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[Dehnus]

How is losing the UK a speed bump? They were poised to be the #1 Eurozone economy in 2030 and perhaps the most populous with also the #1 or #2 strongest military. It is the end of an era because the UK and thw rest of Europe are not rejoining anytime soon. If anything Germany needs to start envisioning a plan for a future where the EU itself may or may not exist. Geert and Marine Le Pen may have lost, but they had better numbers with younger future voters than older ones and the anti-EU sentiment is still there in a lot of states. Italy is still struggling with migrants with little to no help, countries like Poland will not bow to threat of sanctions and take any etc. Walls and borders going up between Autria and Hungary and Serbia etc.

Then it seems we are looking at a war, due to the selfish and powerhungry politicians. If that happens, may the planet have mercy on us all, as Europeans tend to go all out in their hatred for the other once they do war. Ask any former colonial state on how far Europeans go in destruction, ask the Germans about the French after the First World war. Ask the Flemish about the Germans during the second... the list goes on and one.

Due to that reason, Europeans, and their hatred being so easily fueled, will have no qualms about using Atomic weapons on each other. But.. for a short moment, we created a "feeling of traditions and safety" for those happy to live and die in their houses and envious on anybody who dared to travel to the point that they want to make it impossible. Remember these are people that put their own neighbours in concentration camps to be "destroyed", and no ... I'm not just talking about the NAZI's here. In Norway we put the lovers of German soldiers in camps for a while for instance.

We Europeans just LOVE to hate people.

 

[ittoryu]

I wouldn't worry about the UK being a reliable military ally if the Conservatives win the GE. I'd be more concerned if Corbyn and his floppy backbone was in power, on that front.

It's probably the only thing a Con government is good for.

I'd prefer to have this "floppy backbone" instead of more years of tory delirium bullshit.

 

[ISee]

Because the EU doesn't have to put up with a country that demands special concessions from the rest and blocks further integration at several turns.

Also, as me and other people said on pages before this, the EU won't cease to exist. Right-wing parties are behind their peak and the UK itself will serve as example why exiting the EU isn't really a good idea.

We still have kaczynski in Poland. A nationalistic, right wing party leader that hates Germany, Russia and the EU with every cell in his body. His party is currently the leading force in Poland and they are working very hard on destroying the polish democracy right now. Sadly nobody outside of Poland seems to care.
We also have Orban in Hungary.
Right wing party's aren't behind their peak. They are still hard at work to make the world a worse place for all of us. Even in the EU.

 

[nekkid]

I'd prefer to have this "floppy backbone" instead of more years of tory delirium bullshit.

I'd also prefer to eat a shit sandwich than being stabbed in the leg.

 

[Bashtee]

This is all so fucking crazy, but then again... what do you expect from a country that supports creationism as well as discrimination of LGBT people at schools? Next thing we know is how Trump announces that flat-earth is real and anti-vax is the best choice.

And Britain... yeah, well. Seems like they shot themselves in the foot and the pain hasn't reached the head yet.

The irony in this.

I know, right? This is just like... such a mess.

I mean it's a nice post if we start mideast history at 9/11 and work from there, but most of the brush fires and regional instability the US has tried to combat in the region (including Saddam) is direct fallout from European colonialism.

That's because the US was - together with european countries - fucking around in that region. They were involved in overthrowing Mossadegh in Iran 1953 - a democraticly elected, who was for the seperation of state and religion-, installing a dictator to secure oil. That lead to an islamic revolution in Iran and the US supported Saddam Hussein to fight Iran. On a sidenote: according to the CIA documents released in 2013, the US actually knew about the usage of chemical weapons. 8 years war and over 750.000 dead.

Later the Sovjets went into Afghanistan and the US supported radical islamists to fight them. One of the leaders was actually Osama bin Laden. Over 1 mio. dead civilians.

Then Sadam Hussein went into Kuwait and a fucking PR company (financed by the kuwait leaders living in an US exile) spread the rumor of iraqi-soldiers taking babys out of their incubators and killing them that way. A new war, over a million dead.

US troops stationed in Kuwait, Al-Qaida and Osama bin Laden view it as a violation of the holy land -> 9/11 and so on.

Europe sure as hell isn't innocent, but please don't downplay the role of the US in that massive clusterfuck called middle east.

No one in the western world is free from bloody hands in the region, and trying to pretend otherwise is idiotic.

Truth.

 

[Xando]

We still have kaczynski in Poland. A nationalistic, right wing party leader that hates Germany, Russia and the EU with every cell in his body. His party is currently the leading force in Poland and they are working very hard on destroying the polish democracy right now. Sadly nobody outside of Poland seems to care.
We also have Orban in Hungary.
Right wing party's aren't behind their peak. They are still hard at work to make the world a worse place for all of us. Even in the EU.

Kaczynski called for Merkel to start a european nuclear program.

 

[ISee]

Kaczynski called for Merkel to start a european nuclear program.

So what. Erdogan is also gladly taking Merkels money and soldiers while calling her a Nazi without a break. I said kaczynski is a eu, Russia and Germany hating nationalist and not that he is stupid. Just dangerous and power hungry.
He demanded an eu wide nuclear program because Poland is currently building his own first nuclear reactor btw. Something many people are very proud of over there. Germany on the other side is ending its own nuclear program. His call was futile and he knew it. He just wanted to have another bullet point how Merkel and the eu are holding Poland back.

 

[Funky Papa]

Kaczynski is that asshole that fears Germany almost as much as he fears Russia down to his almost literal reptilian brain, yet there he is, making mendacious demands to Germany and the whole Union at every chance he finds. Seeing Tusk reelected and Poland's subsequent shit fit was balsamic.

He and Orbán need to fuck off into the sunset. Those two faced idiots are getting too big for their britches.

 

[ISee]

Kaczynski is that asshole that fears Germany almost as much as he fears Russia down to his almost literal reptilian brain, yet there he is, making mendacious demands to Germany and the whole Union at every chance he finds. Seeing Tusk reelected and Poland's subsequent shit fit was balsamic.

He and Orbán need to fuck off into the sunset. Those two faced idiots are getting too big for their britches.

They are apparently even trying to rewrite school history books. They try to make the kaczynski twins the real heroes of the solidarity movement...

 

[Fritz]

Back on election night the german advisors all said that we'll have to wait and see how Trump will act.
But I am sure that they already expected what was about to happen and prepared for it.


This is basically liberalism/secularism vs. nationalism all over again, on a global scale.
But by the looks of it the US choose the other side this time around.

Now its time for the remaining liberal western democracies to step up.

There isn't enough backing for liberal values in the US currently, and that was known way before Trump came to Europe.

You'd think something like that comes from a fringe right wing nut job, but no, thats mainstream now.
Just go through the Fox News twitter feed. Its pure poison.

All it took was a bit of fear mongering about immigration and muslims and Americans threw the very values their country was built on out the window.

And I don't see that development reversing. In fact, the hateful rhetoric, the nationalist policies, the fear mongering, the lies. All that is normalized more and more every day.
Facts don't matter anymore. Feelings do.

A country that works like that can't be a reliable partner. (thats true for US and UK)

They have been preparing for this since Trump Election Day.

If you read her statement about the US election you'll see that for the first time in 70 years a german chancellor offered cooperation only on certain terms(in this case values like human rights, democracy etc.).

She has held basically the same speech in Malta earlier this year but it didn't blew up like this one has.

It is an escalation on her side however. The timing, the rethoric, the international press echo. (Edit: just found this FAZ article from today on that issue) I just remembered that also Obama visited berlin last week and met up with her. He also had a lot of access to trump and is now surely able to share his personal impressions with her.

But seriously, a stronger EU is a benefit for everyone. It can also be a relief for the us to share responsibility. It's great for Asia (incl India and china) and Africa since they have other options than to partner with the US or Russia. It just diversified the international stage.

Only losers here will be the U.K. And it is hard to feel sorry for them/you guys.

 

[guggnichso]

It is weird how confident people in this thread are that Germany would honour article 5 if Russia attacked one of its neighbours under any circumstances. I'm sure Merkel would but does anyone think for a second that Schroeder would have? There has always been a fairly large russophile contingent in German politics. If I was an Eastern European country deciding defence policy I wouldn't want to be depending on support from Berlin.

The only time article 5 was EVER invoked was during Schröders tenure as chancellor. It was invoked by the USA after 9/11, and of course Schröder honored it, this is why there's German soldiers in Afghanistan to this day.

 

[Xando]

It's worth noting that Merkel is the more US friendly chancellor candidate. As slim as Schulz's chances are he is even harder pro EU anti Trump.

He tweeted this today:

The best answer to Donald Trump is a stronger Europe.
La meilleure réponse à Donald Trump, c'est une Europe plus forte.

https://twitter.com/MartinSchulz/status/869153666451861504

 

[ittoryu]

I'd also prefer to eat a shit sandwich than being stabbed in the leg.

Ahem, not sure I understand, but sure.

 

[TheLaughingStock]

A bit OT however some food for thought on these partnerships:

People often argue that America's alliances in Asia are a decisive advantage in its contest with China for regional strategic primacy. China's only ally, they say, is North Korea, while America has an entire alliance system encompassing many key regional states, as well as a wider circle of close friends. Without allies and friends like that, the argument goes, China can never replace America as the region's leading power.

But that's probably wrong.

https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/us-v-china-who-needs-allies

 

[KingSnake]

A bit OT however some food for thought on these partnerships:



https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/us-v-china-who-needs-allies

This comes also in the context of Trump attacking both Japan and South Korea in his presidential campaign and just recently trying to blackmail South Korea into paying for their security.

 

[Madness]

Me 2 weeks ago:
The goddam EU is here to stay, whatever wild disaster porn you love to envision will not come to pass.

Uh, okay? What I wrote was factually true. The UK 'was' going to be the #1 Western European economy soon. I am not envisioning a disaster porn for the EU. But envisioning a likely scenario that it isn't all sunshines and rainbows going forward. The fact somehow Greece leaving the EU got Germany so upset they went for regime change, etc. and was going to be sucha devastating moment, you had the EU win the Nobel Peace Prize etc. But the UK leaving, ah no biggie, we'll be better off mentality is absolutely bonkers. The EU was the UK along with France and Germany.

The election of Donald Trump did damage to European populism more than the UK leaving aka Brexit. Because people started to realize, we can have morons in office who will ruin things. But I am not convinced the issues are still not there.

Because he is salty that we dont give the UK a special treatment.

I am not British brother. I just love talking politics, even if it may be out of my ass. I said both sides needed each other. Both the EU and UK are weaker without each other. Especially in a coming multipolar world where you will have China and India jostling for power and competing. So not salty about anything. The EU holds the greater chips and so will naturally come out ahead.

 

[Ash735]

We're slowly heading for World War 3 at this point, so the rest of us might as well just sit back, relax, and await death.

 

[funkystudent]

We're slowly heading for World War 3 at this point, so the rest of us might as well just sit back, relax, and await death.

So just keep doing what I have been doing?

 

[SpaceWolf]

A sizable portion of us Brits voted vehemently against Brexit.

Please don't hold the vote over all of us.

 

[Irminsul]

It is an escalation on her side however. The timing, the rethoric, the international press echo. (Edit: just found this FAZ article from today on that issue) I just remembered that also Obama visited berlin last week and met up with her. He also had a lot of access to trump and is now surely able to share his personal impressions with her.

I love that the Economist of all papers knows what Merkel is on about:

Foreigners often get Mrs Merkel all wrong. She is not the queen of Europe, nor has she any desire to be it. She is a domestic leader and politician whose mounting international stature is always a function of her ability to serve the interests and predilections of German voters. It is predominantly because Germans, for deep historical and cultural reasons, feel so “European” that that she talks and acts in a “European” way. Perhaps all the more for this, Mrs Merkel’s comments today illustrate how much Trumpandbrexit has hurt America and Britain in the past months. They have made it not just possible but also electorally beneficial for a friendly leader of a crucial partner to bash them in public. And more than that: to do it with sincerity.

(Source)

 

[tuxfool]

I love that the Economist of all papers knows what Merkel is on about:



(Source)

Eh. The economist is rather good at that sort of thing.

 

[avaya]

A sizable portion of us Brits voted vehemently against Brexit.

Please don't hold the vote over all of us.

We are unfortunately outnumbered by a larger portion of the country which is deplorable.

 

[Turbo Killer]

Sure if they can stand up to Russia without US help then go right ahead, and if the US can afford to lose their bases in Germany then why not. However I believe neither of them want to deal with either scenario.

 

[Fritz]

We are unfortunately outnumbered by a larger portion of the country which is deplorable.

Aren't you German anyways?

 

[avaya]

Aren't you German anyways?

There are many Michael Schumacher fans in Britain you know

Londoner born and bred.

 

[Gutek]

Sure if they can stand up to Russia without US help then go right ahead, and if the US can afford to lose their bases in Germany then why not. However I believe neither of them want to deal with either scenario.

US is going to stand up to Russia, what?

 

[excelsiorlef]

A sizable portion of us Brits voted vehemently against Brexit.

Please don't hold the vote over all of us.

What do you want other countries to do though?

Like on a macro level Brexit is the stance of the country, countries don't negotiate with citizens but with political representatives of those countries.

 

[Frankfurter]

Uh, okay? What I wrote was factually true. The UK 'was' going to be the #1 Western European economy soon. I am not envisioning a disaster porn for the EU. But envisioning a likely scenario that it isn't all sunshines and rainbows going forward. The fact somehow Greece leaving the EU got Germany so upset they went for regime change, etc. and was going to be sucha devastating moment, you had the EU win the Nobel Peace Prize etc. But the UK leaving, ah no biggie, we'll be better off mentality is absolutely bonkers. The EU was the UK along with France and Germany.

The election of Donald Trump did damage to European populism more than the UK leaving aka Brexit. Because people started to realize, we can have morons in office who will ruin things. But I am not convinced the issues are still not there.



I am not British brother. I just love talking politics, even if it may be out of my ass. I said both sides needed each other. Both the EU and UK are weaker without each other. Especially in a coming multipolar world where you will have China and India jostling for power and competing. So not salty about anything. The EU holds the greater chips and so will naturally come out ahead.

It was just one out of dozens of projections. And a rather ridiculous one, too, imo. There is no way the UK could have closed a $1 trillion gap in GDP until 2030, unless you chose to go with vastly outdated population numbers for Germany (i.e. 75 million or less in 2030, which is not gonna happen).

 

[Spladam]

A sizable portion of us Brits voted vehemently against Brexit.

Please don't hold the vote over all of us.

People tend to only see the votes for the victor. I worry that if I went back to Europe now, I'd spend parts of every political discussion pointing out that the majority of U.S. citizens did NOT vote for Trump, but we are seen as the nation that voted him in. This would be AFTER I lie and tell them I'm Canadian.

US is going to stand up to Russia, what?

If it were consequential to U.S. interest, sure. Sorry Ukraine.

 

[cyba89]

We're slowly heading for World War 3 at this point, so the rest of us might as well just sit back, relax, and await death.

This WW3 meme on GAF really needs to die already.

 

[jufonuk]

Wth?? Ww3 all that will happen is the uk leave and the idiots that want it celebrate the rest like uh. New deals will be made maybe England will eat humble pie and stop acting like fucking arrogant big shots..

 

[Fritz]

There are many Michael Schumacher fans in Britain you know

Londoner born and bred.

Could've sworn, lol

 

[Tovarisc]

People tend to only see the votes for the victor. I worry that if I went back to Europe now, I'd spend parts of every political discussion pointing out that the majority of U.S. citizens did NOT vote for Trump, but we are seen as the nation that voted him in. This would be AFTER I lie and tell them I'm Canadian.

USA as nation chose Trump. UK as nation chose BREXIT. Finland as nation chose Niinistö as our President.

And so on.

Even if you as individual didn't vote for X doesn't change that majority (or some out dated electoral college system in case of USA) did choose X and X is in effect. If you get urge to point out that you as individual didn't vote for X go ahead, but it won't change how world views end results of elections or votes.

I kinda understand electoral college system and why it was originally put into place, but it to be in place in 2017 fucks with my mind and I just don't understand why in USA 1 vote can be 0.7 votes or 1.4 votes. As over simplified example.

 

[Muffin1611]

I kinda understand electoral college system and why it was originally put into place, but it to be in place in 2017 fucks with my mind and I just don't understand why in USA 1 vote can be 0.7 votes or 1.4 votes. As over simplified example.

While I don't get that either, I can understand some of the arguments made about this.

The truly fucked up thing about that system is the "winner-takes-all" bullshit.

 

[nekkid]

We are unfortunately outnumbered by a larger portion of the country which is deplorable.

That's inaccurate.

 

[Calm Mind]

 

[Gutek]

Edit: Nvm this was about Brexit. I have no clue about brexit.

 

[nekkid]

How? Most people in this country did not stand up to vote against bigotry, racism, sexism, and downright fascist ideas.

It was a minority that were decent enough to stand up against this shit.

So only deplorable people voted for Brexit, and only non-deplorable people voted remain?

That's not a very enlightened opinion.

 

[SpaceWolf]

What do you want other countries to do though?

Like on a macro level Brexit is the stance of the country, countries don't negotiate with citizens but with political representatives of those countries.

I was addressing the people in this thread being so disparaging of the British people following this result, not Merkel nor the politicians who are justifiably starting to stop looking at Britain as something of a viable partner.

 

[Xando]

Sigmar Gabriel (German foreign minister) also lashed out just now

Germany's foreign minister launched a scathing criticism of Donald Trump on Monday, claiming the US President's actions have "weakened" the West and accusing the US government of standing "against the interests of the European Union."

Just 24 hours after German Chancellor Angela Merkel declared that Europe could no longer completely rely on traditional allies such as the US and Britain, the country's top diplomat, Sigmar Gabriel, went a step further.
"Anyone who accelerates climate change by weakening environmental protection, who sells more weapons in conflict zones and who does not want to politically resolve religious conflicts is putting peace in Europe at risk," Gabriel said.
"The short-sighted policies of the American government stand against the interests of the European Union. The West has become smaller, at least it has become weaker."

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/29/europe/angela-merkel-uk-amber-rudd/index.html?adkey=bn

Looks like this is a more organized push by the goverment

 

[Skellig Gra]

That's inaccurate.

Even if it was true that "larger portion" would be primarily older people who won't control the future of the country for much longer anyway.

 

[Fritz]

A very favourable article on her from the guardian

It really resonates with me as a German that had seen her rise through all these years.

 

[undu]

Sigmar Gabriel (German foreign minister) also lashed out just now


http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/29/europe/angela-merkel-uk-amber-rudd/index.html?adkey=bn

Looks like this is a more organized push by the goverment

Seems like they want to strengthen the German grip on the EU.

Worrying that they don't have a reconciling message, this weakens everybody involved.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

Seems like they want to strengthen the German grip on the EU.

And you reading that out of what? Because Gabriel agrees with Merkel? Is Macron also trying to strengthen the german grip if he also agrees?

 

[Armaros]

Seems like they want to strengthen the German grip on the EU.

Worrying that they don't have a reconciling message, this weakens everybody involved.

Its not Germany or the EU that needs to reconcile with the US or the UK.

 

[Occam]

Here's something i whipped up

Looking at the replies, it seems some people don't understand the headline.

It means "Merkel warns that US and Britain are no longer reliable partners", not that Merkel warns the US about Britain.

 

[chromatic9]

We still have kaczynski in Poland. A nationalistic, right wing party leader that hates Germany, Russia and the EU with every cell in his body. His party is currently the leading force in Poland and they are working very hard on destroying the polish democracy right now. Sadly nobody outside of Poland seems to care.
We also have Orban in Hungary.
Right wing party's aren't behind their peak. They are still hard at work to make the world a worse place for all of us. Even in the EU.

Seems strange given how much money Poland receives from the EU and the companies who've moved there from western Europe.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Seems like they want to strengthen the German grip on the EU.

Worrying that they don't have a reconciling message, this weakens everybody involved.

Yes, Germany should be the one with the reconciling message, not the UK and US who are fucking up international relations. /s

Seems strange given how much money Poland receives from the EU and the companies who've moved there from western Europe.

Poland seems to have the same rural and urban divide we see in other countries, where the rural areas are being left behind. Add to that a ton of people (mostly educated now) leaving for Western Europe because of better opportunities and you have an environment where a populist party can rise with an anti-EU message despite enjoying a lot of benefits from the EU.

 

[BGBW]

I hope that's a translation error and Merkel does actually realise Britain is Europe whether we're in the EU or not. We're not changing continent borders here.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

I hope that's a translation error and Merkel does actually realise Britain is Europe whether we're in the EU or not. We're not changing continent borders here.

Don't give people ideas, or we'll be having another referendum.