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[DragoonKain]

I was at Rite Aid today and someone was about 3-4 feet away from me telling the pharmacist they feel really sick and want a COVID test. She was facing away from me, she had a mask on and I had an N95 on. Not sure if I should be concerned, I immediately walked way away from her when I heard her say that.

 

[CharmingCharlie]

But do you understand the frustration when the UK and the US has through various means have stopped vaccine exports - and I am not blaming anyone since the situation is quite dire - and then the UK government and newspapers uses fairly rough rhetoric vis-a-vis the EU when the EU considers dong the same? It is really a case of the pot calling kettle black.

I really want to know where this impression is coming from that the UK even has vaccines to export. We are a research and service based economy, our manufacturing base was killed off decades ago thanks to good old Maggie Thatcher. We currently have 2 factories producing the Oxford-Astrazeneca Vaccine the maximum capacity of both these factories is a combined 2 million doses .............. A WEEK. That is assuming best case scenario and good product yields. So it would be more accurate to state the UK as a whole has a manufacturing capacity of 1 - 2 million doses per week. The EU currently wants 400 million. Anything the UK could supply would not even make a mere pimpled scratch in EU demands but would set back the UK vaccination effort.

So all those yelling "THE UK HAS A VACCINE BAN RAH RAH RAH" please tell me how much of our production should we devote to making a completely pointless token gesture that will do absolutely nothing to abate the EU's vaccine situation but only serve to make ours worse.

I was at Rite Aid today and someone was about 3-4 feet away from me telling the pharmacist they feel really sick and want a COVID test. She was facing away from me, she had a mask on and I had an N95 on. Not sure if I should be concerned, I immediately walked way away from her when I heard her say that.

I wouldn't lose that much sleep over it. If you were both wearing masks and the contact time was less than 10 - 15 mins it is highly unlikely you would have caught anything.

 

[Jezbollah]

But do you understand the frustration when the UK and the US has through various means have stopped vaccine exports - and I am not blaming anyone since the situation is quite dire - and then the UK government and newspapers uses fairly rough rhetoric vis-a-vis the EU when the EU considers dong the same? It is really a case of the pot calling kettle black.

"Various means?" - they are using all the vaccines they are making. How is that blocking exports? They have nothing to export..

The EU on the other hand, are complaining about stocks they aren't receiving (and that's now blown in the water thanks to the 16 million they found in Italy) for vaccines they're not using, thanks to a smear campaign by leaders who only have their own procurement process to blame for a shit deal.

I agree, it's quite clear there's a pot/kettle situation here, but it's not where you think it's located.

 

[FireFly]

But do you understand the frustration when the UK and the US has through various means have stopped vaccine exports - and I am not blaming anyone since the situation is quite dire - and then the UK government and newspapers uses fairly rough rhetoric vis-a-vis the EU when the EU considers dong the same? It is really a case of the pot calling kettle black.

You can say that there has been a double standard since the US export ban has received comparatively little coverage. But I think one key difference is that the EU is founded on the commitment to the free movement of goods and services. So "protectionism", even "vaccine protectionism" is completely antithetical to that. If the situation were reversed and vaccine producers had signed contracts with the EU preventing doses from reaching the UK, then you could object to that as a matter of fairness, just as you can with the UK's policy (hence the negotiations). But you couldn't accuse the EU of undermining their core principles or giving ammunition to those who believe that "globalism" is bad.

 

[Jezbollah]

 

[GamingKaiju]

But do you understand the frustration when the UK and the US has through various means have stopped vaccine exports - and I am not blaming anyone since the situation is quite dire - and then the UK government and newspapers uses fairly rough rhetoric vis-a-vis the EU when the EU considers dong the same? It is really a case of the pot calling kettle black.

The U.K. media have been hoping loons over this but the Gov has stayed relatively quiet on the subject and again we have very little industrial capacity to manufacture these vaccines, like I would understand if we were manufacturing more than we currently are but we don’t have the capacity. This point seems to keep been missed we are not manufacturing enough for domestic and international demand it’s a not desirable position to be in.

This pandemic comes during the UKs spilt from the EU so our Country is not setup for massive industrial expanse as we spent 40 years adjusting to a different economy then the one we need right now. This subject would lead us into a off topic discussion so we’ll leave it there.

Do I understand the frustrations, yes but the U.K. isn’t the bad guy here. Diplomacy is much needed not sabre rattling and vaccine nationalism these initial shortages will pass then Country’s will be sat on huge stockpiles.

 

[Jezbollah]

Its funny the EU doesnt consider the UK's supply chain from India as one reason we're getting a good supply of OAZ vaccine to use here.

 

[Chaplain]

 

[ManaByte]

That's because a bunch of churches in the US are telling their congregations that the vaccine is literally the Mark of the Beast.

 

[arkhamguy123]

Goddamn right we are.

 

[TheContact]

had a sinus infection, got tested for covid at their recommendation even though i'm fully vaccinated. it came back negative but really any cold-related symptom they just test for covid now

 

[Ascend]

had a sinus infection, got tested for covid at their recommendation even though i'm fully vaccinated. it came back negative but really any cold-related symptom they just test for covid now

In a way, I don't really understand the purpose of the tests anymore. It's not like they can do anything to help you if you test positive. The only difference is that you're treated like you're radioactive, and more fear is spread with the inflating numbers.

 

[llien]

Well, each bag contains around 200 M&Ms apparently. So 1/50,000 bags would kill you. Therefore if you eat a bag a day, that's 20 micromorts a day, which is like going sky diving or scuba diving twice a day.

The difference is that you only need to get vaccinated once (or twice if we're counting both doses). So if the bag of M&M's will also stop you from getting Covid, I think you should take it.

Oh, fair enough.
No problem with that though.
Say, one out of... heck, 30 million of MARS sticks is deadly.
And for M&M let's make it "per bag", shall we.

So you know for a fact that:
1) one out of 30 million of MARS sticks
2) one out of 10 million bags of M&M

kills. Micromorty enough?
OK to eat ten bags of M&M and ten MARS stick (and, say, stop afterwards)

And to make it a point: death is... something rather serious that we humans tend to minimize risk of.
In this case, we have other deadly source.
So it becomes about managing the risks.
Had there been no good alternatives, the choice would have been obvious (although many would still opt for no vaccination, heck, nearly all women that I know). But with other vaccines in town, if there is a choice of micromorty thingy today, or non-micromorty tomorrow, why take micromorty?

 

[llien]

EU leaders back tightening vaccine exports at Brussels summit

European Commission President Ursula Von der Leyen said that the EU needed pharmaceutical companies to match Europe's openness to exports. #EuropeNews

www.euronews.com

Just facts:

1) the "declare, before you export from EU" rule is already active. Out of 300 requests only one was denied
2) Of 120 million jabs promised in by AZ in Q1 to EU, only 30 million have been delivered
3) EU plans to vaccinate 70% of adults by June

 

[llien]

EU denies Russian claims of blocking Sputnik V vaccine, states Russia submitted application just a few days ago, decision on it will be made mid April.

So far 4 vaccines were approved: Biontech-Pfizer, Moderna, AZ, Johnson&Johnson

Russia and China use COVID jabs as 'means of propaganda', France says

"China, Russia are conducting a policy of influence through the vaccine even before vaccinating their own population," France's top diplomat said on Friday.

www.euronews.com

 

[arkhamguy123]

In a way, I don't really understand the purpose of the tests anymore. It's not like they can do anything to help you if you test positive. The only difference is that you're treated like you're radioactive, and more fear is spread with the inflating numbers.

I was just talking about this the other guy with a like minded dude on reddit. When and where are we gonna draw the line this year with counting cases? I mean of course any sickness we document because thats how data works but I was doing some research and was staggered. 2019-2020 saw between 39 to 56 MILLION cases of the flu in one calendar year. There was a week we had 4 MILLION cases in a 7 day period. I didn't even know about this and had to dig up data from last year on google. Nobody was alarmed nobody was panicked. When does COVID hit the same status? I'm curious to see. Because eventually case counts really have to stop mattering at least on a "this is a news headline" kinda scale.

 

[arkhamguy123]

Cause I mean what is it gonna be 2026 and you see on CNBC "USA reports 19k covid cases on this random Tuesday, weather at 11"? Fuck no. Eventually its gonna dissipate.

 

[FireFly]

Oh, fair enough.
No problem with that though.
Say, one out of... heck, 30 million of MARS sticks is deadly.
And for M&M let's make it "per bag", shall we.

So you know for a fact that:
1) one out of 30 million of MARS sticks
2) one out of 10 million bags of M&M

kills. Micromorty enough?
OK to eat ten bags of M&M and ten MARS stick (and, say, stop afterwards)

And to make it a point: death is... something rather serious that we humans tend to minimize risk of.
In this case, we have other deadly source.
So it becomes about managing the risks.
Had there been no good alternatives, the choice would have been obvious (although many would still opt for no vaccination, heck, nearly all women that I know). But with other vaccines in town, if there is a choice of micromorty thingy today, or non-micromorty tomorrow, why take micromorty?

Well 1/10 million really is not a big risk. That's 0.1 micromorts, which is like driving 20 miles in a car. Even eating 10 bags would be 1 micromort, which is the risk you incur simply by going out of your house daily, so again, not a big risk.

I think it would need to be like 1/100,000 to be significant, or 10 micromorts, which would be a notably "risky" activity. So it might be that the M&M bags carry a risk of 10 micromorts and the Mars bars carry a risk of 1 micromort. In that case it would be rational to opt for the Covid protecting Mars bar if you didn't have a preference for one over the other and both were available. However where the choice is between consuming the Covid protecting M&M's today, and waiting X number of days for the Covid protecting Mars bar, it depends on how much extra risk waiting incurs per day. When new daily cases are 1/5000 of the population– as they are above or close to in several European nations – then if you're in a vulnerable group, you could plausibly incur 10 micromorts per day by waiting. So in that case you should be indifferent between taking the M&M's today and waiting tomorrow for the Mars bar. And if you had to wait longer than a single day, waiting would not be rational.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

EU leaders back tightening vaccine exports at Brussels summit

European Commission President Ursula Von der Leyen said that the EU needed pharmaceutical companies to match Europe's openness to exports. #EuropeNews

www.euronews.com

Just facts:

1) the "declare, before you export from EU" rule is already active. Out of 300 requests only one was denied
2) Of 120 million jabs promised in by AZ in Q1 to EU, only 30 million have been delivered
3) EU plans to vaccinate 70% of adults by June

On number 2 here it is quite ironic and amusing that the UK have been just as under supplied by AZ as the EU. We were promised 30 million doses by the end of 2020 (got 4 million) and 100 million by the end of June (got ~20 million to date). I understand to a degree why the EU might have a beef with AZ but taking it out of the UK for the most part is really not the answer.

I'm guessing AZ will run a mile from the next offer of partnering up to make another vaccine!

 

[llien]

Well 1/10 million really is not a big risk. That's 0.1 micromorts, which is like driving 20 miles in a car. Even eating 10 bags would be 1 micromort, which is the risk you incur simply by going out of your house daily, so again, not a big risk.

That is not how it works though.
Alternative of eating MARS micromorts is... not eating micromorts.
Whereas there is no reasonable alternative to driving / leaving house.

Human behavior in regards of risks is pretty irrational and driven by perception, rather than hard numbers. (on top of it)

Now, bringing in Covid vaccine changes the picture, since that protects you from something else that is deadly.
And it might be rational (stats/math perspective) to take AZ jab instead of waiting for X weeks for alternatives, but that's not something I could convince my wife do (and not the way I feel is right, frankly, when I count in rather low risks of contracting the virus multiplied by low risk of dying from it vs guaranteed taking of spooky micromorts)

On number 2 here it is quite ironic and amusing that the UK have been just as under supplied by AZ as the EU. We were promised 30 million doses by the end of 2020 (got 4 million) and 100 million by the end of June (got ~20 million to date)

The 30m by end of 2020 is a curious promise, may I ask for the source?
End of June is whopping 3 months away and I assume you mean "total", as in "70 million more" right?

Vaccine production was supposed to ramp up over time and if UK bough 100 million, as I read on BBC, 30 of that coming in 2020 is quite peculiar a schedule.

 

[llien]

So, BBC on orders from AZ:

The UK has ordered 100 million doses. Almost all will come from within the UK, but 10 million doses are being made by the Serum Institute in India.
Half of these have already been received, with half held up by delays.

EU has ordered 400 million doses.
So, one would have expected delivery to be roughly 1 to 4, not 1 to 1, as it seems to be the case now.

And curious part on what's in the contract:

The company said its agreement with the EU allowed the option of supplying Europe from UK sites, but only once the UK had sufficient supplies.
The full details of the company's deals with the UK and the EU have not been made public. But analysis by the Politico website points to a clause in the UK's contract which says the government "may terminate the deal and invoke what appear to be punishment clauses" if there is a delay in supply.

Note that row was not even about exports from UK, but shortages in EU deliveries on top of millions jabs being exported from EU to UK.

 

[FireFly]

That is not how it works though.
Alternative of eating MARS micromorts is... not eating micromorts.
Whereas there is no reasonable alternative to driving / leaving house.

Human behavior in regards of risks is pretty irrational and driven by perception, rather than hard numbers. (on top of it)

Now, bringing in Covid vaccine changes the picture, since that protects you from something else that is deadly.
And it might be rational (stats/math perspective) to take AZ jab instead of waiting for X weeks for alternatives, but that's not something I could convince my wife do (and not the way I feel is right, frankly, when I count in rather low risks of contracting the virus multiplied by low risk of dying from it vs guaranteed taking of spooky micromorts)

It's hard to find up to date figures, but looks like there were 9 deaths that were possibly linked to the vaccine, out of 20 million vaccinations.

COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca: benefits still outweigh the risks despite possible link to rare blood clots with low blood platelets | European Medicines Agency

www.ema.europa.eu

So that would be less than a 1 in 2 million chance of dying as a result of the vaccination. So if you stayed at home for a single extra day, you should be back where you started risk wise. But I think you are exactly right with people not caring about micromorts, and that's part of my point. People don't care about really small risks unless they are somehow made salient to them by some event that sticks in their mind. We don't consider the risk of getting killed in a mundane way, like being a victim of a traffic accident, but we do fixate on being a victim of terrorism, when the risks are miniscule in comparison. So when you think about the "danger" of being vaccinated, you imagine yourself as the one that found that 1 lethal M&M, but you don't think about the fact that every time you eat something there is chance the food is spoiled or contaminated. (Eating in restaurants where you don't get to see the food prepared in some sense is "optional", just like going on holiday is).

But I think the strongest analogy is something like a seatbelt wearing. We can imagine that in certain situations, like where your car ends up on fire or underwater, wearing a seatbelt could cost you your life, if it causes you to get trapped. If that's the case then in some sense you are "consuming" micromorts every time you stick your seatbelt on, as with the vaccine. But does it feel that way? Or does it feel like you are protecting yourself against the far likelier chance of getting thrown through the windshield to your death, or hopelessly crushed by your own momentum?

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

The 30m by end of 2020 is a curious promise, may I ask for the source?
End of June is whopping 3 months away and I assume you mean "total", as in "70 million more" right?

Vaccine production was supposed to ramp up over time and if UK bough 100 million, as I read on BBC, 30 of that coming in 2020 is quite peculiar a schedule.

The source was a BBC Newsnight report a couple of days ago. 30 Million was what AZ aimed to provide the UK by the end of 2020 but delivered 4 million in the end. Scaling up the vaccine proved much more difficult than AZ thought....But all parties need to just accept this shit is hard and help each other to make it happen as quick as possible instead of this threatening behaviour that will only lead to everyone suffering.

I read today the Netherlands plant making the AZ vaccine is now EU approved? So hopefully that is a big help here, though I thought the UK had sent engineers that got the yields up here in the two UK sites were sent to the Netherlands plant to help out months ago.

 

[Jezbollah]

New variant booster jabs are now timetabled. Good.

 

[DragoonKain]

Got my 2nd dose and I'm a little under the weather, but not too bad. Just general body soreness, fatigue and a headache.

 

[Chaplain]

 

[Jezbollah]

Self inflicted.

 

[arkhamguy123]

Self inflicted.

No way? Just no way right? That would be Brazil level bad.

 

[Jezbollah]

No way? Just no way right? That would be Brazil level bad.

I strongly suspect this is an inflated figure, but even if its hald that amount, thats close to the peak of the UK's second wave (60,000 new cases per day) - and given their war with Astrazenica, the leadership in that country has a lot to answer for..

 

[arkhamguy123]

I strongly suspect this is an inflated figure, but even if its hald that amount, thats close to the peak of the UK's second wave (60,000 new cases per day) - and given their war with Astrazenica, the leadership in that country has a lot to answer for..

Brazil and Europe sans UK are kinda holding up the show. (Canada is getting rocked a bit too but those are the main ones). We could've seen our worldwide case trend continue to drop if not for those two. Hope they can get it together in the coming months.

 

[Chaplain]

 

[MisterFalcon]

No way? Just no way right? That would be Brazil level bad.

It's one of those things where the prediction can affect the outcome.

Say you're coach of a team in some sport and you're about to play the champions, a team vastly better then yours. If you're honest you tell your players or the local reporters they meed a miracle win and realistically the best to hope for is to lose not too badly. But of course you don't say that as it will ensure that crushing defeat will come, you will say anything is possible and you have 100% confidence the team can pull off an upset.

Here there are models which have a very wide range of outcomes from very bad to not bad at all. If you predict the not bad at all outcome you make it more likely to actually end up being very bad and vice versa. And since this is not a trivial game outcome but possibly thousands of lives are at stake the morally right choice is to present the worst case scenario.

 

[Ascend]

The article is not exactly convincing. It's pretty much all still speculative;

It is still not clear why people with diabetes suffer more when infected with COVID-19 or why some suffer more than others. Also unclear is whether COVID-19 can cause diabetes. Since the onset of the pandemic, doctors have been reporting patients developing diabetes soon after contracting COVID-19. The researchers hope that establishment of the database will help to discover whether COVID-19 complications can lead to the onset of diabetes. Doctors need to know if such patients were going to develop diabetes anyway, if they were prediabetic and COVID-19 set it off, or if it is possible for people with no inclination to becoming diabetic to develop the disease soon after developing COVID-19.

Also;
They have also noted that it is possible that some patients may have developed diabetes after being given steroids to treat their COVID-19.


In other words, clickbait title. More fear mongering.

 

[Hulk_Smash]

I was at Rite Aid today and someone was about 3-4 feet away from me telling the pharmacist they feel really sick and want a COVID test. She was facing away from me, she had a mask on and I had an N95 on. Not sure if I should be concerned, I immediately walked way away from her when I heard her say that.

Don’t you have the vaccine?

 

[DragoonKain]

Don’t you have the vaccine?

Yeah, but it takes 2 weeks after the 2nd shot to get full efficacy. And people who take the meds I do weren't part of the trials so I'm not sure if I ever-n get full e4fficacy or not yet.

 

[Algan]

I'm Brazilian and the situation is very complicated here. Some states have decided to anticipate several holidays in a single week for people to stay in their homes. They’re calling it a “super holiday”.

 

[Hulk_Smash]

Yeah, but it takes 2 weeks after the 2nd shot to get full efficacy. And people who take the meds I do weren't part of the trials so I'm not sure if I ever-n get full e4fficacy or not yet.

Hmmm... Not a professional here but I would think you’re ok. Especially now they’re saying 15 min AND 3 feet not 6. And you have had the vaccine. Even if you get it you at least won’t die from it.

My 2 cents.

 

[Chaplain]

Yeah, but it takes 2 weeks after the 2nd shot to get full efficacy. And people who take the meds I do weren't part of the trials so I'm not sure if I ever-n get full e4fficacy or not yet.

Ya, you are right. However, the first shot gives 80% protection. I would call Rite Aid and ask to talk to the pharmacist. Speaking with the pharmacist should help address any fears that you have from your experience. ^_~

Edited

 

[Jezbollah]

Good move by the UK Government.

 

[Forsete]

So the guy I work with might have got it. He got tested today, he will know the results tomorrow at the earliest.

If I've I got it from him I will start feeling sick by tomorrow at the earliest.

Lets nuke China next time, OK?

 

[ManaByte]

Lets nuke China next time, OK?

 

[arkhamguy123]

I'm mad boys. This spike we're seeing. Driven by the younger demographics/spring break partiers. Being college age myself I know many who KNOW it is wrong and will drive spread. Who KNOW it is selfish and stupid. And STILL went to Florida anyway and I have to see snap stories of packed bars of them partying. It's a stunning level of moral bankruptcy that honestly just depresses me more than anything. We need to get vaccines out for all 18-29 year olds ASAP.

 

[arkhamguy123]

And now that downward case trend that was riiiiight on the edge/could've gone either way is inevitably gonna go up with hospitalizations to follow giving the media another month of doomer gloomer articles before it goes back down again.

 

[ManaByte]

I'm mad boys. This spike we're seeing. Driven by the younger demographics/spring break partiers. Being college age myself I know many who KNOW it is wrong and will drive spread. Who KNOW it is selfish and stupid. And STILL went to Florida anyway and I have to see snap stories of packed bars of them partying. It's a stunning level of moral bankruptcy that honestly just depresses me more than anything. We need to get vaccines out for all 18-29 year olds ASAP.

CA is vaccinating everyone over 16 in two weeks.

 

[Chaplain]

Edited

 

[Jezbollah]

letthemfight.gif

 

[T8SC]

So the guy I work with might have got it. He got tested today, he will know the results tomorrow at the earliest.

If I've I got it from him I will start feeling sick by tomorrow at the earliest.

Lets nuke China next time, OK?

 

[Hulk_Smash]

I'm mad boys. This spike we're seeing. Driven by the younger demographics/spring break partiers. Being college age myself I know many who KNOW it is wrong and will drive spread. Who KNOW it is selfish and stupid. And STILL went to Florida anyway and I have to see snap stories of packed bars of them partying. It's a stunning level of moral bankruptcy that honestly just depresses me more than anything. We need to get vaccines out for all 18-29 year olds ASAP.

You’re right about getting the vaccine out. That needs to happen. But pump the hate brakes on the morality train there. No one is morally bankrupt for spreading a virus. That action is and always has been morally neutral.

Besides, they’re already getting drunk, making dumb decisions, spreading STDs and have been doing that every year. But NOW they’re morally bankrupt for a virus that might, could, sorta, maybe spread to someone who is immune compromised, hasn’t had COVID already, and doesn’t have the vaccine yet? I don’t think so.

The warmer weather is bringing everyone out not just partiers. You’ll see in a couple of weeks, this “rise” will be a blip on the radar.

 

[arkhamguy123]

You’re right about getting the vaccine out. That needs to happen. But pump the hate brakes on the morality train there. No one is morally bankrupt for spreading a virus. That action is and always has been morally neutral.

Besides, they’re already getting drunk, making dumb decisions, spreading STDs and have been doing that every year. But NOW they’re morally bankrupt for a virus that might, could, sorta, maybe spread to someone who is immune compromised, hasn’t had COVID already, and doesn’t have the vaccine yet? I don’t think so.

The warmer weather is bringing everyone out not just partiers. You’ll see in a couple of weeks, this “rise” will be a blip on the radar.

No man I hear you but you're missing what I said, they KNOW it is wrong, the people I know personally and do it anyways. Doing the opposite of what they themselves regard as the right thing to do, hinges on moral bankruptcy at the least. I don't mean to ride a high horse, I'm just frustrated. Yeah like you said spreading a virus unwittingly is not a malicious thing, but complete apathy and disregard while you basically purposely put yourself in a place that will be a super spreader event kinda is.

 

[Jezbollah]

Covid-19: Mexico revises coronavirus death toll up by 60%

The revised figures indicate Mexico has the second highest number of Covid-related deaths in the world.

www.bbc.co.uk

One of the biggest stories as the world eventually exits from this pandemic will be the level of coverups like this that will eventually rear its head.