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[Shard]

Maybe Mario, but FF has been doing fine. FFXII did within expected sales +/- 500k.

Well, maybe the argument could be made for portable Final Fantasy.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Maybe Mario, but FF has been doing fine. FFXII did within expected sales +/- 500k.

I'm referring to portable FF in this case.

Sales on the whole in Japan were in the shitter Bebpo. Can't deny that.

 

[Shard]

I'm referring to portable FF in this case.

Sales on the whole in Japan were in the shitter Bebpo. Can't deny that.

Indeed, that seems to be the point Amitron keeps missing, Japan's gaming market was in a pretty bad slump before the DS caught on like wildfire.

 

[Amir0x]

Did you read the last part of my post? About not going straight into original greek manuscripts? Mario and FF may not need saving but their sales were going WAY down. The fact they're selling through the roof (ie real games) is a good sign. Non-games aren't taking over. They are helping to bring new non-gamers, who eventually try "real" games, and get hooked. Becoming new gamers.

I wouldn't expect to see FE or Okami type titles to start getting this positive effect for another year or two. Maybe three. But I honestly expect it to come.

Well, see, I don't think portable FF games are the titles you can say were in the 'shitter' is all. They didn't sell 100,000,000 copies, but they didn't sell 10,000 either


Not to mention, this is a distinctly different type of portable FF game - I don't think it's fair to directly compare them to FFIV Advance or FF Origins, for a number of reasons discussed earlier in the thread

But anyway, to your specific point, if that happens in 2 or 3 years then I will be happy. That's all I am personally saying, I don't see the rewards so I find it difficult to be excited about the direction of the industry. If that happens like you said, then we'll all win. I'll be fine with being wrong if that occurs.

Edit: Shard, I don't think you read anything in this thread.

 

[cvxfreak]

Weren't the original WSC FFs (FFI, II) remakes too? Obviously not to the same scale, but remakes nonetheless.

*not trying to get into the argument here

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Well, see, I don't think portable FF games are the titles you can say were in the 'shitter' is all. Not to mention, this is a distinctly different type of portable FF game - I don't think it's fair to directly compare them to FFIV Advance or FF Origins, for a number of reasons discussed earlier in the thread

But anyway, to your specific point, if that happens in 2 or 3 years then I will be happy. That's all I am personally saying, I don't see the rewards so I find it difficult to be excited about the direction of the industry. If that happens like you said, then we'll all win. I'll be fine with being wrong if that occurs.

I'm already seeing a positive effect overall. Mario especially is a huge affirmative, in less than a year it's going to probably beat all Mario sales records. That definately means there are new gamers.

As for FF even Square underestimated. Again, even when FF games sell a billion a day, they do not go through their shipments. Something is stirring in Japan, and it's like the SFC coming back.

I understand your ambivalence. Why don't we agree to let this argument sit on hold for awhile and we'll revisit it in a year or so. Deal?

 

[Joe Molotov]

IF it was sincerely propping up at any significant level the Okamis and Fire Emblems of the world, once more, I'd be happy about it.

You've mentioned Fire Emblem at least 10 times in this thread, but Path of Radiance came out before Brain Training, back when the PSP was running neck and neck with the DS. And Path of Radiance sold less than previous entries.

 

[Amir0x]

I'm already seeing a positive effect overall. Mario especially is a huge affirmative, in less than a year it's going to probably beat all Mario sales records. That definately means there are new gamers.

As for FF even Square underestimated. Again, even when FF games sell a billion a day, they do not go through their shipments. Something is stirring in Japan, and it's like the SFC coming back.

Oh I agree, someone is buying more games in Japan.

I understand your ambivalence. Why don't we agree to let this argument sit on hold for awhile and we'll revisit it in a year or so. Deal?

Absolutely. I didn't even mean to participate in this thread, but this is definitely something to revisit down the line when we see how things turn out.

You've mentioned Fire Emblem at least 10 times in this thread, but Path of Radiance came out before Brain Training, back when the PSP was running neck and neck with the DS.

I didn't mean to say Fire Emblem had a chance to benefit yet, it was just an example of a title I'd like to see do well for me to celebrate.

 

[Meier]

Maybe Mario, but FF has been doing fine. FFXII did within expected sales +/- 500k.

Uhh that's a pretty big margin of error there. :lol To say that FFXII did anything but underperform would be a fallacy. Even if you did tack another 500k on, sales would be down nearly a million from the heights of the PSX era -- FF game sales are most certainly down from what they once were.

 

[Kurosaki Ichigo]

Btw guys...updated hardware numbers from Enterbrain (famitsu)...

 

[Smiles and Cries]

10.4 million in Japan?

 

[Dragona Akehi]

10.4 million in Japan?

In less than two years. Insane.

 

[Shard]

Edit: Shard, I don't think you read anything in this thread.

No, I have read plenty in this thread, I have seen you over this argument several times over the course of two forums. Christ, you and I got into this argument not too long ago. Maybe not over the portable Final Fantasy and Mario, but certainly over non-games. Your argument is still riddled with logical fallacies and baseless assumptions, not to mention some just plain bald faced lying. You say that you don't give a crap about sales figures about games, and then go on the bloody warpath when something like Xenosaga III or Brain Age draws in more sales then Megaman ZX or Fire Emblem. Your hated is born out of fear that the entire market is going to shift towards games that you hate and all of the games you enjoy are not going to be produced anymore. An old maxim that a lot of people should pay attention to around here a little more is that sales =/= quality. Many great games underperform and many shitty games sell millions, this is not new, but just because Japan has Brain Training fever doesn't mean they are going to drop their RPGs and the platformers.

 

[RaijinFY]

10.4 million in Japan?

No worldwide of course...

Spoiler

of course in Japan

 

[DCharlie]

Maybe Mario, but FF has been doing fine. FFXII did within expected sales +/- 500k.

... that's , what?, 25% of the total sales as a margin on whether its doing fine or not? I'm not sure they'd be that loose with their definition of 'within expected sales' !!

 

[Kurosaki Ichigo]

10.4 million in Japan?

Combined as of 27th August by Enterbrain, yes.


But I posted it to look at PS2 which is 19,764m, so at 20k rate, 20m in 3 months.
Or Gamecube, at 1k rate, 4m in 2'5 months.
Or PSP, at 30k rate, 4m in a month.

 

[Amir0x]

No, I have read plenty in this thread, I have seen you over this argument several times over the course of two forums. Christ, you and I got into this argument not too long ago. Maybe not over the portable Final Fantasy and Mario, but certainly over non-games. Your argument is still riddled with logical fallacies and baseless assumptions, not to mention some just plain bald faced lying. You say that you don't give a crap about sales figures about games, and then go on the bloody warpath when something like Xenosaga III or Brain Age draws in more sales then Megaman ZX or Fire Emblem. Your hated is born out of fear that the entire market is going to shift towards games that you hate and all of the games you enjoy are not going to be produced anymore. An old maxim that a lot of people should pay attention to around here a little more is that sales =/= quality. Many great games underperform and many shitty games sell millions, this is not new, but just because Japan has Brain Training fever doesn't mean they are going to drop their RPGs and the platformers.

None of this has anything to do with this discussion or what I specifically said here. Which I think sort of proves my point!

 

[Bebpo]

Uhh that's a pretty big margin of error there. :lol To say that FFXII did anything but underperform would be a fallacy. Even if you did tack another 500k on, sales would be down nearly a million from the heights of the PSX era -- FF game sales are most certainly down from what they once were.

Not really. 500k is small beans when you are talking about 2million+. FFXII did not underperform unless you count FFX as underperforming as well? FFXII will end up doing within 500k of FFX.

Of course no rpg has sold like rpgs did in the PS1 era, but even FFIII on the DS isn't going to do any better. The rpg market who came in on PS1 grew up and many left.

... that's , what?, 25% of the total sales as a margin on whether its doing fine or not? I'm not sure they'd be that loose with their definition of 'within expected sales' !!

Are you going to tell me that after selling 2 million copies at almost $90 a piece, that Square Enix isn't rolling in the money and laughing themselves silly? 2 million, 2.5 million, 3 million, who cares; they made incredible profits with FFXII and there's absolutely no way they could be unhappy being rich company suits.

 

[Joe Molotov]

Combined as of 27th August by Enterbrain, yes.


But I posted it to look at PS2 which is 19,764m, so at 20k rate, 20m in 3 months.
Or Gamecube, at 1k rate, 4m in 2'5 months.
Or PSP, at 30k rate, 4m in a month.

The Xbox, at 12 rate, will reach 500,000 in 43.3 years.

 

[Kobun Heat]

... that's , what?, 25% of the total sales as a margin on whether its doing fine or not? I'm not sure they'd be that loose with their definition of 'within expected sales' !!

With a margin of error of +/- 25%, do you know how many PSP games have sold over half a million copies?

Probably a couple few!

SEEMS OVER FOR NINTENDO

 

[DCharlie]

Not really. 500k is small beans when you are talking about 2million+

.... i don't know what to say other than "WTF?!"

Are you going to tell me that after selling 2 million copies at almost $90 a piece, that Square Enix isn't rolling in the money and laughing themselves silly? 2 million, 2.5 million, 3 million, who cares; they made incredibly profits with FFXII and there's absolutely no way they could be unhappy being rich company suits.

well, for a start , they don't see all of that $90 - lets be generous and say they make $30 a piece.

So we are up $60 million returned - with an extra 500k copies one way or the other, that becomes around $75 million or $45 million.

Can you see how drastic that is? Whether they are swimming in money is irrelevant when compared to expected sales surely? Especially for a listed company.

 

[Shard]

None of this has anything to do with this discussion or what I specifically said here. Which I think sort of proves my point!

Well, what is your god damned point then?

 

[Bebpo]

.... i don't know what to say other than "WTF?!"

See above.

They made an insane amount of profit off of FFXII. Are you going to tell me that they are going "man, I wish we had sold just 500k more!" and frown when looking at the profits raked in from FFXII sales?

 

[Amir0x]

Well, what is your god damned point then?

Well if you read, Shard, my point was only that there's a perfectly sound reason why people like Tabris and me wouldn't be celebrating yet.

 

[Netrunner2k2]

.... i don't know what to say other than "WTF?!"

I'll second the "WTF?!"

Edit: Ohh.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Well if you read, Shard, my point was only that there's a perfectly sound reason why people like Tabris and me wouldn't be celebrating yet.

Technically, Tabris would never celebrate when it comes to DS success. Even if there was an Okami DS and told a bajillion copies. You two differ there.

 

[Deku]

Not really. 500k is small beans when you are talking about 2million+. FFXII did not underperform unless you count FFX as underperforming as well? FFXII will end up doing within 500k of

How can 25% of anything be considered small beans.

 

[LOCK]

Its amazing to note that the DS will sell more than the PS2 in Japan.

 

[Amir0x]

Technically, Tabris would never celebrate when it comes to DS success. Even if there was an Okami DS and told a bajillion copies. You two differ there.

True enough! If Okami 2 did those kind of numbers I'd hold a party, and you're all invited!

 

[RaijinFY]

See above.

They made an insane amount of profit off of FFXII. Are you going to tell me that they are going "man, I wish we had sold just 500k more!" and frown when looking at the profits raked in from FFXII sales?

This, I'm not so sure of.

 

[DCharlie]

They made an insane amount of profit off of FFXII. Are you going to tell me that they are going "man, I wish we had sold just 500k more!" and frown when looking at the profits raked in from FFXII sales?

... yes, that's exactly what i'm telling you.

Prior to FFXII launching, they'll have said "we intend to sell X copies"

if they fall short of that, then yes - they will be sitting and frowning at the lost profits - especially as they then have to go back to the market and say "we didn't hit our profit targets"

Again, 25% of targetted profits lost is a lot of cash.

How can 25% of anything be considered small beans.

... 25% of nothing?

Bebpo, you previously said the X360 bombed... but aren't they within 25% of their target? around 8 million sold with a target of 10 million? So .... is the X360 a success now?

 

[KINGMOKU]

Not really. 500k is small beans when you are talking about 2million+. FFXII did not underperform unless you count FFX as underperforming as well? FFXII will end up doing within 500k of FFX.

Of course no rpg has sold like rpgs did in the PS1 era, but even FFIII on the DS isn't going to do any better. The rpg market who came in on PS1 grew up and many left.



Are you going to tell me that after selling 2 million copies at almost $90 a piece, that Square Enix isn't rolling in the money and laughing themselves silly? 2 million, 2.5 million, 3 million, who cares; they made incredible profits with FFXII and there's absolutely no way they could be unhappy being rich company suits.

I am in no way involved in whatever discussion your having, but I would like to point out that what you said there, has to be, (No insult meant) the most assinine thing I have ever read in a sales topic.

500,000 copies of a game that sold over 2million is a massive %.

What makes more sense is 50,000 copies, but even that is crazy as even that number is a decent % of overall sales. 5,000-10,000 is the give or tke, not 25%= of a titles total sales.


Thats just ridiculous.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Given that the DS Lite is at 3.97 million in that picture, and it's been 4 days since that data, I guess the DS Lite has hit 4 million in Japan.

Also, DS Lite surpassed PSP LTD. Ouch.

(edit: whoops, missed by a million)

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Given that the DS Lite is at 2.97 million in that picture, and it's been 4 days since that data, I guess the DS Lite has hit 3 million in Japan.

3.97 million, you mean.

 

[Chris Michael]

Technically, Tabris would never celebrate when it comes to DS success. Even if there was an Okami DS and told a bajillion copies. You two differ there.

I'm sure Amirox would find something to argue if a DS version of Okami drastically outsold the PS2 version.

 

[Bebpo]

... yes, that's exactly what i'm telling you.

Prior to FFXII launching, they'll have said "we intend to sell X copies"

if they fall short of that, then yes - they will be sitting and frowning at the lost profits - especially as they then have to go back to the market and say "we didn't hit our profit targets"

So even though they make more money than anyone besides Nintendo, they are frowning and being sad. Ok, I guess you are right; Japanese businessmen are ****ing crazy.

Just look at the PoS Dirge which probably cost a few million (for the CG work) at most to make. They're probably going to make about 40+ million profit on it.

The whole point of this original discussion is they sure as hell don't need "saving" when they're making hundreds of millions of dollars off FF atm.

 

[Amir0x]

so true, Chris Michael. Maybe I'd include something about technology holding back a good game just for you!

 

[Shard]

Well if you read, Shard, my point was only that there's a perfectly sound reason why people like Tabris and me wouldn't be celebrating yet.

Yes, that reason would be insanity, the gist of your early posts and I guess your point in this discussion is that you are angered over the "failure" of games like Okami, Megaman ZX, Fire Emblem, et al in the japanese marketplace. Would that be correct?

 

[Chris Michael]

so true, Chris Michael. Maybe I'd include something about technology holding back a good game just for you!

I'm honored.

 

[KINGMOKU]

I'm sure Amirox would find something to argue if a DS version of Okami drastically outsold the PS2 version.

Nah. Tell him that it would be a guarantee that it would sell 5x more on the DS. That would get him going.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

I'm sure Amirox would find something to argue if a DS version of Okami drastically outsold the PS2 version.

Not if was 2D! 3D BAD 2D GOOD!

 

[Amir0x]

Yes, that reason would be insanity, the gist of your early posts and I guess your point in this discussion is that you are angered over the "failure" of games like Okami, Megaman ZX, Fire Emblem, et al in the japanese marketplace. Would that be correct?

No. See, you're not following. Tabris asked why people find reason to celebrate, and then there was an argument. I expanded on that and said there's a reason people aren't celebrating, such as myself, and [here's why]. People said 'DS is saving games', or 'DS is helping real games do well as an aside.' And I said, well, it's not helping any games that need helping. WHEN that happens, I will celebrate.

That's the entire jist of the discussion.

 

[Amir0x]

Not if was 2D! 3D BAD 2D GOOD!

<3 2D

 

[DCharlie]

So even though they make more money than anyone besides Nintendo, they are frowning and being sad. Ok, I guess you are right; Japanese businessmen are ****ing crazy.

i really can't help you with this - this is just how a listed company works. If you think they are slapping each other on the back going "holy shit we made 200 million profit - who cares that our expected profit is 250" then i think you'll be surprised at how unsympathetic you'd find the board members and the market reaction.

this is not japanese specific - it's just the nature of businesses globablly.

The whole point of this original discussion is they sure as hell don't need "saving" when they're making hundreds of millions of dollars off FF atm.

they don't need saving - but what i'm pointing out is that your notion that being within 25% of a target is acceptable to the business because they still made lots of profit is deeply flawed.

 

[Shard]

No. See, you're not following. Tabris asked why people find reason to celebrate, and then there was an argument. I expanded on that and said there's a reason people aren't celebrating, such as myself, and [here's why]. People said 'DS is saving games', or 'DS is helping real games do well as an aside.' And I said, well, it's not helping any games that need helping. WHEN that happens, I will celebrate.

That's the entire jist of the discussion.

Well, I do quasi-argee with you on the asscertation that the "DS is saving gaming" is a tad hyperbolic I do see where they are coming from. They are stating that since the overall market is gaining greater visability by the success of the top draws the undercard is getting lifted as well.

 

[Great Rumbler]

So even though they make more money than anyone besides Nintendo, they are frowning and being sad. Ok, I guess you are right; Japanese businessmen are ****ing crazy.

Just look at the PoS Dirge which probably cost a few million (for the CG work) at most to make. They're probably going to make about 40+ million profit on it.

$40 million PROFIT?

 

[Amir0x]

Well, I do quasi-argee with you on the asscertation that the "DS is saving gaming" is a tad hyperbolic I do see where they are coming from. They are stating that since the overall market is gaining greater visability by the success of the top draws the undercard is getting lifted as well.

Right. And we all agreed (finally on this page) that we need to see more sales data in another 2 or 3 years and see where the market is at to truly gauge what happened for these other games

 

[Bebpo]

$40 million PROFIT?

1-2 million copies sold worldwide at $70 & $50....yeah I'd say 40-50 million profit sounds about right.

 

[DCharlie]

1-2 million copies sold worldwide at $70 & $50....yeah I'd say 40-50 million profit sounds about right.

dood - that would be revenue.

you need to take out a whole host of costs - i'm not sure how much each copy makes for the company but it IS NOT 100% of the sales value.

then minus the various costs for the game (including the wages of the people who spent 1-2 years working on this , advertising, etc) and you can see why 40-50 million profit might be a bit of a stretch.

 

[Shard]

Right. And we all agreed (finally on this page) that we need to see more sales data in another 2 or 3 years and see where the market is at to truly gauge what happened for these other games

Indeed, though that doesn't mean one should discount trends one sees in the present. Not just the rejuvination of an old stalwart like Mario, but for example look at game number 3 on that list, one Rune Factory. Granted its sales pale in comparison to Final Fantasy III and New Super Mario Brothers, but it is off to a good start considering it is a new established spin-off af a franschise that is pretty niche in and of itself.