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Matt Hargett on lockhart (5nm, portable device) Will Not Hold Back Next-Gen Games

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OptimistPrime

Member
thicc_girls_are_teh_best said:
A portable doesn't have to be a handheld, FWIW. Something that's more a tablet style (which Switch actually fits the description of), isn't necessarily a handheld (and certainly doesn't just fit into your pants pocket), but it's still portable.

A 20 CU Series S Portable is very possible; with a good enough docking station that can provide integrated cooling to let it perform at higher levels, meanwhile if undocked you just drop the clocks by a ton (but still enough for, say, 720p). None of this impossible, it would just require a lot of foresight into the design process and leveraging appropriate technologies the right way.

MS are in an interesting position on that note, so I'm looking forward to seeing what they have WRT Series S.
Click to expand...

With the SSD, one of the “apps” you can swap between could be a Windows desktop. 10” Surface Series S with integrated gaming controls?
 
MasterCornholio

MasterCornholio

Member
thicc_girls_are_teh_best said:
A portable doesn't have to be a handheld, FWIW. Something that's more a tablet style (which Switch actually fits the description of), isn't necessarily a handheld (and certainly doesn't just fit into your pants pocket), but it's still portable.

A 20 CU Series S Portable is very possible; with a good enough docking station that can provide integrated cooling to let it perform at higher levels, meanwhile if undocked you just drop the clocks by a ton (but still enough for, say, 720p). None of this impossible, it would just require a lot of foresight into the design process and leveraging appropriate technologies the right way.

MS are in an interesting position on that note, so I'm looking forward to seeing what they have WRT Series S.
Click to expand...

Well what you described is a handheld that can connect to a TV screen. For me a portable console would he just a really small console like the Wii or the Wii U.

The issue with issue is that I agree that you can increase the clocks due to not having to worry about the battery. However heat will be an issue since a handheld form factor doesn't allow for alot of cooling to happen. Which can cause issues with the system overheating as a result.

So far from what I've seen from these two systems (PS5 and XSX) RDNA2 doesn't exactly seem like it doesn't produce alot of heat. That's why I have my doubts in a portable that uses that architecture. I could he proven wrong and I would love to own a Super powerful handheld that can play next gen games but I have some serious doubts about that.

198abb315c6034a802e63c12c213495408237648-800x420.jpg
 
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OptimistPrime

Member
Based on what eastman said over at beyond 3d, it sounds like Lockhart will be used in a variety of products. My guess is that it’s too early for a Switch-sized device, but a slightly smaller Surface style device plus a very cheap living room console released at the same time seems like a good possibility. Maybe a Switch size device could be added to the family after a couple of node shrinks in a few years.
 
jigglet

jigglet

Banned
smithg5 said:
While I don’t think this is true, a 5nm Lockhart is not impossible. The next iPhone launching this fall will have 5nm chips from TSMC.
Click to expand...

iPhone is a premium product with a premium price. Again - we're talking about a budget console. If this was the Series X or the PS5 I'd buy it. But comon now, how gullible are some people?
 
Last edited:
O

OptimistPrime

Member
jigglet said:
iPhone is a premium product with a premium price. Again - we're talking about a budget console. If this was the Series X or the PS5 I'd buy it. But comon now, how gullible are some people?
Click to expand...

I don’t think a portable Lockhart device would be budget priced. Battery and screen alone would add a lot to the price. Why can’t Lockhart be used in more than one device? That is what has been rumored.

All that said, I think it’s too early for portable Lockhart unless it’s in a Surface sized (and priced) device.
 
jigglet

jigglet

Banned
sobaka770 said:
5 nm tech doesn't exist yet for production.

YOu can't just "use" experimental test tech for a console, it's not how chip design and fabrication technology works. BS on this rumor, boo this man!
Click to expand...

Yes but isn't it plausible that they use the most bleeding edge tech in a budget console, bypassing their premium console altogether? And not only that, they chase the Switch, a competitor that Sony learned the hard way isn't a market you can just half-ass with console down-ports?

/s

(seriously some delusional shit going on in this thread)
 
Shin

Shin

Banned
sobaka770 said:
5 nm tech doesn't exist yet for production.
Click to expand...
TSMC will start using it next week (iPhone 12), 7nm slots were freed up due to the move AMD will use that.
It's not like we are talking 5+ millions per month here or anything, it is possible just from a design standpoint it seems weird as 7nm would make more sense.
Which is why I ask why the fuck would Matt from Sony know jackshit about Xbox.
 
O

OptimistPrime

Member
sobaka770 said:
Let me clarify as my initial statement was vague:

I meant that AMD who designs PS5 and Xbox chips is not even thinking about 5nm for RDNA3 yet, there's no way this technology is ready for production on mass scale for console release in 2020 using AMD parts.
Click to expand...

Well, there might be limitations on 5nm capacity that Lockhart might fill up. Also, in some ways it makes more sense to fab smaller dies on bleeding edge process to help with yields. Lastly, reduced power draw makes smaller nodes very appealing for mobile. Consider that Intel only has 10nm laptop parts but has not moved desktop or server chips there yet.

To be clear I don’t think this is happening, I just disagree that it’s impossible it could be 5nm.
 
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SleepDoctor

SleepDoctor

Banned
On one hand it'll be nice if it is cuz that would mean one console sku. On the other, I don't care any handheld/portable device. My launch vita hasn't been turned on in years.
 
jigglet

jigglet

Banned
smithg5 said:
Well, there might be limitations on 5nm capacity that Lockhart might fill up.
Click to expand...

Yes but even that hypothetical situation seems like a reach. If there was excess capacity, how could MS capitalise on this so quickly? Picture this conversation:

TSMC: we have some capacity that's just opened up at the last minute, COVD-19 has reduced demand.

MS: sure, let's change our carefully planned strategy because, why not. I guess we could design, test, and have a new console ready for production in the next 2-3 days. Brb while I email you the specs.
 
B

beni12

Neo Member
if he is talking about something like a tablet, you still need a big battery, screen and good cooling for a portable device. plus 5nm is more expensive than 7nm, so it doesn't seem like 300$ device to me.
 
O

OptimistPrime

Member
jigglet said:
Yes but even that hypothetical situation seems like a reach. If there was excess capacity, how could MS capitalise on this so quickly? Picture this conversation:

TSMC: we have some capacity that's just opened up at the last minute, COVD-19 has reduced demand.

MS: sure, let's change our carefully planned strategy because, why not. I guess we could design, test, and have a new console ready for production in the next 2-3 days. Brb while I email you the specs.
Click to expand...

Its not clear to me why limited capacity translates to a last minute change.
 
cormack12

cormack12

Gold Member
I kind of have a different read on this. I read it like he's taking the piss a bit? Like saying 20 CU's are fine as long as they are 5nm and used in a portable device running these ames at 720/1080?
 
thicc_girls_are_teh_best

thicc_girls_are_teh_best

Member
cormack12 said:
I kind of have a different read on this. I read it like he's taking the piss a bit? Like saying 20 CU's are fine as long as they are 5nm and used in a portable device running these ames at 720/1080?
Click to expand...

If that's the case he's also insulting AMD upcoming mobile APU line as they'll have even less than 20 CUs and are being made for mobile devices, on 7nm at that.

I don't think he's that stupid.

MasterCornholio said:
Well what you described is a handheld that can connect to a TV screen. For me a portable console would he just a really small console like the Wii or the Wii U.

The issue with issue is that I agree that you can increase the clocks due to not having to worry about the battery. However heat will be an issue since a handheld form factor doesn't allow for alot of cooling to happen. Which can cause issues with the system overheating as a result.

So far from what I've seen from these two systems (PS5 and XSX) RDNA2 doesn't exactly seem like it doesn't produce alot of heat. That's why I have my doubts in a portable that uses that architecture. I could he proven wrong and I would love to own a Super powerful handheld that can play next gen games but I have some serious doubts about that.

198abb315c6034a802e63c12c213495408237648-800x420.jpg
Click to expand...

I guess it could also be a portable console with a screen accessory, like the PS One refresh back in 2000 did for that product line.

The thing with lower clocks is, lower clocks mean lower power draw which means less heat, so the cooling can be more compact. And if it were in fact 5nm (as crazy as that may sound right now), that brings in even further power savings thus even less heat.

I think they can get away with handling clock adjustments through a docking accessory, there's some clever engineering that could be done to facilitate it for purposes of enabling much better cooling when docked.
 
MasterCornholio

MasterCornholio

Member
thicc_girls_are_teh_best said:
If that's the case he's also insulting AMD upcoming mobile APU line as they'll have even less than 20 CUs and are being made for mobile devices, on 7nm at that.

I don't think he's that stupid.



I guess it could also be a portable console with a screen accessory, like the PS One refresh back in 2000 did for that product line.

The thing with lower clocks is, lower clocks mean lower power draw which means less heat, so the cooling can be more compact. And if it were in fact 5nm (as crazy as that may sound right now), that brings in even further power savings thus even less heat.

I think they can get away with handling clock adjustments through a docking accessory, there's some clever engineering that could be done to facilitate it for purposes of enabling much better cooling when docked.
Click to expand...

I honestly just think it's going to be a small budget home console and not a portable.

We will find out soon enough what's going to happen.
 
supernova8

supernova8

Banned
(1) Is there any evidence that AMD even has 5nm stuff up and running stable to the point of putting it in a consumer-grade device?
(2) Why would AMD give Microsoft access to 5nm and then not give Sony access to the same thing - or rather why would Sony not use it?
(3) If Lockhart is meant to be the cheaper/budget device, why would Microsoft use a more expensive SoC (newer node) and drive up the cost?
 
RaySoft

RaySoft

Member
Xplainin said:
I don't believe it's 5nm at all. Why either Sony or MS would pay more for 5nm when they can get a perfectly acceptable APU done in 7nm cheaper I don't know.
Matt wasn't involved in the hardware side of it from what I understand, so he might not know the exact of it.
Spoken to him a couple of times, seems like an ok dude.
Click to expand...
Because if it's indeed a portable device, as he claims, they need that 5nm for less powerdraw
 
RaySoft

RaySoft

Member
supernova8 said:
(1) Is there any evidence that AMD even has 5nm stuff up and running stable to the point of putting it in a consumer-grade device?
(2) Why would AMD give Microsoft access to 5nm and then not give Sony access to the same thing - or rather why would Sony not use it?
(3) If Lockhart is meant to be the cheaper/budget device, why would Microsoft use a more expensive SoC (newer node) and drive up the cost?
Click to expand...
It's a new node, so 5nm yields at the sizes that the PS5 and XSX uses would be terrible.. But for a small chip it could be done with higher yields.
 
TheCrimsnFuckr

TheCrimsnFuckr

Member
I highly doubt that it would be a mobile device as that basically goes against their whole subscription method as xCloud will be included with GamePass (probably only ultimate but who knows) if they have a device that can play those games locally and on the go
 
JimboJones

JimboJones

Member
Journey said:
What, do you carry it on your back or something? :messenger_winking_tongue:
Click to expand...
Well they did try advertising the GameCube like that with the included handle, maybe the handle is making a comeback!

I can't see it being a handheld, it would make it a premium pricey handheld, which wouldn't that be the opposite market there aiming for? Price conscious next gen customers?
 
Shin

Shin

Banned
RaySoft said:
for a small chip it could be done with higher yields.
Click to expand...

You're talking to people that absolutely have no interest in technology but they will shoot it down because.
There are only a few in this thread and you can make that out from their informed posts rather than nooooooooooooooooooooooo.
 
supernova8

supernova8

Banned
RaySoft said:
It's a new node, so 5nm yields at the sizes that the PS5 and XSX uses would be terrible.. But for a small chip it could be done with higher yields.
Click to expand...

I suppose the question is whether they have been able to get the 7nm chip Zen2 based chip and then essentially port it over to 5nm, make it so that it'll run everything the other chip will (at lower settings) without any issues (and in a way that doesn't irritate developers who have to work towards one more piece of target hardware) and have it all ready to release at the same time. Seems like a lot of work to do.

Maybe someone with an engineering background can shed some light on this.
 
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