This discussion was always going to exist eventually. Fact of the matter is since the end of the cold war the cross Atlantic alliance has been increasingly at odds with each other on what the alliance means. At the end of the day, Russia, who is essentially a regional power, is what's driving the alliance towards death indicates nothing more than how sick it was to begin with. Obama was already making European leaders uneasy with his talk of pivoting US policy more towards Asia and letting Europe handle more of its own regional affairs by itself.
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Merkel warns US, Britain no longer reliable partners
- Thread starter Xando
- Start date
This discussion was always going to exist eventually. Fact of the matter is since the end of the cold war the cross Atlantic alliance has been increasingly at odds with each other on what the alliance means. At the end of the day, Russia, who is essentially a regional power, is what's driving the alliance towards death indicates nothing more than how sick it was to begin with. Obama was already making European leaders uneasy with his talk of pivoting US policy more towards Asia and letting Europe handle more of its own regional affairs by itself.
Does Afghanistan ring a bell?
The point of the post wasn't to say that everything bad that has happened is exclusively the US fault, I even specifically mentioned that terrorist attacks were happening before, even the soviet union has meddled in there, the post was to point out the absurdity that the USA was "giving out free candy".
Also while colonialism is surely a part of the reason why the middle east continues to have problems, it is a bit disingenuous to point out to that as the leading cause of current issues when there have been significant interventions there in more recent times, even if those interventions are to try and help a pre-existing issue.
I mean we can also say point to colonialism as playing a part in racism in America, but at the end of the day not quite the leading cause of today issues I would argue.
fabricated backlash
Member
That much was clear to anyone who didn't have to remain diplomatic, right after the US election ended. Europe can no longer rely on the US as a reliable ally, neither can the UK.
With Tsar Putin, to the East, V for Vendetta Cosplayer Theresa May on that rainy little rock to the North and an extra racist and orange Jabba the Hut in the West, we need to get our shit together.
With Tsar Putin, to the East, V for Vendetta Cosplayer Theresa May on that rainy little rock to the North and an extra racist and orange Jabba the Hut in the West, we need to get our shit together.
Yeah one of the stories of the Trump administration is just how much soft power America is ceding around the world with its allies. Not just in Europe either; in the the Americas, in the Pacific, across the globe.
The source of this isn't going away either, the GOP will still exist and have influence on US foreign policy long after Trump.
The source of this isn't going away either, the GOP will still exist and have influence on US foreign policy long after Trump.
ClosingADoor
Member
Germany doesn't want Russia at its border any more then Russia wants Germany there. That is why we have Poland. Its who has the influence over the "buffer states" that matter, with those states rather having an alliance with the west.
If Russia attacked, Germany would honor the alliance, even if only because it is better to fight in someone else's land and have that be destroyed then needing to fight in your own country.
How is losing the UK a speed bump? They were poised to be the #1 Eurozone economy in 2030 and perhaps the most populous with also the #1 or #2 strongest military. It is the end of an era because the UK and thw rest of Europe are not rejoining anytime soon. If anything Germany needs to start envisioning a plan for a future where the EU itself may or may not exist. Geert and Marine Le Pen may have lost, but they had better numbers with younger future voters than older ones and the anti-EU sentiment is still there in a lot of states. Italy is still struggling with migrants with little to no help, countries like Poland will not bow to threat of sanctions and take any etc. Walls and borders going up between Autria and Hungary and Serbia etc.
Muffin1611
Banned
Because the EU doesn't have to put up with a country that demands special concessions from the rest and blocks further integration at several turns.
Also, as me and other people said on pages before this, the EU won't cease to exist. Right-wing parties are behind their peak and the UK itself will serve as example why exiting the EU isn't really a good idea.
PdotMichael
Banned
How can one deny the reality so hard?
RPGCrazied
Member
She is not wrong. She along with Justin, Macron are now the world leaders in my opinion.
superdeluxe
Member
It's time for Germany to rise up and lead Europe in countering Russia.
j_k_redtail
Member
This is, like, the first 100 pages or so of Red Storm Rising.
superdeluxe
Member
Justin? To be a world leader don't you have to some means at your disposal to take care of your allies and country?
Although I'm always interested in what other's criteria is.
lastplayed
Member
As the great British-American band Fleetwood Mac once said: "you can go your own way".
iRAWRasaurus
Banned
The irony in this.
superdeluxe
Member
I know....but if not Germany than who?
KaoteK
Member
As a Brit, as much as it pains me to say it, you're spot on. What a sad state of affairs.
I'm left wondering how easy it would be for me to get an EU passport as my mum is Dutch...
Monty Mole
Member
If Britain is really buying in to populism then the Tories wouldn't be leading right now and Corbyn will win the election on June 8th.
George Washington
Member
It's true.
lastplayed
Member
Well Britain and Europe have spent a good few centuries clashing over ideals. So business as usual!
iRAWRasaurus
Banned
Nah I just think it's ironic that Germany was the "big bad evil guy" in both world wars. Go for it I say.
What's your problem with Canada? We may not have the best army but we are well educated, have a great science research program and quality of life. I bet we do as much for the world than stupid american wars.
habithipster
Member
From reddit,
Monty Mole
Member
Of course. But to think it won't affect EU or somehow the EU is stronger without them as well is foolish. England was the cultural power of the EU. London a bigger world city than a France or Berlin. Hell it is why migrants still try to escape France into the UK. Without the UK, the cultural power of the UK behind them in global matters, it makes it tougher.
Maybe. But no one predicted any of this would come to pass. People used to predict the EU would have been a federated superpower union before Brexit. You can't predict what can happen. Maybe it can bring Europe closer together which is what Merkel is saying with we have to rely on ourselves and not Britain and France. In the end, I think both sides are worse off.
Yeah ok, keep thinking the UK leaving isn't an existential moment for the EU which loses their #1 or #2 military, their strongest cultural soft power, 15% of the current population, 20% almost of GDP, 13% of exports worldwide etc. The future of the EU now rests solely with Germany and France, maybe Italy.
superdeluxe
Member
Who said I have a problem with Canada 🤔. When people think of world leaders, most think about countries that can project some sort of force. Countries like Sweden are great, but does the world consider it one of the 'leaders of the world?'
PdotMichael
Banned
See various elections, see EU growth rates vs UK, see poltical will for reforms in regard to the EU and Eurozone.
The wet dream of the Brexiters didn't become reality.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
These are all things we can address with more and better inmigration. How's that for irony.
Is Germany a reliable ally?
Shitty driveby with a total non-argument. Most of the reasons this is BS have been stated already, but this deserves to be shamed.
Pray tell, what was/is Merkels stance on Russian sanctions again? Or just lately, who criticised the Chechnya gay-rights issue openly?
Just because Merkel acts as a mediator does not mean she doesn't criticise.
On a side note: Correcting other people's minor spelling errors on an international forum? Wow.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
Eh, not entirely.
Orniletter
Banned
Me 2 weeks ago:
The goddam EU is here to stay, whatever wild disaster porn you love to envision will not come to pass.
A second Trump term, you mean? You got it mate.
Which is why Merkel is taking the opportunity now to get the ball rolling on a more federal Europe with Germany at the centre.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
I wouldn't worry about the UK being a reliable military ally if the Conservatives win the GE. I'd be more concerned if Corbyn and his floppy backbone was in power, on that front.
It's probably the only thing a Con government is good for.
It's probably the only thing a Con government is good for.
Hey now, riding golf carts is very hard work.
It is fascinating how fast Merkel is moving now. They must have worked hard since her visit in Washington. Her latest remarks after the G7 Summit accompanied by the brutal assessment of Trump's America in the Spiegel (they basically said Trump has to go -period- and the world has to work around the White House for the time being) and today Modi is visiting Berlin, then soon there will be the G20 summit in Hamburg. Trump is already isolated and he doesn't comprehend any of it.
Edit: here is a transcript of the Spiegel article
http://m.dailykos.com/story/2017/5/26/1666273/-German-newspaper-rips-Trump-calling-him-unfit-and-a-danger-to-the-world
Edit: here is a transcript of the Spiegel article
http://m.dailykos.com/story/2017/5/26/1666273/-German-newspaper-rips-Trump-calling-him-unfit-and-a-danger-to-the-world
Well the loss of Britain to the EU while not a at all a small thing, it is also probably not going to be as big of a deal to the EU as one might expect, even an hard Brexit which is pretty much all negative for the UK has some advantages over a soft one for the EU (even if a soft brexit is preferable).
A significant portion of the financial market in London is just coming back to the EU, several companies have stopped hiring there since brexit, and they will start hire inside the EU instead, research investments going to the UK will also move to the EU, medical personal going to the UK will also likely end up seeking jobs inside the EU especially giving tory treatment of the NHS which is bound to just get worse as brexit provides news cover not to mention less money rarely equates to better health care, there will almost certainly be some level of brain drain going on as research dries up in the UK and opportunities decrease.
So all in all we can't look at the UK current value and assume the EU is losing all of it, because it isn't, much like all trade between UK and the EU isn't going to stop, in fact due to geography and pre existing ties there is really no country that can even realistically take the role of the EU for the UK.
As for the EU being in danger, outside of some unforeseeable events would bet on anti EU politicians having had the best shot they will have for quite sometime, especially since I suspect that unfortunately a May lead brexit will be nothing short of a total fuck up, she can't even lead an election properly despite being in a much stronger position, god only knows how she will handle negotiating with a much stronger economy that has a lot less to lose, and one of the biggest and most experienced teams of negotiators in the world.
A significant portion of the financial market in London is just coming back to the EU, several companies have stopped hiring there since brexit, and they will start hire inside the EU instead, research investments going to the UK will also move to the EU, medical personal going to the UK will also likely end up seeking jobs inside the EU especially giving tory treatment of the NHS which is bound to just get worse as brexit provides news cover not to mention less money rarely equates to better health care, there will almost certainly be some level of brain drain going on as research dries up in the UK and opportunities decrease.
So all in all we can't look at the UK current value and assume the EU is losing all of it, because it isn't, much like all trade between UK and the EU isn't going to stop, in fact due to geography and pre existing ties there is really no country that can even realistically take the role of the EU for the UK.
As for the EU being in danger, outside of some unforeseeable events would bet on anti EU politicians having had the best shot they will have for quite sometime, especially since I suspect that unfortunately a May lead brexit will be nothing short of a total fuck up, she can't even lead an election properly despite being in a much stronger position, god only knows how she will handle negotiating with a much stronger economy that has a lot less to lose, and one of the biggest and most experienced teams of negotiators in the world.
No, it isn't an existential moment for EU. It's a complicated moment, but far from being existential. Because UK was already outside of the first circle of EU which is the Eurozone. That's why France electing Le Pen would have really been an existential moment, but Brexit not. It could be an existential moment for UK though if not handled properly.
Plus, it was all by decision of UK, so I don't understand now this attitude of a crazy ex-boyfriend/girlfriend that some of you have. You decided to break away, why are you mad now that EU is moving on?
Because he is salty that we dont give the UK a special treatment.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Back on election night the german advisors all said that we'll have to wait and see how Trump will act.
But I am sure that they already expected what was about to happen and prepared for it.
This is basically liberalism/secularism vs. nationalism all over again, on a global scale.
But by the looks of it the US choose the other side this time around.
Now its time for the remaining liberal western democracies to step up.
There isn't enough backing for liberal values in the US currently, and that was known way before Trump came to Europe.
You'd think something like that comes from a fringe right wing nut job, but no, thats mainstream now.
Just go through the Fox News twitter feed. Its pure poison.
All it took was a bit of fear mongering about immigration and muslims and Americans threw the very values their country was built on out the window.
And I don't see that development reversing. In fact, the hateful rhetoric, the nationalist policies, the fear mongering, the lies. All that is normalized more and more every day.
Facts don't matter anymore. Feelings do.
A country that works like that can't be a reliable partner. (thats true for US and UK)
They have been preparing for this since Trump Election Day.
If you read her statement about the US election you'll see that for the first time in 70 years a german chancellor offered cooperation only on certain terms(in this case values like human rights, democracy etc.).
She has held basically the same speech in Malta earlier this year but it didn't blew up like this one has.
Back on election night the german advisors all said that we'll have to wait and see how Trump will act.
But I am sure that they already expected what was about to happen and prepared for it.
This is basically liberalism/secularism vs. nationalism all over again, on a global scale.
But by the looks of it the US choose the other side this time around.
Now its time for the remaining liberal western democracies to step up.
There isn't enough backing for liberal values in the US currently, and that was known way before Trump came to Europe.
You'd think something like that comes from a fringe right wing nut job, but no, thats mainstream now.
Just go through the Fox News twitter feed. Its pure poison.
All it took was a bit of fear mongering about immigration and muslims and Americans threw the very values their country was built on out the window.
And I don't see that development reversing. In fact, the hateful rhetoric, the nationalist policies, the fear mongering, the lies. All that is normalized more and more every day.
Facts don't matter anymore. Feelings do.
A country that works like that can't be a reliable partner. (thats true for US and UK)
What the fuck at that tweet. Traitors.
Actually, yes. Sweden has a very good reputation in the diplomatic circles, they are active in resolving world conflicts through negotiations and getting people to sit around the same table. They are also one of the leading nations in developing developmental aid, which many larger nations looks up as an example.
Swedish politicians are also very influential in their own circles. If you take the Party of European Socialists which basically combines all the European social democratic parties, Swedish members do have much more influence in their European policies than members from much larger countries - in many topics it's Sweden that is leading the discussion.
Yes, they don't have the hard power in terms of economics or military projection, but in terms of influence Sweden is near the top among the nations.
Dr Funfrock
Member
It's a good stance to take since Trump has been spouting "America first" nonsense since day one.
If Britain can re-join the EU at some point (when will this be a possibility?) and US manange to not elect a republican the next time while getting people to vote democratic for house/senate things might be okay?
As dictators go, Robert Mugabe is 93 and not slowing down, so I guess Putin at 64 has a good 25 years left on the throne.
If Britain can re-join the EU at some point (when will this be a possibility?) and US manange to not elect a republican the next time while getting people to vote democratic for house/senate things might be okay?
As dictators go, Robert Mugabe is 93 and not slowing down, so I guess Putin at 64 has a good 25 years left on the throne.
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