I Wanna Be The Guy
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
I disagree.
PS - This also applies to bullet hell shmups.
I'd argue SMB and VVVVVV just aren't very good and not particurly challenging, but I know Stump would ban me so
I'd argue SMB and VVVVVV just aren't very good and not particurly challenging, but I know Stump would ban me so
Well, they don't demand excellency. I remember my friend telling me how it let him down when he told his little nephew beat one of the later levels in SMB with small preparations - it took him twice as much time, but he just learned the level with his muscle memory. So much for that feeling of victory he felt earlier!
I would not say that there is no challenge in SMB, but it can be nullified by memorizing the levels. That's what checkpoint-heavy structure does to games - and it's the reason people play through all these indie masocore releases, but can't be bothered to finish classic NES platformers. It's a challenge, yeah, but a challenge even kids can overcome thanks to bite-sized structure.
It is possible you are correct. It is possible you are incorrect and just projecting your own frustration or lack of skill with the games a the games being unfair. One way we can test to see which of those hypotheses is correct is to try to demonstrate whether or not there is a significant skill gap between a low-skill user, a medium skill user, and a high skill user.
Given the extensive leaderboard competition on each title, it seems likely that there is an element of skill. Is your assertion that the explanation for differing leaderboard times is simple a rigid devotion to wasting time improving leaderboard scores, rather than technique experimentation? You really don't think it's about quick synthesis of available on-screen material, reaction time, and mastery of control subtleties? You just think it's muscle memory and rote memorization?
The same applies to, say, the practice of 1CCing a bullet hell shoot-em-up rather than credit-feeding it.
You might also test by comparing the difficulty of earlier levels to the difficulty of higher levels. Is Super Meat Boy 1-6 comparable to Super Meat Boy 7-5X? For your theory to be true, the main difference in difficulty should not be number of obstacles or their interplay, but rather length of the level / level a player is required to play without error.
If anything the stakes in maso-core games are too low.
Die in Super Meat Boy? Restart immediately and lose what, 10-15 seconds of progress.
On the other hand, miss a jump in Ninja Gaiden? Beginning of the level, homie.
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You make a good point and a bad point. The good thing you pointed out is the difference between a game like Super Meat Boy and 8-bit platformers. There is significantly less punishment and therefore less frustration in a game like Meat Boy. The challenge comes purely from the challenge itself, not the fact the game sends you back really far and you have to repeat large sections.
The bad point you made was implying that this is a bad thing.
I grew up on the NES so I've played my fair share of difficult video games. What I want to talk about here though is this retro-chic trend of indie platformers that instantly throw you into the shit.
To name a few:
Super Meat Boy
VVVVVV
Super House of Dead Ninjas
Cloudberry Kingdom
Electronic Super Joy
The reason these types of games are not rewarding is that as soon as you make it past the very brief tutorial that goes over the mechanics there is no learning curve at all. No room for improvisation. The entire point of the game is a binary code, digital rewiring of your human brain to be as precise as a robot for as long as your patience lasts.
As much as I love indies and as much as I love platformers, until these developers learn how to create a learning curve these types of games can fuck right off.
Or maybe I'm missing something... Feel free to explain the appeal to these types of games if you disagree with me.
PS - This also applies to bullet hell shmups.
Super Meat Boy was one of the most satisfying games I ever played.
I agree.
By that logic, every game could improve from being rogue.
"If you die in Mario, you die in real life".
Or at the very least put a 5 minutes cool down between one try and the next in whatever is your favorite game.
Despite offering more variety of possible approaches, i disagree that a game like SMB3 isn't also greatly dependent on level memorization and muscle memory.
It's just that the levels are longer, so you have to memorize more, and more open, so you have to first find the right approach. (which are potentially good things)
Everything else is wasted time.
You make a good point and a bad point. The good thing you pointed out is the difference between a game like Super Meat Boy and 8-bit platformers. There is significantly less punishment and therefore less frustration in a game like Meat Boy. The challenge comes purely from the challenge itself, not the fact the game sends you back really far and you have to repeat large sections.
The bad point you made was implying that this is a bad thing.
No learning curve in meatboy? That game was basically textbook game design in learning curves.
Every level introduces you to a way different way to traverse and different obstacles, and then those obstacles/enemies get more insane, but you are conditioned to know how to beat them.
Super Meat Boy was so fucking satisfying.
This is actually quite an interesting discussion, i am currently doing research on the Masocore genre, it is interesting to see a discussion happening on these very forums about that subject!
But the genre in itself and its genesis is still somewhat unknown, but the fact is that mascore is a genre broader than just games like super meat boy and the like. Dark Souls in particular is a great example of a Masocore game, but in a completely different genre. This might suggest that masocore isn't a genre, in the sense that we understand genres but more of adhering to a set number of design principles inspired by older games, where the difficulty wasn't nessacerily a result of what we today would call. Good game design.
using the terms punishment and frustration to describe when games ask a lot of you is a quick way to being a scrub
The second most terrifying part for me was getting to the very end... realizing I forgot one trinket in a pretty simple room... and then realizing there was no warp at the end. I decided I didn't want to go all the way back to get it lmaoVVVVVV only has a few sections I'd call extremely difficult, and most of those are for optional goodies. There's only ONE part I'd call Masochistic (if you've played it you probably know the one, haha).
The game is all about learning the different ways it uses its mechanic. This area swaps your direction when you pass a line, this section you're leading another guy around, etc.
Each area starts off easy and builds difficulty between the "rooms," which makes for a great learning curve.
Let me know when you get all gold medals in NSMB: U.
Nah they're horribly balanced. They can make a hard mode but they don't.If you don't think that Super Meat Boy gets harder and harder as the game goes on, then I'm not sure you've even played.
Honestly, and I'm not trying to attack you personally, but it just might not be a skill set that you are particularly good at. Like I am with most RTS'. You can learn to get better, but I will never be good at them.
So I'm a scrub at platformers now am I? Ok show of hands. Who here has beaten I Wanna Be The Guy on very hard mode? Either raise your hand or be quiet.
I really don't know what to say other than "yes they are".
It's about overcoming a challenge and absolutely mastering the mechanics and controls.
The purest form of gaming.
Wasted time is a necessary punishment because it provides the proper impetus to not die.
This is where balance comes in. Obviously just sticking longer Meat Boy style levels into a standard structure won't work because it's way way too easy to die in Meat Boy so it just becomes frustrating.
Meatboy and vvvvvv are fair and balanced. Boshy and iwtbtg are not.
Some people enjoy this. Let them.
If anything the stakes in maso-core games are too low.
Die in Super Meat Boy? Restart immediately and lose what, 10-15 seconds of progress.
On the other hand, miss a jump in Ninja Gaiden? Beginning of the level, homie.
in what circles is this an accomplishment
iwbtg is a pretty bad game