Mass_Pincup
Banned
Why?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Merkel open to have a shared Eurozone Budget
- Thread starter Xando
- Start date
Why?
Muffin1611
Banned
In contrast to the EU the UK has done something so monumentally one-sided stupid and still blames the EU if their decision goes south, which it inevitably will. After years of the UK demanding things and then leaving anyway, you'll have to excuse me that I don't really hold it against these posters.
On the other side we have a guy in a thread about a shared EU budget which will help countries in trouble calling it "disgusting".
I hope you see the difference.
Don't worry it's not going to happen.
For what ever it is worth pretty safe to say the NHS was fucked regardless of the brexit outcome, the British people need to elect a government that actually genuinely supports the NHS, instead of one that says they do, but then seem to do their best to actively sabotage it, the outcome of brexit only expedited the process and provided better cover to keep fucking the NHS.
Not that any of this will stop UK trash papers blaming the EU for it all.
Also should be pointed out that while it is fine to consider the people in the UK that are getting screwed by Brexit, especially in the realm of healthcare, one should also not forget that the British people didn't just fuck themselves, they fucked the rest of Europe too, after all a worse economy doesn't tend to lead to improved health care, and unlike the British people the rest of the people living in the EU didn't get a vote on the matter.
So it isn't all that incomprehensible why people outside of the UK might be less than sympathetic to the plight of the British people, which is probably also why people tend to be more favorable to the Scottish people despite them also being part of the UK.
Not that I think the general view towards Brexit is anything but negative, its an all around shit sandwich for everyone involved.
GeordieMark
Member
You missed the point completely. Criticism is fair enough. You called out an anti-EU shit-post but seem to be cool with drive-bys when the shoe is on the other foot. That's why it is hypocritical.
Hopefully you see the difference.
PJV3
Member
It's weird seeing such a strong reaction against cooperation.
If Germany and France are behind it, I wouldn't just ignore it. It's been always the Germans that were against this kind of thing. If they actively push for it, I am not sure who would be really against it. They would pay for most of it, in absolute numbers.
Napalm_Frank
Member
The thing is Germany is also the one who profits most from being in the eurozone so it's not that big of a deal for them to push for eurozone federalization by being the one who has to foot the biggest bill if it means that countries are less likely to leave in the future.
That's the line of thinking in germany.
People don't want to pay but realize eurozone blowing up will cost even more.
So you're judging the British by what you read in their papers (which are mostly garbage and most people in the UK hate too), and also reading less good stuff in your papers which in turn is making you say then 'fuck 'em' (the British) but end your statement by saying you hope people prove to be better...
When people globally are so easily influenced by what they read in these rags worldwide, people will keep living up to your own low expectations.
I'm guessing you aren't familiar with a TCRS post on the EU
That's basically all he/she ever does
What? It's pretty hard to not manage a monetary union between incredibly diverse economies without financial transfers (what the Eu's been trying to do for years). This is very much reasonable. The Euro increases the asymmetries between countries, and a common budget is one of several policies that can counterweight these effects.
UpDownLeftRight
Banned
Perhaps I'm just too optimistic But I'd like to believe at least a number of Europeans are aware that the other 50% aren't like that. I'd even have to wonder how much of the leavers truly believe that and rather are fools misled by our frankly awful media which is an absolute fucking travesty at this point.
You're not wrong for sure, we in the UK are seemingly dedicated to voting against our own interests. Take the upcoming election for instance. I can totally understand the EU being pissed at us for dragging them into a shit storm they didn't need. Hell, I'll be the first to say the British are fucking dumb for voting the way they did. But at the same time when asking leave voters why they opted to leave, it sounds more like I'm listening to someone who's been victimised by the media and government and slightly misguided rather than anyone with true malice for the EU.
I dunno, it's hard because I don't want to sound like I'm trying to blame shift it off the British public, they are at fault. But the ones who truly have a vendetta against the EU are our media and government. Yet at the same time it IS the fault of the public for not using their own heads rather than taking everything as it's said. Everything about the situation is fucked. I just hate that it's going to be those who already don't have it great who will feel the burden and seeing people act like they deserve it.
It's fucking weird to be honest. It doesn't even feel like I live in the same world I grew up in at times. Perhaps this is what it's always like but it's the first big political crisis of this size I've lived through and just nothing about it makes sense to me. I just don't want people to suffer needlessly.
GeordieMark
Member
Not really, but again, I'm not defending that post at all. Its just that it was the post singled out as a drive-by shit-post when the very first post in this thread was equally shit, but happened to be a popular opinion around here so nobody bats an eyelid.
It seemed like the poster I replied to only takes issue with that kind of post when it is counter to their opinion.
The entire reason the Eurozone currently doesn't work right for poor countries is because they have very different fiscal needs than the ones that are stable and prosperous. This would be a giant step in the right direction to help fix the issues caused by the shared currency. (Much like how in the US, red states are net takers.)
Theonik
Member
I actually live in the UK but sure. What are you expecting the EU to do?
The UK has made their choice and while they might hate to see them go their ultimate responsibility is the good of the union.
Muffin1611
Banned
I don't disagree that they're equally shit, just that one of the two is better and more honestly motivated than the other. I can't blame people lashing out at the UK equally as people lashing out at the EU. There's a clear difference in context here. But you're free to call out these posts regardless, of course.
Germany did its homework when times were dire and +10% unemployment was standard. Keeping wages low and cutting social programs is what brought Germany back to competitiveness. and now others countries with similar issues don't want to go through hard reforms and are instead demanding money from more successful countries. what does the German tax payer owe them?
PJV3
Member
Perhaps it could be done in self interest by the Germans.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
I thought the EU was supposed to be about cooperation? If it's all on Germany then I guess they don't need the EU and they can follow the UK.
Weird how that's not at all what they want. Maybe they know how much they benefit economically in a strong EU.
Frankfurter
Member
Wages in Germany have been on the rise these past couple years btw. The only thing Germany right now should do is invest more. Roads, education, all that kind of stuff. Running a surplus right now isn't helping the EU/Eurozone, to say the least.
UpDownLeftRight
Banned
Again. I don't blame them for looking out for themselves. I'm not talking about the governing body but the populace. I'd just rather it be done without us apparently being an 'acceptable sacrifice'. Clearly the bridges need rebuilding not burning down even further. I guess the futures of millions was a fine price to pay? No, it never should be.
Camp Freddie
Member
It's probably necessary and in Germany's self-interest.
It's a bit like the Chinese policy of using their industrial surplus to try and 'uplift' poorer countries so that they'll have enough money to but Chinese stuff.
It's also necessary for the rich parts of a monetary union to subsidise the poor parts, else the rich/poor divide just gets worse.
What matters for any policy is how the funding is controlled. If it's just the EBD giving a big sack of cash to the Greek government and telling them to spend it wisely then it won't work. This is basically what caused the Greek crisis since the Greeks suddenly had access to cheap loaned money secured by the strength of the French/German economy. They spent it on short term gains, and on buying German goods instead of investing in the long-term benefit of the Greek economy.
If Germany or the ECB make access to the funds conditional on certain economic-reform objectives then it could work well - though this might be politically difficult since it would reinforce the narrative that Merkel holds the strings that control a Greek puppet government.
It's a bit like the Chinese policy of using their industrial surplus to try and 'uplift' poorer countries so that they'll have enough money to but Chinese stuff.
It's also necessary for the rich parts of a monetary union to subsidise the poor parts, else the rich/poor divide just gets worse.
What matters for any policy is how the funding is controlled. If it's just the EBD giving a big sack of cash to the Greek government and telling them to spend it wisely then it won't work. This is basically what caused the Greek crisis since the Greeks suddenly had access to cheap loaned money secured by the strength of the French/German economy. They spent it on short term gains, and on buying German goods instead of investing in the long-term benefit of the Greek economy.
If Germany or the ECB make access to the funds conditional on certain economic-reform objectives then it could work well - though this might be politically difficult since it would reinforce the narrative that Merkel holds the strings that control a Greek puppet government.
Orniletter
Banned
Precisely.
I'd go as far to say that your average german voter, not our Afd-deplorables, understands that our economy lives and dies by our exports (as our mainstream media really hammered that home at the height of the Greek crisis), it's a natural conclusion to see the institution that removes barriers for trade as a good thing.
Helping potential buyers of our shit off the ground (to more purchasing power) is good for Germany in the long run. Marshall-plan-esque, in a way.
johancruijff
Banned
The problem with this funds is that, much like the ones that are already available, are mostly misused
Shit most of the time they haven't even been utilized
Countries like mine (Italy) not even attaining the possibility of using these funds due to dumb administrators and politicians
Shit most of the time they haven't even been utilized
Countries like mine (Italy) not even attaining the possibility of using these funds due to dumb administrators and politicians
Theonik
Member
If the UK committing ritual suicide is what is necessary for European prosperity then so be it. It is not like the EU compelled them to do this.
boxoctosis
Member
Of course it's entirely possible Brexit doesn't mean economic suicide or other such definitive terms. Maybe the economy may be impaired for a while. Maybe in the longer term the UK economy will recover.
The narrative that Brexit == suicide or whatever is often quoted, but I personally think it's wrong to do so.
It's a massive, massive exaggeration. Most experts agree that it will harm the British economy, especially its outlook, but not to an enormous extent. EU and UK are not enemies.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
"Suicide" is overblown, and I say this as someone who despises Brexit with every fibre of my being. It won't be positive, many rights will be lost, many aspects of life here are likely to get worse, but a first world country won't be rendered 3rd world by stupid decisions. If Trump can't destroy the USA's (albeit declining for a long time now) status as a rich and prosperous country Brexit won't destroy the UK's status as a well developed Western European economy. The UK won't get richer, and in fact may well be eclipsed by the EU if the EU plays its cards right, but won't be completely wrecked.
I say the more reform to encourage the better functioning of the EU the better. A more successful EU means a greater likelihood of rejoining the single market at least within my working lifetime. I will continue to fight, and fight some more against Brexit for a long time to come.
I say the more reform to encourage the better functioning of the EU the better. A more successful EU means a greater likelihood of rejoining the single market at least within my working lifetime. I will continue to fight, and fight some more against Brexit for a long time to come.
Gurgelhals
Member
Schäuble is probably going to NEIN! this as hard as he can though. I guess a lot of this ultimately depends on whether he's still going to be Minister of Finance after the elections or not.
Correct. National tribalism will rattle the sabres for a while and be loud, but money rules the day. The UK will absolutely hurt but this 'ROFL YOURE GONNA GET RECKT' on both sides is silly.
What's more important to you? A shared Eurozone budget and a closer union or tariff free British cakes?
Choose wisely.
Theonik
Member
Oh, but this matters naught because this is all about optics.
Regardless of what the final outcome for the UK is, even if it is in the short term it helps drive the electorates in the EZ that enables this movement politically.
Politics has never been about 'facts' in as much as it is about convincing people.
Cake tariffs won't be so bad. As long as it doesn't lead May to do something really dumb like war with Spain it's not so bad.
PdotMichael
Banned
Well done.
I'm for a soft Brexit now after realizing that the Lidl Cheddar (mature) is produced in the UK. Don't take that away from me!
It would be trivially easy to make dispursement of funds contingent on meeting EU budget guidelines.
PdotMichael
Banned
The joke would be that an EU budget would give the EU some control about national budgets.
From a policy perspective the Eurozone currently exists in limbo, a economic zone with monetary policy (control over the money supply) but no fiscal policy (control over spending). The Eurozone is provides evidence that you cannot have one without the other unless you are willing to accept large continuous transfers to address imbalances in disparate economies throughout the zone (bailouts to the Mediterranean states, essentially).
Those of you in the EU are faced with the choice of continuing in this fashion or merging your budget to allow for a fiscal policy that is married to your monetary one, and all that entails.
Those of you in the EU are faced with the choice of continuing in this fashion or merging your budget to allow for a fiscal policy that is married to your monetary one, and all that entails.
This won't come to pass. People in the EU want to pretend like things are great but they're not. Still facing massive unchecked migration, massive difference in countries with regards to budgets and deficits and surpluses. Plus the loss of the UK leaves the EU without one of their most powerful militaries and an economy that was poised to overtake Germany in 2030.
This would make sense if the Union was smaller than it currently is. But I don't see it happening. If it did, would be the first step towards just being a Federation, coupled with a united military.
This would make sense if the Union was smaller than it currently is. But I don't see it happening. If it did, would be the first step towards just being a Federation, coupled with a united military.
PJV3
Member
Wasn't that 2030 UK GDP forecast based on population growth and EU immigration driving it upwards? .
That sounds more like a reason for the UK to stay in the EU than for worrying about it.
He just spoke in favor of it this week:
https://www.welt.de/politik/deutsch...-fuer-Macrons-radikale-Euro-Zonen-Plaene.html
IIRC he was pretty open towards it for some time. All he said was he thinks it's unrealistic to think changes of EU treaties are possible at the moment.
He also suggests his evergreen suggestion of creating a european iMF.
SporeCrawler
Member
UK made a sovereign decision to leave. Thats fine and the UKs prerogative but now you also demand that EU citizens should not be allowed to have an opinion about it? How about this: We have constitutionally guaranteed freedom of speech in most of the EU (unlike the UK once you leave, mind you) and if we feel like the decision of the UK was not only irrational but highly egocentric then thats our prerogative to criticize the UK for it.
Also the general thought of UK politicians is that UK can leave but will get all benefits of the EU and that does not induce compassion at all.
we will see about that wont we?
SporeCrawler
Member
SporeCrawler
Member
the UKs wealth is largely dependent on financial services. so banks, insurances and the accounting and legal services that go with it. a third of that is EU related and with the brexit the banks will no longer be able to serve from UK. this means that they either move to EU or just abandon the business. either way the UK economy will loose a huge chunk of its most important sector.
with services it is easy to relocate because at the end of the day you only need the people, IT infrastructure and the legal framework. you dont need machines, technology, the supply chain etc. as with production. in other words, as london will be less attractive as a place with high paying jobs many people will leave london.
with manufacturing its even worse. the entire automotive industry in UK is owned by indians, french or german companies. also those companies import a huge amount of components from european countries. once tariffs are introduced the cars will be more expensive and even less competitive than now for export.
so yeah it doesnt look very good at the moment in my opinion.