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Media Create Sales: Week 41, 2016 (Oct 10 - Oct 16)

Ōkami

Member
On that note, we have any prelim on XenoVerse 2? Feels like that completely snuck out under my nose and I've heard very little about it.
They had a beta last week and have been showing new characters the past few days.

It's a product made for the west though, there isn't much buzz for it in Japan.

Add Overwatch to Nirolak's list, it did pretty well for what it was, Rainbox Six Siege, though wasn't released this year, it became big this year too.
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
Toward the games themselves, that's about how I was expecting both of them to go down.

World of Final Fantasy felt like a confused product in many ways without a clear focus on who its target audience was, and Berserk is an out of time brand in a heavily struggling IP.

World of Final Fantasy's struggles seem irrelevant to Square Enix as a whole though (beyond adding another piece of evidence to the pile that Matsuda's plan to release non-Dragon Quest mid-tier games is probably a bad one and that Wada had it right), while Berserk continues to raise a strong identity crisis for Koei Tecmo if the Musou brand is really dying. However, there's a reason most companies don't normally rely so heavily on one brand, because this can happen.

Oh Dragon Quest Builders came out right at the beginning of the year too!
Okay yes, that's also a very good example.
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
World of Final Fantasy was made to warm my soul and pull me from darkness.
There is an extent to which I feel Square Enix's recent mid-tier line-up was built to please their old fan base only to find that there aren't many of them left who still care or want games like that.

By comparison, Dragon Quest Builders is a title that mixes Square Enix's strengths with a very modern and currently popular genre, and that actually succeeded in a big way.
 

Rolf NB

Member
Soooo do y'all think the Vita audience and Vita-centric devs will migrate to the Switch?
With the second screen gone, rational explanations for developing a game for a single platform are only continuing to evaporate.
Why migrate if you can target two devices with a reasonable control set and 16:9 HDish screens shared on both?

Both using ARM CPUs, too.

"Because I placed the pixels in my hand-placed pixel art specificially for this particular device's screen properties" is now all that remains.
 

Oregano

Member
Toward the games themselves, that's about how I was expecting both of them to go down.

World of Final Fantasy felt like a confused product in many ways without a clear focus on who its target audience was, and Berserk is an out of time brand in a heavily struggling IP.

World of Final Fantasy's struggles seem irrelevant to Square Enix as a whole though (beyond adding another piece of evidence to the pile that Matsuda's plan to release non-Dragon Quest mid-tier games is probably a bad one and that Wada had it right), while Berserk continues to raise a strong identity crisis for Koei Tecmo if the Musiu brand is really dying. However, there's a reason most companies don't normally rely so heavily on one brand, because this can happen.


Okay yes, that's also a very good example.

I think I'd go further than that and say it's another in a long line of failures/disappointments from Square Enix this year or last two years.

I think DQ Builders is the only game across both east and west that has done well compared to expectations in that time period and FFXV probably won't change that.
 
There is an extent to which I feel Square Enix's recent mid-tier line-up was built to please their old fan base only to find that there aren't many of them left who still care or want games like that.

By comparison, Dragon Quest Builders is a title that mixes Square Enix's strengths with a very modern and currently popular genre, and that actually succeeded in a big way.
Hmm? There are dozens.. dozens!! Where's the gif. Xp

But seriously you're right and that's not even just a square enix thing either it seems so few companies are being successful with their mid tier.
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
I think I'd go further than that and say it's another in a long line of failures/disappointments from Square Enix this year or last two years.

I think DQ Builders is the only game across both east and west that has done well compared to expectations in that time period and FFXV probably won't change that.
While I don't disagree with the sentiment, I feel there are a few categories of failure.

Like Eidos' games are also failing, but that's because - despite their gigantic budgets - they come off as mid-tier titles in a THQ-esque way.

Though I guess we could boil it down to being in the mid-tier space in general. Their actual modern indie title (Life is Strange) was an astronomical success with around 1.5 million copies on Steam alone before the first episode went free. Lara Croft on the other hand had the issue of feeling like an older style indie title from the XBLA era, many of which aren't as popular anymore.

Hmm? There are dozens.. dozens!! Where's the gif. Xp

But seriously you're right and that's not even just a square enix thing either it seems so few companies are being successful with their mid tier.
This is very true. I realize this distinction will sound incredibly stupid, but you basically want to be "Big Indie" in 2016 instead of mid-tier, and a lot of that comes down to things like business models and pricing (along with some stylistic choices).
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
There is an extent to which I feel Square Enix's recent mid-tier line-up was built to please their old fan base only to find that there aren't many of them left who still care or want games like that.

By comparison, Dragon Quest Builders is a title that mixes Square Enix's strengths with a very modern and currently popular genre, and that actually succeeded in a big way.

It's strange though, Bravely Default was a moderate success and they managed to complete squander than. Granted the game didn't leave the best of impressions overally, but I feel an expanded sequel with much more effort put in and good word of mouth could have done quite well. It doesn't feel llike console JRPG's are much of a thing anymore with most moving to mobile and remaining on handhelds
 
While I don't disagree with the sentiment, I feel there are a few categories of failure.

Like Eidos' games are also failing, but that's because - despite their gigantic budgets - they come off as mid-tier titles in a THQ-esque way.

Though I guess we could boil it down to being in the mid-tier space in general. Their actual modern indie title (Life is Strange) was an astronomical success with around 1.5 million copies on Steam alone before the first episode went free. Lara Croft on the other hand had the issue of feeling like an older style indie title from the XBLA era, many of which aren't as popular anymore.


This is very true. I realize this distinction will sound incredibly stupid, but you basically want to be "Big Indie" in 2016 instead of mid-tier, and a lot of that comes down to things like business models and pricing (along with some stylistic choices).
It's a hard compromise and one that I unfortunately think can't be met by most. You want to appease to those fans give them that feeling of some old franchise or those fun lil smaller games back in the ps2 days and back but the budget isn't big enough to even do that. Take star ocean for example you can clearly see where budget affected the development of that game to many corners cut. I'd argue same was with recore,i am setsuna so on. Only one I feel that really hit it pretty well and even than I was left with the feeling of "damn I wish this had a bigger budget I'd like to see more"
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
It's strange though, Bravely Default was a moderate success and they managed to complete squander than. Granted the game didn't leave the best of impressions overally, but I feel an expanded sequel with much more effort put in and good word of mouth could have done quite well
I think the first game managed to modernize a classic formula very successfully (see similar successes with games like XCOM 2012 and Divinity: Originsl Sin) instead of just making a pure throwback title.

I do think they squandered their potential with the follow up by making an unexciting seeming sequel, but I also think that's one of the things big publishers tend to be bad at. If your product isn't viewed as a key title, it can often get ignored or not have the support it needs.

Final Fantasy XV will have no expense spared, but if another product is flagging or not living up to its potential, it's left to drown along with the brand.

Some places are getting better at this, but the big winners in smaller games actually tend to be mid-sized publishers like Devolver Digital, Paradox, or Starbreeze for whom these games are their flagship products.

It's a hard compromise and one that I unfortunately think can't be met by most. You want to appease to those fans give them that feeling of some old franchise or those fun lil smaller games back in the ps2 days and back but the budget isn't big enough to even do that. Take star ocean for example you can clearly see where budget affected the development of that game to many corners cut. I'd argue same was with recore,i am setsuna so on. Only one I feel that really hit it pretty well and even than I was left with the feeling of "damn I wish this had a bigger budget I'd like to see more"
Right. I think the real trick is trying to give them a game that evokes the feelings of yore, but in a way that still feels like a modern title so it attracts a modern audience as well (and thus can be budgeted high enough to work).

It's a very hard thing to design though and publishers generally don't feel great shoving $5 million into a Divinity game (hence why they were on Kickstarter) or $20 million into an XCOM (that number basically got greenlit due to Civ 5's insane success).
 

Aters

Member
Wada was right about one thing: it's better to remake old games than develop new mid-tier games. Even the GAF-favorite The World Ends with You only made it to about 500k worldwide, and it had huge install base, great word of mouth, favorable review scores, and a big name director behind it. I cannot understand why they would muster the resource to make something like WoFF instead of properly remaking FFV and FFVI on 3DS. I'd buy those remakes in a heartbeat.
 

MacTag

Banned
Wada was right about one thing: it's better to remake old games than develop new mid-tier games. Even the GAF-favorite The World Ends with You only made it to about 500k worldwide, and it had huge install base, great word of mouth, favorable review scores, and a big name director behind it. I cannot understand why they would muster the resource to make something like WoFF instead of properly remaking FFV and FFVI on 3DS. I'd buy those remakes in a heartbeat.
The production line for the FFIII/IV remakes shifted to 4 Heroes of Light -> Bravely Default -> Bravely Second. Which were pretty successful too although I can see an argument that perhaps they should've kept the remakes going alongside new games. Imagining FFV in the 4HOL engine or FFVI in the BD engine...
 

Oregano

Member
The production line for the FFIII/IV remakes shifted to 4 Heroes of Light -> Bravely Default -> Bravely Second. Which were pretty successful too although I can see an argument that perhaps they should've kept the remakes going alongside new games. Imagining FFV in the 4HOL engine or FFVI in the BD engine...

That's not completely accurate. Tokita and Matrix shifted focus to mobile and they did do a full 3D remake of FFIV: The After Years. Asano had to find a new developer for Bravely Default.

Also we have had a FFVI remake rumoured recently. Wonder if it's actually happening.
 
World of Final Fantasy's struggles seem irrelevant to Square Enix as a whole though (beyond adding another piece of evidence to the pile that Matsuda's plan to release non-Dragon Quest mid-tier games is probably a bad one and that Wada had it right), while Berserk continues to raise a strong identity crisis for Koei Tecmo if the Musiu brand is really dying. However, there's a reason most companies don't normally rely so heavily on one brand, because this can happen.

It really pains me to see all these titles selling like this, because I was one of the people who was genuinely hyped when he announced plans to bring back this mid-tier of franchises.

The thing is, even then I knew that they weren't going to be selling like they used to and that's why I don't quite understand the strategy that's at plan here.

I feel with Square Enix we've seen multiple times now these franchise revivals or mid-tier games that aren't given suitable budgets. Or maybe it's just that the budget is being spent in the wrong places. Like Star Ocean 5 pulling it back to one planet and being a relatively short game, even if I though the production values were fine. Bravely Second having to re-use a load of content from the first game. And I feel the next casualty will be SaGa Scarlet Grace.

Like, this games all look fine, impressive in places (I thought SO5 was graphically decent) and then you get feedback that they're short or missing expected content or recycle a load of stuff.

And I don't get it. Either just make a mid-tier game with a mid-tier budget spent in the right places and expect mid-tier sales from it, or go all out with it and hope it succeeds, like they do with Eidos. Their Japanese output is in this weird middle ground where it's not one but it's not the other and it ends up being a load of ehh.

Obviously WoFF doesn't quite fit in with this, since production values on that seem higher than usual.
 
Ōkami;221204148 said:
Check a few pages back

Thanks ! Looks like they were not commented although they give us a better view about what japanese bought with the PS VR. As expected, Summer Lesson is on top, and Rez Infinite just behind is really cool. It's hilarious to see the Kitchen demo here, even though they asked 100 yen for this, it was likely just a safety measure for the CERO (the demo is free everywhere else). Still, that's 3 VR software on top, and 9 overall. Those Idolmaster and Hatsune Miku cheering games were not so hot. Until Dawn Rush of Blood should really be higher, but the word of mouth about such a game can't spread so easy in Japan.

Poor Lara though, how come Tomb Raider be so low when a lot of other western IP are growing nicely for some years : /

01/NEW. KITCHEN [PlayStation VR] (Capcom) – {13/10/2016} (¥100)
02/NEW. Summer Lesson [PlayStation VR] (Bandai Namco) – {13/10/2016} (¥2.980)
03/NEW. Rez Infinite (SEGA) – {13/10/2016} (¥3.400)
04/06. Grand Theft Auto V (Take Two Interactive Japan) – {11/12/2014} (¥5.394)
05/NEW. PlayStation VR Worlds [PlayStation VR] (SIE) – {13/10/2016} (¥5.292)
06/07. Blazblue: Central Fiction (Arc System Works) – {06/10/2016} (¥6.264)
07/NEW. The Idolm@ster: Viewing Revolution [PlayStation VR] (Bandai Namco) – {13/10/2016} (¥2.480)
08/20. Final Fantasy X/X-2 HD Remaster (Square Enix) – {14/05/2015} (¥4.936)
09/05. Minecraft: PlayStation 4 Edition (SCE) – {25/12/2014} (¥2.592)
10/NEW. Batman: Arkham VR [PlayStation VR] (Warner Interactive Japan) – {13/10/2016} (¥2.678)
11/NEW. Until Dawn: Rush of Blood [PlayStation VR] (SIE) – {13/10/2016} (¥2.160)
12/00. Persona 5 (Atlus) – {15/09/2016} (¥8.800)
13/NEW. Hatsune Miku: Future Live – All Stage Pack [PlayStation VR] (SEGA) – {13/10/2016} (¥7.560)
14/NEW. Rise of the Tomb Raider (Square Enix) – {13/10/2016} (¥6.264)
15/14. Resident Evil 6 (Capcom) – {29/03/2016} (¥2.800)
16/15. Salt and Sanctuary (Ska Studios) – {18/08/2016} (¥1.780)
17/01. FIFA 17 (Electronic Arts) – {29/09/2016} (¥8.424)
18/NEW. RIGS: Machine Combat League [PlayStation VR] (SIE) – {13/10/2016} (¥7.452)
19/13. Tales of Berseria (Bandai Namco) – {18/08/2016} (¥6.600)
20/NEW. Layers of Fear: Masterpiece Edition (Intergrow) – {13/10/2016} (¥3.000)
 

MacTag

Banned
That's not completely accurate. Tokita and Matrix shifted focus to mobile and they did do a full 3D remake of FFIV: The After Years. Asano had to find a new developer for Bravely Default.

Also we have had a FFVI remake rumoured recently. Wonder if it's actually happening.
The director and developer changed with the hardware shift but the producer (Asano) and production line arguably didn't. Bravely Default did supposedly start life as Final Fantasy Gaiden II after all.
 
On that note what's the reception to Switch been like on the Japan side of things?
I'm 50/50 on whether it will be more positive or negative

I'd like to know this too, and I'm surprised we haven't heard anything about Japan's reaction to the reveal. Anyone?
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
It depends if third parties are actually confident in Switch's success and whether it can serve whatever specific demographic the developer is aiming for.

I've seen quite a few people point out that Spike Chunsoft and From Software are on Nintendo's partner list but Spike Chunsoft developers first party games for Nintendo(Streetpass stuff and Pokémon Mystery Dungeon) and From Software develops the Monster Hunter Diary games. It might(/probably does) not mean Danganronpa and Dark Souls are Switch-bound.

On that note what's the reception to Switch been like on the Japan side of things?
I'm 50/50 on whether it will be more positive or negative

It should be more positive, this is the market Nintendo sold 20+ million 3DS' to, if not Nintendo's in some real trouble.
 

Takao

Banned
On that note, we have any prelim on XenoVerse 2? Feels like that completely snuck out under my nose and I've heard very little about it.

Xenoverse 2 is a bizarre product for today's marketplace. It looks and feels very much like an expansion of the first game, rather than a full sequel that ditched last gen. But I guess Bandai only makes as many licensed games as they do because they're conservative with their budgets.
 

Aters

Member
Wait, you mean Wada wasn't the complete idiot people made him out to be?

I am completely shocked.

I mean he did pull the trigger to make a new FFXIV. SE also acquired Eidos under his management. And I'd say separating SE's properties from the Playstation brand was a good move too. Lastly, quite a few good games (and manga series) came out at that time period. From a pure financial standpoint, the company was making big money for quite some time, and he did expend the production line and the target group of SE.

There was a time when every new SE announcement was a mobile title, added to the fact that his fabulous crystal nova grand scheme didn't work out, that's when people started to hate him.
 

Oregano

Member
It should be more positive, this is the market Nintendo sold 20+ million 3DS' to, if not Nintendo's in some real trouble.

You'd hope but the size might not go down very well.

I mean he did pull the trigger to make a new FFXIV. SE also acquired Eidos under his management. And I'd say separating SE's properties from the Playstation brand was a good move too. Lastly, quite a few good games (and manga series) came out at that time period. From a pure financial standpoint, the company was making big money for quite some time, and he did expend the production line and the target group of SE.

There was a time when every new SE announcement was a mobile title, added to the fact that his fabulous crystal nova grand scheme didn't work out, that's when people started to hate him.

Yup, exactly what I mean. He did a lot of good. It's probably worth mentioning that DQIX was the most successful game in the franchise(and most successful third party game ever in Japan until MHP3rd a few months later).
 
S-E had a very sucessfull 2010-FY with FFXIII and DQIX (their revenues were declining year after year since 2007), after that it cratered. FFXIV 1.0 wasn't ready, but Wada really wanted two mainline FF on the same year, and look how wonderful things worked out. And after Deus Ex: Human Revolution every single western developed product became a financial failure because those never shipped enough copies (and in the end Hitman, TR became bigger than ever before).

Wada's ambition of world domination (let's become one of the TOP 5 publishers in the industry, yay!!) was something they couldn't really handle, or maybe it was possible, but not under his guidance. He was a man of vision, no doubt about it, and perhaps S-E's current success in mobile gaming should be credited in parts to him, since they were developing titles for phones before they became a behemoth. And of course Eidos was a very key and important addition.

But, since Matsuda became CEO they don't know what it means to lose money anymore and they easily surpassed Wada's best year without needing a mainline FF or DQ. He might be doing something right, even though I'm unsure if Eidos is happy since I feel they will need to ressurect all their series again.

And personally speaking I'm much more satisfied with their current line-up, even if some already mentioned games deserved more budget (or maybe SO5's problem is that tri-Ace can't produce like before). At least now I can look forward to a bunch of stuff, being those AAA, mid-sided or small instead of just the next Lightning game and a DQ spin-off/remake for 3DS that won't be localized and has no worlwide appeal - something I believe is a bit important. (and, btw, no DQ spin-off stopped them losing money during XIV's demise era).
 

Vena

Member
Ōkami;221205036 said:
It's a product made for the west though, there isn't much buzz for it in Japan.

Ya I was indirectly asking about the west in a lot of ways, hehe.

Xenoverse 2 is a bizarre product for today's marketplace. It looks and feels very much like an expansion of the first game, rather than a full sequel that ditched last gen. But I guess Bandai only makes as many licensed games as they do because they're conservative with their budgets.

I just feel like I've heard very little on the title in any market, though I admittedly don't recall if there was much of, if any, build up to the original and its smashing success.
 

Oregano

Member
Right but as Matsuda himself admitted we're only just starting to see the effects of his leadership decisions. FFXIV was an unprecedented failure but A Realm Reborn was under Wada and Dragon Quest X was under Wada.

We'll also see how long Matsuda's midtier plan goes considering they're all bombs, Bravely Default is the only success and that was under Wada too.
 
Right but as Matsuda himself admitted we're only just starting to see the effects of his leadership decisions. FFXIV was an unprecedented failure but A Realm Reborn was under Wada and Dragon Quest X was under Wada.

We'll also see how long Matsuda's midtier plan goes considering they're all bombs, Bravely Default is the only success and that was under Wada too.

I doubt it's gonna really work. It's not like what's left of the dedicated japanese market is begging for those titles or the west will become a saviour in terms of sales (wait... I forgot digital copies are the real saviour :v). Unless there is some luck involved (like right game at the right time) or one of these productions appealing for a decently sized base of fans (for new products I'd say FF Musou could do well, but look: well known and established series) I can't really see much room for sucess unfortunately.

It's good to see them trying though and as I said before, on a personal level I'm happier now when compared to 2010-2013, but I don't believe we'll see a truly succesful ressurgence of classic mid-tier series on dedicated consoles/handhelds. As for Tokyo RPG Factory, it might sound a lovely idea but it's curious (and perhaps telling) to see how S-E handled their debut game after a surprising E3 reveal.

Mobile seems to be a much safer way to try that. It'll be very interesting to see how Star Ocean: Anamnesis will perform for example.
 

Oregano

Member
I doubt it's gonna really work. It's not like what's left of the dedicated japanese market is begging for those titles or the west will become a saviour in terms of sales (wait... I forgot digital copies are the real saviour :v). Unless there is some luck involved (like right game at the right time) or one of these procutions appealing for a decently sized base of fans (for new products I'd say FF Musou could do well, but look: well known and established series) I can't really see much room for sucess unfortunately.

It's good to see them trying though and as I said before, on a personal level I'm happier now when compared to 2010-2013, but I don't believe we'll see a truly succesful ressurgence of classic mid-tier series on dedicated consoles/handhelds.

Mobile seems to be a much safer way to try that. It'll be very interesting to see how Star Ocean: Anamnesis will perform for example.

Pfftt you totally forgot the rest of Asia too, and Steam(I Am Setsuna has sold a whole ~25K there)!
 
Pfftt you totally forgot the rest of Asia too, and Steam(I Am Setsuna has sold a whole ~25K there)!

Hahahaha, I'd love to see the Asian dedicated market becoming something super big where most JP games would find sucess. But yeah, unless you are an already big name it's not gonna work wonders (and even then a title like DQ Heroes did 200k, still far from the 800K achieved in Japan).
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
It really pains me to see all these titles selling like this, because I was one of the people who was genuinely hyped when he announced plans to bring back this mid-tier of franchises.

The thing is, even then I knew that they weren't going to be selling like they used to and that's why I don't quite understand the strategy that's at plan here.

I feel with Square Enix we've seen multiple times now these franchise revivals or mid-tier games that aren't given suitable budgets. Or maybe it's just that the budget is being spent in the wrong places. Like Star Ocean 5 pulling it back to one planet and being a relatively short game, even if I though the production values were fine. Bravely Second having to re-use a load of content from the first game. And I feel the next casualty will be SaGa Scarlet Grace.

Like, this games all look fine, impressive in places (I thought SO5 was graphically decent) and then you get feedback that they're short or missing expected content or recycle a load of stuff.

And I don't get it. Either just make a mid-tier game with a mid-tier budget spent in the right places and expect mid-tier sales from it, or go all out with it and hope it succeeds, like they do with Eidos. Their Japanese output is in this weird middle ground where it's not one but it's not the other and it ends up being a load of ehh.

Obviously WoFF doesn't quite fit in with this, since production values on that seem higher than usual.

S-E had a very sucessfull 2010-FY with FFXIII and DQIX (their revenues were declining year after year since 2007), after that it cratered. FFXIV 1.0 wasn't ready, but Wada really wanted two mainline FF on the same year, and look how wonderful things worked out. And after Deus Ex: Human Revolution every single western developed product became a financial failure because those never shipped enough copies (and in the end Hitman, TR became bigger than ever before).

Wada's ambition of world domination (let's become one of the TOP 5 publishers in the industry, yay!!) was something they couldn't really handle, or maybe it was possible, but not under his guidance. He was a man of vision, no doubt about it, and perhaps S-E's current success in mobile gaming should be credited in parts to him, since they were developing titles for phones before they became a behemoth. And of course Eidos was a very key and important addition.

But, since Matsuda became CEO they don't know what it means to lose money anymore and they easily surpassed Wada's best year without needing a mainline FF or DQ. He might be doing something right, even though I'm unsure if Eidos is happy since I feel they will need to ressurect all their series again.

And personally speaking I'm much more satisfied with their current line-up, even if some already mentioned games deserved more budget (or maybe SO5's problem is that tri-Ace can't produce like before). At least now I can look forward to a bunch of stuff, being those AAA, mid-sided or small instead of just the next Lightning game and a DQ spin-off/remake for 3DS that won't be localized and has no worlwide appeal - something I believe is a bit important. (and, btw, no DQ spin-off stopped them losing money during XIV's demise era).
I feel the crux of the issue is that (and this applies to both CEOs) Square Enix is having a very hard time coming to terms with the fact that what defined them for 20+ years (high end singleplayer console games with a side business in handheld) is not what defines them today (f2p mobile games with a side business in MMOs).

Wada's approach was to basically cut out the mid-tier and try to make a fairly large number of swings at being relevant in AAA again.

Matsuda's approach is to greenlight a bunch of games in the franchises they used to make, but give almost all of them notably conservative budgets so that if they sell poorly, they don't eat too much into Square Enix's major profits from mobile and MMOs.

Matsuda's approach is certainly the one that does a much better job ensuring Square Enix's profitability, but it also hamstrings them significantly in terms of ever actually getting their dedicated device division back on track on in terms of prominence and profitability instead of just presence and revenue.

You can see this shining through in Final Fantasy XV the most. Both CEOs were totally dedicated to making sure that project had whatever it needed, because both really, really, really wanted to see it succeed. There's constant marketing and fan communication and feedback opportunities and demos and promotion in every way possible. They even swapped out the senior staff team when they felt Nomura was never going to get it into a shippable state. One interpretation of this would be that the project cost a ton of money, so they *really* want to make that back, but I think that's actually a very small factor overall. Final Fantasy XV's actual mission is to prove that Square Enix Japan can actually make a AAA console game that's relevant in 2016, because if they can't, what on earth are they even doing trying anymore?

Compounding this issue, it doesn't help that they have so much staff that's trained to make dedicated games instead of what they're currently good at. Since Japan is pretty averse to layoffs, they need to employ them to do something, which has resulted in this flood of mid-tier titles (or in the Wada era, the collection of canceled and failed attempts at notable console games), trying to get premium games to work on mobile, and bragging to high heaven whenever any of their teams full of traditional staff manages to make a successful mobile or online hit. The newest incarnation of this is their push into Japanese eSports. They even have a new mobile MOBA by second highest staff member on Lightning Returns (who was also the lead battle designer for FFXIII and FFXIII-2, the most praised element of those games).

I'm curious to see what their next wave of titles looks like. A lot of the games Matsuda greenlit when he became CEO have released (or are doing so shortly), so when those teams announce their next games, we can get a sense of how he's responding to the issues they've seen.
 

Aters

Member
Pfftt you totally forgot the rest of Asia too, and Steam(I Am Setsuna has sold a whole ~25K there)!

Another thing I have to give credit to Wada. Never thought I'd play an official Final Fantasy game in Chinese but FFXIII came along. Now they localize games in Asia even faster than in the west sometimes. It's a weird feeling when I have DQH2 in my hand with my native language when the biggest videogame market is still waiting for a confirmation of localization. Just a bit more incentive to buy their products.

Also props to Sega and Bamco. You may be joking about the Asian market right now, but a lot of Japanese publishers see the potential. At least Sega straight out said China is the second biggest market for Yakuza, which is way Yakuza 6 is a simultaneous release.
 

Oregano

Member
Hahahaha, I'd love to see the Asian dedicated market becoming something super big where most JP games would find sucess. But yeah, unless you are an already big name it's not gonna work wonders (and even then a title like DQ Heroes did 200k, still far from the 800K achieved in Japan).

Another thing I have to give credit to Matsuda. Never thought I'd play an official Final Fantasy game in Chinese but FFXIII came along. Now they localize games in Asia even faster than in the west sometimes. It's a weird feeling when I have DQH2 in my hand with my native language when the biggest videogame market is still waiting for a confirmation of localization. Just a bit more incentive to buy their products.

Also props to Sega and Bamco. You may be joking about the Asian market right now, but a lot of Japanese publishers see the potential. At least Sega straight out said China is the second biggest market for Yakuza, which is way Yakuza 6 is a simultaneous release.

It's obviously a growth market that shouldn't be ignored and it's good to see The Pokémon Company looking that way too but like below...

There was a time when I thought Setsuna would sell pretty good on Steam.

And then SE decided to release it for $40.

Steam is a good additional revenue source but it's not going to be the crutch people think it will be, especially when you have to slash your price just to gain traction.
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
I feel the crux of the issue is that (and this applies to both CEOs) Square Enix is having a very hard time coming to terms with the fact that what defined them for 20+ years (high end singleplayer console games with a side business in handheld) is not what defines them today (f2p mobile games with a side business in MMOs).

Wada's approach was to basically cut out the mid-tier and try to make a fairly large number of swings at being relevant in AAA again.

Matsuda's approach is to greenlight a bunch of games in the franchises they used to make, but give almost all of them notably conservative budgets so that if they sell poorly, they don't eat too much into Square Enix's major profits from mobile and MMOs.

Matsuda's approach is certainly the one that does a much better job ensuring Square Enix's profitability, but it also hamstrings them significantly in terms of ever actually getting their dedicated device division back on track on in terms of prominence and profitability instead of just presence and revenue.

You can see this shining through in Final Fantasy XV the most. Both CEOs were totally dedicated to making sure that project had whatever it needed, because both really, really, really wanted to see it succeed. There's constant marketing and fan communication and feedback opportunities and demos and promotion in every way possible. They even swapped out the senior staff team when they felt Nomura was never going to get it into a shippable state. One interpretation of this would be that the project cost a ton of money, so they *really* want to make that back, but I think that's actually a very small factor overall. Final Fantasy XV's actual mission is to prove that Square Enix Japan can actually make a AAA console game that's relevant in 2016, because if they can't, what on earth are they even doing trying anymore?

Compounding this issue, it doesn't help that they have so much staff that's trained to make dedicated games instead of what they're currently good at. Since Japan is pretty averse to layoffs, they need to employ them to do something, which has resulted in this flood of mid-tier titles (or in the Wada era, the collection of canceled and failed attempts at notable console games), trying to get premium games to work on mobile, and bragging to high heaven whenever any of their teams full of traditional staff manages to make a successful mobile or online hit. The newest incarnation of this is their push into Japanese eSports. They even have a new mobile MOBA by second highest staff member on Lightning Returns (who was also the lead battle designer for FFXIII and FFXIII-2, the most praised element of those games).

I'm curious to see what their next wave of titles looks like. A lot of the games Matsuda greenlit when he became CEO have released (or are doing so shortly), so when those teams announce their next games, we can get a sense of how he's responding to the issues they've seen.
I feel if thy were going to try this mid tier push they should have consoldated their efforts to 2 maybe 3 at most fully fleshed out games on platforms that still seem to these games well. Highly profitable mid tiers on consoles even in Japan seem to be starting to go the way of the dodo, and the lack of is even more notable there. The handheld market should have been where they focused that energy on.

RPG's are the 3DS and Vita's lifeblood, a "high budget" which would still be next to nothing in console terms would stand a decent chance at getting 1-2 million LTD. FE an utterly medicore series before this generation managed to do it and grow with it's sequel, BD had its budget kneecaped and did not. Low budget entries fired in a shatter shot will work well in a mobile space but not in a handheld or console space. The budget didn't need to be super high but up to par. There's a reason why BD was the only game to suceed in this approach.
 
Paper Floppio

Hopefully EU and NA reject the game so Nintendo get the hint and go back to being a proper RPG series. Switch looks to be a ton of remasters/enhanced ports so far so fingers crossed for TTYD HD.
yea right Paper Mario gonna die like Metroid and Star Fox
 
I feel the crux of the issue is that (and this applies to both CEOs) Square Enix is having a very hard time coming to terms with the fact that what defined them for 20+ years (high end singleplayer console games with a side business in handheld) is not what defines them today (f2p mobile games with a side business in MMOs).

Wada's approach was to basically cut out the mid-tier and try to make a fairly large number of swings at being relevant in AAA again.

Matsuda's approach is to greenlight a bunch of games in the franchises they used to make, but give almost all of them notably conservative budgets so that if they sell poorly, they don't eat too much into Square Enix's major profits from mobile and MMOs.

Matsuda's approach is certainly the one that does a much better job ensuring Square Enix's profitability, but it also hamstrings them significantly in terms of ever actually getting their dedicated device division back on track on in terms of prominence and profitability instead of just presence and revenue.

You can see this shining through in Final Fantasy XV the most. Both CEOs were totally dedicated to making sure that project had whatever it needed, because both really, really, really wanted to see it succeed. There's constant marketing and fan communication and feedback opportunities and demos and promotion in every way possible. They even swapped out the senior staff team when they felt Nomura was never going to get it into a shippable state. One interpretation of this would be that the project cost a ton of money, so they *really* want to make that back, but I think that's actually a very small factor overall. Final Fantasy XV's actual mission is to prove that Square Enix Japan can actually make a AAA console game that's relevant in 2016, because if they can't, what on earth are they even doing trying anymore?

Compounding this issue, it doesn't help that they have so much staff that's trained to make dedicated games instead of what they're currently good at. Since Japan is pretty averse to layoffs, they need to employ them to do something, which has resulted in this flood of mid-tier titles (or in the Wada era, the collection of canceled and failed attempts at notable console games), trying to get premium games to work on mobile, and bragging to high heaven whenever any of their teams full of traditional staff manages to make a successful mobile or online hit. The newest incarnation of this is their push into Japanese eSports. They even have a new mobile MOBA by second highest staff member on Lightning Returns (who was also the lead battle designer for FFXIII and FFXIII-2, the most praised element of those games).

I'm curious to see what their next wave of titles looks like. A lot of the games Matsuda greenlit when he became CEO have released (or are doing so shortly), so when those teams announce their next games, we can get a sense of how he's responding to the issues they've seen.

I also think both CEO's share the idea of making S-E being relevant in the AAA-space again (Matsuda of course giving Japan a bigger amount of projects, with XV at the center of it - and just like you said it needs to succeed and prove they can still compete). But, if we look at what people were saying about Eidos recently released projects, it feels Wada liked to spend a lot more on marketing and letting people know/talk about those games. We may say Deus Ex's sequel came out late, but there was lot of folks here on Gaf saying they didn't know it was already out (and look -> this is usually the people that is reading news and stuff). Perhaps the big focus on XV impacted on it, but, hell... Deus Ex should also mean a lot for S-E nowadays.

For the handheld/console/MMO discussion I don't think S-E is wrong in keep trying to develop big high-end single-player games, especially in Japan. There's still a viable market for those as we've seen and they keep increasing revenue year after year in the dedicated space. It's clear to see that titles like XV, DQXI, VII Remake are the ones we see people talking about and are *usually* most excited for, since they've got the whole potential and appeal that products like XIV and DQXI can't quite reach (they do generate great revenue and were well received, but as Wada said before: it works like a stable base of earnings for their big productions, since they take more time to be released). And handelhd games are going multiplat with smarphones, something that was expected to happen.

It's just unfortunate Japan's dedicated market became what it is today, and we are actually unsure if Switch will be able to change things for the better. I hope it does, but not close to DS level of greatness in any case. Now speaking about the futre of projects: let's not forget about Matsuda's ****brilliant**** "Law of 3 titles" :D
 

wrowa

Member
Steam is a good additional revenue source but it's not going to be the crutch people think it will be, especially when you have to slash your price just to gain traction.

Setsuna is overpriced on PS4 as well, though. You can't sell a digital-only game that looks like an iPhone game for $40 in the West.
 
Setsuna is overpriced on PS4 as well, though. You can't sell a digital-only game that looks like an iPhone game for $40 in the West.

Curious to see how it'll do on both PS4/Steam when S-E finally decides to make a sale. Reception was quite positive but if they were expecting a BD replacement of sorts it completely failed :(
 

Aters

Member
It's obviously a growth market that shouldn't be ignored and it's good to see The Pokémon Company looking that way too but like below...

Not quite the same I think. DQH sold 200k in Asia, that's a big number for a mid-tier title. It sold like 5k on Steam? Another example I can think of is Trails of series. Despite the good word of mouth, TitS SC did piss poor on Steam, but it did well enough in China for Falcom to overcome all the license hell (whatever it actually is) to bring the EVO version to China.

The twist with Chinese game market is that console gamers are the real "hardcore" gamers there - opposite to the west. You can easily find a college student in China with a gaming laptop far more expensive than PS4 but he probably only plays LoL on it. The console gamers, on the other hand, grow up with Japanese games and mid-tier titles. New console gamers will find themselves in a environment that people are equally excited about Yakuza 6 and the next CoD, which in return shapes their preference of videogames.
 

Ōkami

Member
  1. [PS4] Battlefield 1 - 262
  2. [3DS] Mario Party: Star Rush - 62
  3. [3DS] Monster Hunter Stories - 41
  4. [PSV] Macross Delta Scramble (RunPika Sound Edition) - 26
  5. [WIU] Paper Mario: Color Splash - 14
  6. [PS4] NBA 2K17 - 14
  7. [PSV] Reco Love: Gold Beach - 12
  8. [3DS] Yo-Kai Watch 3: Sushi - 11
  9. [PSV] Reco Love: Blue Ocean - 10
  10. [PSV] Macross Delta Scramble - 10
  11. [PS4] Rise of the Tomb Raider - 10
  12. [PSV] Minecraft: PlayStation Vita Edition - 9
  13. [PS4] Persona 5 - 8
  14. [PS3] NBA 2K17 - 8
  15. [3DS] Super Battle For Money Sentouchuu: Kyuukyoku no Shinobu to Battle Player Choujou Kessen! - 8
  16. [WIU] Minecraft: Wii U Edition - 7
  17. [PS4] FIFA 17 - 7
  18. [PSV] Idol Death Game TV - 6
  19. [3DS] Pokemon Alpha Sapphire - 6
  20. [PSV] Kangokutou Mary-Skelter - 5
Reco Love is a NSFW search.

Preorders
[3DS] Pokémon Sun / Moon - 1261
[PS4] Final Fantasy XV - 290
[PSV] Sword Art Online: Hollow Realisation - 127
[PS4] Sword Art Online: Hollow Realisation - 86
[PS4] Yakuza 6 - 71
[PSV] SD Gundam G Generation Genesis - 60
[PS4] SD Gundam G Generation Genesis - 58
[PS4] Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare - 58
[PSV] World of Final Fantasy - 35
[PS4] Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2 - 34
[PS4] Berserk Musou (Skull Knight sold separately) - 24
 
edit: Nvm, beaten.

Looks like Macross Delta Scramble did indeed bomb, and Reco Love is no PhotoKano. Didn't have any expectations for Idol Death Game TV thankfully.
 
There is an extent to which I feel Square Enix's recent mid-tier line-up was built to please their old fan base only to find that there aren't many of them left who still care or want games like that.

By comparison, Dragon Quest Builders is a title that mixes Square Enix's strengths with a very modern and currently popular genre, and that actually succeeded in a big way.

Which games? I don't think WoFF is solely aimed at their older base. Yes it has big appeal to them due to the references but the chibi art style, narrative and overall presentation tells me this is like a "my first FF": an entry into the FF universe for a younger audience.

When I think of SE trying to please their old fanbase I think of FF7R.
 

Hellraider

Member
Paper Floppio

Hopefully EU and NA reject the game so Nintendo get the hint and go back to being a proper RPG series. Switch looks to be a ton of remasters/enhanced ports so far so fingers crossed for TTYD HD.
yea right Paper Mario gonna die like Metroid and Star Fox

Paper Mario isn't going to die. Color Splash will get its 3ds and/or Switch port and it will sell as much as it needed to. I doubt they're changing the formula back anytime soon, though.
 

Oregano

Member
Not quite the same I think. DQH sold 200k in Asia, that's a big number for a mid-tier title. It sold like 5k on Steam? Another example I can think of is Trails of series. Despite the good word of mouth, TitS SC did piss poor on Steam, but it did well enough in China for Falcom to overcome all the license hell (whatever it actually is) to bring the EVO version to China.

The twist with Chinese game market is that console gamers are the real "hardcore" gamers there - opposite to the west. You can easily find a college student in China with a gaming laptop far more expensive than PS4 but he probably only plays LoL on it. The console gamers, on the other hand, grow up with Japanese games and mid-tier titles. New console gamers will find themselves in a environment that people are equally excited about Yakuza 6 and the next CoD, which in return shapes their preference of videogames.

Fair enough, I'd still consider that secondary sales though. I think it will be a long time before we see games made with that market in mind to the same extent we see developers aiming at the west.

Which games? I don't think WoFF is solely aimed at their older base. Yes it has big appeal to them due to the references but the chibi art style, narrative and overall presentation tells me this is like a "my first FF": an entry into the FF universe for a younger audience.

When I think of SE trying to please their old fanbase I think of FF7R.

I think Nirolak addressed that one separately as a confusing product with no clear audience.
 

Square2015

Member
Comgnet historical reservation (where data available)
5 weeks out:
Code:
FF15     290 +9

FF12     1,291 +96
FF13     b/w 698-1,278 (circa 1,000) 
FF13-2   >219
FF13LR   165 +27
FF10HD   63 +11?
Only +9 again this week, should be ramping up this close to release.
 

Oregano

Member
Comgnet historical reservation (where data available)
5 weeks out:
Code:
FF15     290 +9

FF12     1,291 +96
FF13     b/w 698-1,278 (circa 1,000) 
FF13-2   >219
FF13LR   165 +27
FF10HD   63 +11?
Only +9 again this week, should be ramping up this close to release.

The realitvely late delay probably means it won't be picking up as many preorders now.
 
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