysian Authorities occurs with a signing of memorandum of understanding between Malaysian Authorities and Donetsk People Republic

@ChristopherJM · now
#MH17 black boxes now in hands Malaysia delegation.

 

[Dr.Acula]

It's fucking comical that they're all coming out with the same shit around the same time. Just happens to have taken this long for Russia to start properly forming this same narrative and start pushing it.

Total coincidence tho

I had to leave the Ukraine News thread because it was a contingent of anti-Ukraine posters torpedoing the dialog. A lot of posters who didn't really follow the story would pop in and try to learn, but were being fed all sorts of propaganda like that there were no Russians in Crimea, or that Ukrainians were shooting protestors etc. I am thankful for GAF mods for banning RT, because who knows how skewed that would be if people were spending all their energy trying to debunk that garbage.

Thankfully this thread and with all the coverage this story is getting (because it's as much a a Western European story as an Eastern one), it's a lot harder to have the wool pulled over the eyes.

It is fact that rebels brought this plane down, arguing otherwise is nuts.

 

[Partial Gamification]

Yes, but he also says that Ukraine military has them too.
[...]

You are suggesting that the Ukrainian government shot the plane down? Or, that Ukrainian forces shot the plane down? I just want to be sure that I understand what you are saying.

 

[DarkFlow]

Yes, but he also says that Ukraine military has them too.



He also said that 30 days are not enough and that you would need around 6 months of training.



That would make sense, right. But then they could have simply used "their" Ukrainian BUK in case they were one of the official Ukrainian BUK teams. And then Ukraine would have been lying again. Even after the crash they denied that rebels had gotten one of their BUKs and blamed Russia instead.

Ukraine government lying is nothing new, so sure - maybe one of the Ukrainian BUKs got used by its own team against Ukrainian aircraft and they also just misfired. But this defection must have happened on the few days right before the airplane crash. If Ukrainian government would have known that, they would have banned the airspace.

Can I get the number to your mental gymnastics coach? He seems top notch.

 

[Zukuu]

Let's hope the boxes haven't been tampered with.


edit:
Regarding the training of the separatists for the BUK:

At a June 30 Pentagon news conference, NATO Supreme Commander Gen. Philip Breedlove said Russia had been providing air defense training to Russian separatists on its side of the border with Ukraine that focused on &#8220;vehicle-borne&#8221; surface-to-air missiles. A vehicle-borne capability would involve a surface-to-air missile with a longer range than portable shoulder-fired missiles known as MANPADS.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politic...ssian-anti-aircraft-training-for-separatists/

 

[Maninthemirror]

How do you tamper with sealed boxes

 

[DarkFlow]

Let's hope the boxes haven't been tampered with.


edit:
Regarding the training of the separatists for the BUK:

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politic...ssian-anti-aircraft-training-for-separatists/

What would they tamper with? The box is just going to show that it crashed, not who or what did it.

 

[Tugatrix]

Donetsk Peoples Republic's Russian Leader Borodai is giving a press briefing right now.




Transfer of Black Boxes to Malaysian Authorities occurs with a signing of memorandum of understanding between Malaysian Authorities and Donetsk People Republic

so they are using the black boxes to force some kind of political recognition? are they that naive to think that Malaysia document it's an "independence card" like "free jail cards" from monopoly? ahaha

 

[Commander Jameson]

I'm not sure how much legal weight that signed "memorandum" carries. What could they do if Malaysia breaks whatever is in the document?

 

[justanotheruserofgaf]

No worries, in the linked article he does suggest Russian involvemnt:


They have trained crews in the area. Its not that hard to imagine separatists being given basic training to operate the vehicle over limited time but who knows. Are there not former Ukrainian soldiers that defected to the separatists? Could they too not have the knowledge of this system?

There is precedent for the Russian soldiers to be operating the equipment and not the natives. During the Korean War for example the Chinese airforce was in fact made up of Russian pilots. Russian and US advisers which were often special operations or intelligence agency operatives often manned air defense equipment such as radars and SAM batteries in Vietnam. Also the Russians would want to keep track of the equipment. Far too often it gets stolen and sold on the black market or waylaid on the way to its destination. For example the Chinese often helped themselves to five finger discounts when the Russians were sending un-escorted weapons and other equipment to the North Vietnamese.

 

[ErnieMcCracken]

I would assume that if Russia actually did such a conspiracy operation, they would not send their B-class team to do it.

But sure, why not. I already wrote that - with the new information from Russia - this may be at least somewhat possible - they wanted to shoot down the Ukraine aircraft and hit the civilian airplane instead. This information is new, Ukraine said that there was NONE of their military aircrafts in the air. Which means they were lying and I have to wonder why they would lie in such a case. Also - that Ukrainian aircraft would have seen what happened. Which means it makes even less sense for them to lie.

In any case, the rebels fit the least.


Or maybe a few Ukraine soldiers thought that it's a Russian aircraft and thought that Russia would be invading Ukraine by air?


They are?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohxJuyfdsXo

around 7:30

It's not even a given that it was actually shot down by a BUK.

You are suggesting that the Ukrainian government shot the plane down? Or, that Ukrainian forces shot the plane down? I just want to be sure that I understand what you are saying.

He has implied that along with some other gems.

 

[syllogism]

Due to the range of the BUK missiles, the Ukrainian military would indeed have to have had the launcher deep in the separatist controlled territory, for no reason at all. The shrapnel damage suggests that the missile hit the front of the aircraft, which further indicates that the missile came from the direction the aircraft was heading - east. Incidentally Snezhnoye, where the sightings of the BUK occurred, is located south east of the crash site.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

He has implied that along with some other gems.

He's basically been picking and choosing what to respond to as it pertains to his narrative. Notice how he hasn't acknowledged the audio recordings at all. It's basically a tactic to divert the discussion to an area where he feels he could at least have a debate over "what if" and "what about" theories.

 

[Dr.Acula]

Ukraine government lying is nothing new, so sure - maybe one of the Ukrainian BUKs got used by its own team against Ukrainian aircraft and they also just misfired. But this defection must have happened on the few days right before the airplane crash. If Ukrainian government would have known that, they would have banned the airspace.

There are some sources that suggest Ukraine had disabled/decommissioned the system, meaning they thought it was inoperable.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-cr...-attack-ukraine-spy-chief-20140720-zuwws.html

That's why there's speculation that Russia supplied critical parts or expertise to the rebels in order to make the weapons active.

But yes, there is a possibility that Ukraine lied about the viability of the arms. However, he rebels did fire it.

 

[jimi_dini]

You are suggesting that the Ukrainian government shot the plane down? Or, that Ukrainian forces shot the plane down? I just want to be sure that I understand what you are saying.

Ukraine military has lots of BUKs in that area. So of course one of those could have shot it down as well. Ruling that out just because some people ITT love that new Ukrainian government simply makes no sense, especially because there is no evidence for any theories at all.

Saying that the Ukrainian government would have shot the plane down would imply that it was on purpose and I never said so and I also don't think so.

I never said once in this thread that I'm assuming that the people responsible did it on purpose. Whoever did it, did not want to shoot down a civilian aircraft.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

He's basically been picking and choosing what to respond to as it pertains to his narrative. Notice how he hasn't acknowledged the audio recordings at all. It's basically a tactic to divert the discussion to an area where he feels he could at least have a debate over "what if" and "what about" theories.

Unlike some full on true-believing RT/InfoWars/VoltaireNet dupes who would be unabashed in their delusions, jimi has retained enough of his self-awareness to avoid saying or doing certain things would make him look bad/stupid/crazy or what have you. This is why his posts are so circumambulatory, evasive, and generally in bad faith rather than proudly nailing his colours to a certain mast.

 

[Partial Gamification]

There is precedent for the Russian soldiers to be operating the equipment and not the natives. During the Korean War for example the Chinese airforce was in fact made up of Russian pilots. Russian and US advisers which were often special operations or intelligence agency operatives often manned air defense equipment such as radars and SAM batteries in Vietnam. Also the Russians would want to keep track of the equipment. Far too often it gets stolen and sold on the black market or waylaid on the way to its destination. For example the Chinese often helped themselves to five finger discounts when the Russians were sending un-escorted weapons and other equipment to the North Vietnamese.

Sure but I'd like to understand where the idea the Ukrainians are responsible came from. I can assume its form lapping up Russian propaganda but maybe there is some evidence that isn't being given its due consideration.

I'm not certain, but it seems to me the AA missile system that downed the plane was under the control of separatists after wading through the news I can find. There have been Russian soldiers involved in this conflict since Crimea, and arguably before but it was this force assertion that established separatist gains.

I am not confident and so I will keep an open mind; but I'm biased against the overtly pro-Russian outlets and could have overlooked something worthwhile.

edit:

Ukraine military has lots of BUKs in that area. So of course one of those could have shot it down as well. Ruling that out just because some people ITT love that new Ukrainian government simply makes no sense, especially because there is no evidence for any theories at all.

Saying that the Ukrainian government would have shot the plane down would imply that it was on purpose and I never said so and I also don't think so.

I never said once in this thread that I'm assuming that the people responsible did it on purpose. Whoever did it, did not want to shoot down a civilian aircraft.

For me, the openness of the Ukrainian government toward an international investigation says a lot, as much as holding onto the crime scene and black boxes for four days. The Russian Defense Minister has posed questions the investigators can consider, I'm not sure they are pertinent toward investigating the crash but they are out there.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Donetsk Peoples Republic's Russian Leader Borodai is giving a press briefing right now.

Transfer of Black Boxes to Malaysian Authorities occurs with a signing of memorandum of understanding between Malaysian Authorities and Donetsk People Republic

Wait, so this is de facto recognition of the "Donetsk People Republic" by Malaysia?? That's...uh...kind of a big deal isn't it? In return for a black box.

 

[LiK]

How do you tamper with sealed boxes

probably can't. i'm sure if anything was touched the experts would notice that immediately.

 

[Showaddy]

The Ukrainian Military hasn't fired a single anti-aircraft shot throughout the entire conflict, why the hell would they set up major anti-aircraft defences when their opposition has no aircraft?

 

[syllogism]

Wait, so this is de facto recognition of the "Donetsk People Republic" by Malaysia?? That's...uh...kind of a big deal isn't it? In return for a black box.

It's a meaningless gesture forced out of them, as Malaysia does not de facto recognize DNR.

 

[FyreWulff]

Wait, so this is de facto recognition of the "Donetsk People Republic" by Malaysia?? That's...uh...kind of a big deal isn't it? In return for a black box.

Sounds like they wanted a country to officially recognize their existence in exchange for the black boxes.

It ultimately doesn't mean anything, though.

 

[spekkeh]

Ukraine military has lots of BUKs in that area.

How would the Ukraine military have lots of BUKs in the middle of the Donetsk People's Republic?

 

[Psychotext]

The Ukrainian Military hasn't fired a single anti-aircraft shot throughout the entire conflict, why the hell would they set up major anti-aircraft defences when their opposition has no aircraft?

They clearly want to make the separatists look bad. I'm sure they also have a bunch of BUKs on the front lines despite them being basically useless there and at risk of capture. Because... well, reasons.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Sounds like they wanted a country to officially recognize their existence in exchange for the black boxes.

It ultimately doesn't mean anything, though.

That's fucking disgusting that they would use this as an opportunity to force that kind of gesture.

 

[Nivash]

Wait, so this is de facto recognition of the "Donetsk People Republic" by Malaysia?? That's...uh...kind of a big deal isn't it? In return for a black box.

That's not exactly within the power of the Malaysian crash investigation team but if the seps were actually clueless enough to try and pull that card they might have played along anyway.

Not like Malaysia can't go "suckers!" tomorrow if that's what happened. What's the seps gonna do - sanction them?

 

[Wessiej]

The Ukrainian Military hasn't fired a single anti-aircraft shot throughout the entire conflict, why the hell would they set up major anti-aircraft defences when their opposition has no aircraft?

Really every expert is saying that it were the rebellions, why are we even questioning it?

 

[jimi_dini]

For me, the openness of the Ukrainian government toward an international investigation says a lot, as much as holding onto the crime scene and black boxes for four days.

Wait, I thought the black boxes were in possession of the rebels, not the Ukrainian government.

 

[justanotheruserofgaf]

That area is rebel controlled. It from what I understand the rebels that were denying access to investigators and black boxes not the Ukrainian gov't.

 

[Raist]

If the separatists didn't shoot down the plane, then who did?

 

[Chariot]

For me, the openness of the Ukrainian government toward an international investigation says a lot, as much as holding onto the crime scene and black boxes for four days. The Russian Defense Minister has posed questions the investigators can consider, I'm not sure they are pertinent toward investigating the crash but they are out there.

The seperatists (I won't call them by their name. They're just seperatists.) would like to be the Ukraining Government, but they aren't.

 

[ab.aeterno]

He's basically been picking and choosing what to respond to as it pertains to his narrative. Notice how he hasn't acknowledged the audio recordings at all. It's basically a tactic to divert the discussion to an area where he feels he could at least have a debate over "what if" and "what about" theories.

If the audio is acknowledged, it must also then be acknowledged as being real, which rather inconveniently shoots down the argument that the rebels decided to take credit for something they thought they did but obviously didn't do because reasons. Obviously a more compelling argument is that they took credit for it without really doing it for some reason, instead of it being, you know, because they actually shot it down but didn't realize what that was until it was too late. You know, just like the confirmed audio recordings state.