dragonbane
Member
Well, as long as it is not forced and tacky I'm ok with it I guess.
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Metal Gear Solid V's Disturbing Scenes Must 'Go to the Limit'
- Thread starter Sn4ke_911
- Start date
You are my friend.
I think the balance is a bit more rational than you're making it out to be, personally. Metal Gear Solid 2 and 3 in particular were very smart with how they handled the unique quirkiness these games have while still tackling serious subject matter.
I certainly understand your point, I just never thought it was jarring in those three games. I always felt like it flowed a lot better than it sounds like it would on paper.
No defending Otacon's backstory in MGS2 or the majority of MGS4 from me, though. Those are the only things that instantly come to mind when I think of how Kojima's botched writing before.
I'm really excited for this fact, because it provides one of the best incentives to use stealth in all of videogames. Do I sneak past these children so I don't need to kill them? Using the player's conscience to influence gameplay in a meaningful way would be an astonishing achievement. Seeing enemy children in a confrontation with a different enemy group, if the player tries to help the children they get murdered by either party.
The Phantom Pain title will refer to Big Boss' soul and conscience. By the end of MGSV Big Boss will be driven to insanity and rage, he'll put the blame on other people as well as himself. A man who once had a soul but doesn't anymore, the pain of being made soulless but remembering and feeling the soul you once had. The gameplay itself will tell this tale as well.
On a narrative level MGSV can already demolish the bullshit narrative in MGS4.
It works for some people, sure, but I just can't get my head around it.
If you want to be fantastical, with Wasp-People and Nanomachine Vampires, that's fine. I just don't consider that kind of story compatible with a message about nuclear war and child soldiers.
Kojima's story is so mish-mashed and overly convoluted, I can't consider it good quality.
If after even reading the Wikipedia page, it's still too difficult to understand, that not even your most devoted fans understand your story, that to me says that it's not of a particularly good quality.
Dem opinions!
edit: I know it works for some people, and fair play to them, they're more than entitled to enjoy whatever they want. But I just mean in terms of games telling amazing stories, as good as any film, I don't think Metal Gear Solid is, or should try to be, that kind of game.
Buckethead
Banned
It's a big generalization but going to the limit is typically reserved for camp and schlock whereas true works of art are lauded for their subtlety and restraint.
Honestly, I feel the same way. The only time Kojima ever comprehensively tackled a theme with a creative but restrained approach was Metal Gear Solid 2. Metal Gear Solid 3 was awesome, but it really was less about the themes and more about the characters.
MGS4 was a mess and so was Peace Walker.
Metal Gear: Other M
thunder_snail
Member
You can't put subtlety and restraint in a same sentence with walking nuclear battle tanks and cyborg ninja vs gay vampire.
Blame the people who demanded MGS2 be fully explained. It honestly isn't all that hard to follow if you don't consider MGS4. It's only when that game tried to explain things that weren't meant to be explained that the series got far too complicated for its own good.
For what it's worth, MGS3 brilliantly avoided this by being a prequel. This game takes place far before things get insane as well. Big Boss' story is rather simple when you think about it.
Opinionatedfish
Member
I remember when Ghost Babel came out on the GBC and you had
Keep in mind that the ESRB rated Metal Gear Solid: Ghost Babel "E" for Everyone. 
But eh. Controversy? I kind of think he thinks he's much more controversial than he actually is.
Bring it on, Kojima. Bring. It. On.
a character talk about skinning his victims alive to make his marionettes.. which he also implies that he has sex with... and that's not even the most messed up backstory in that game.
But eh. Controversy? I kind of think he thinks he's much more controversial than he actually is.
Bring it on, Kojima. Bring. It. On.
Maddocks
Member
that was my thinking as well.
Kojima honestly deserves a shit ton of flak for MGS4, like a incredible amount of flak. But a lot of other criticism for his work and writing falls flat sometimes. Yeah, sometimes the dialog is goofy and really oddly paced, yes, things do get hamfisted, but the ambitions and intentions for the narratives he creates lead to generally grounded themes and realities.
The life of a solider is tragic and most of the time unfulfilling. Murder is justified but murder no matter what leads to guilt and regret. The United States is manipulative and vicious. The digital age will lead to a abundance of information, context will potentially be lost and any one person has the tools to influence the world, positively or negatively. Patriotism and nationalism are fleeting concepts, society influences the priorities of humanity. Your own genetic history doesn't need to mean anything or be reason to do anything. Manipulation of information and the presentation of information is the best way to manipulate people.
All of these concepts and themes are part of MGS 1-3. When it comes to mainstream games I can't name another series that attempts to display themes like MGS does.
The life of a solider is tragic and most of the time unfulfilling. Murder is justified but murder no matter what leads to guilt and regret. The United States is manipulative and vicious. The digital age will lead to a abundance of information, context will potentially be lost and any one person has the tools to influence the world, positively or negatively. Patriotism and nationalism are fleeting concepts, society influences the priorities of humanity. Your own genetic history doesn't need to mean anything or be reason to do anything. Manipulation of information and the presentation of information is the best way to manipulate people.
All of these concepts and themes are part of MGS 1-3. When it comes to mainstream games I can't name another series that attempts to display themes like MGS does.
i bet my money that is that. It's the perfect scene to pump up as "go to the limit" when it's not a shocking scene in the slightest.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
He's been flapping his mouth a lot. But he actually shows off his games. They are tangible, real products. How many other devs release a system comparison video pre-release? Talk about transparency.
He might not hit the mark and the scenes will come off as tasteless or pointless. But that's not really a Molyneux thing. That would be more along the lines of creating something extremely ambitious and grand and it being fairly pedestrian when all is said and done. Kojima isn't hyping up MGSV in that regard. He's more about talking specific gameplay mechanics and story themes.
You would lose that bet guaranteed because it's sceneS (plural) and they already showed multiple scenes of torture in The Phantom Pain trailer along with child soldiers which is a whole other can of worms. The Paz scene is just one component.
All these separate threads for his "crazy" talk is from the same interview if I'm not mistaken. Leave it to Gaf to make it seem like he's gone off the deep end and started spewing whatever to whomever. Wondering why all of this couldn't have been in one thread.
Why blame the consumers?
1) MGS2 was too complicated to begin with. That's not their fault.
2) Kojima made the decision to compromise MGS4's quality to patch over the holes he left in MGS2. That wasnt the fault of his fans either.
The customer is always right my friend, if they don't understand the story, the story is too gawd darn complicated.
I do like Big Boss's story a lot more though as you say. Much more grounded. I'm honestly alright with the story as terms of the two clones of the ultimate soldier and a big tank that can fire nukes. It's when it goes supernatural and into fantasy where it loses the thread IMO.
monocle_wearing_hyrax
Neo Member
I trust Kojima. He is one of the best game directors and his games will go down as masterpieces. He is right, the medium needs to be pushed and if he is writing a story that calls for pushing certain aspects in the medium, i believe he will do it correctly. I happily await both Ground Zeroes and Phantom Pain. He may not have worked on a lot of different games but during his life with his work on Metal Gear he has written one of the best sagas in the past 100 years.
Bel_Air_Jeff
Banned
oh boy. This just sounds like "let's throw in some shock factor to sell a lot of units" sort of deal.
The fuck they are. Back in 2001 and somehow now one of the main reasons people state that they didn't like MGS2 is that they didn't play as Solid Snake for the majority of the game. There is frankly a large number of MGS fans that are easily enamored by the stylish or flashy aspects of the series and ignore core elements, from narrative to design.
There are typically 4 groups of MGS fans:
I love Metal Gear Solid 1-2-3, and detest MGS4
I love Metal Gear Solid 1-3-4, and detest MGS2
I love MGS 1-3, and detest MGS 2-4
I love the entire series.
Gotta say the first group is usually right.
Yes, because what sells games are allegories and examples of real life torture tactics. Digging a bomb out of someone's stomach and that being grotesque? Yeah, sales.
well obviously i'm talking about the side commentary he has been pushing in relation to the rational behind what he is attempting. Including revealing aspects about the game that should be left completely in the dark.
I blame the consumers because the situation is akin to fans sending death threats at Christopher Nolan and Warner Brothers to make a sequel to Inception that explains
whether or not Cobb was really in a dream at the end,
One of MGS2's most major themes was making you question the reality of everything you were playing. There was a lot of really crazy things going on that made it all seem completely unreal and bizarre, and Kojima intended to leave these mysteries unanswered in order to encourage real thought provoking discussions about the game. It was basically mocking canon-obsession, and Snake himself says at the end of the game that you have to "look at the meaning behind the words, and come to you own conclusion".
The problem with canonizing and explaining all of the events in MGS2 is that it forces the writer to take all of these things at face value, which is the complete antithesis to what MGS2 was supposed to be to begin with. There's a reason he tried so hard to avoid making the game - it misses the point of MGS2 entirely. He wouldn't have done it if he wasn't so pressured into it.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Sorry misunderstood you. That's been a problem since the third game honestly. Even if he said nothing, the trailers alone do enough to curb the element of surprise. MGS4 was even worse. He did a video where he spoiled the Shadow Moses part -_-
Going off on a bit of a tangent there pal.
Who brought playing as Solid Snake into this? And nobody mentioned people hating MGS2 either!
The conversation currently is about the storyline being too complicated. Nothing to do with how well-liked the games are.
Ambiguous endings that leave you guessing is one thing.
Metal Gear Solid 2 is another thing entirely.
Plus, if that was really the purpose of how vague MGS2 was, and that was the intention from the start, why did Kojima use MGS4 to explain everything?
If it was meant to be ambiguous and uncertain, he would have left it that way. (Like any good writer would.)
I brought that up to show how vapid and dim witted some of the criticism of MGS2 is. The reason some of the fanbase finds MGS2 complicated is they weren't/aren't trying to understand its intentions. You brought how well liked the games are in when you mentioned "the customer is always right" saying.
Cause like you said it wouldnt look crazy enough.
Actually, Raiden's inclusion as the main character is absolutely integral to what made the game so "complicated" to begin with. Again, I have to emphasize, the biggest problem with the Metal Gear series being complicated is trying to take the events of MGS2 at face value without bothering to think about the deeper thematic implications.
Demanding Solid Snake as the main character indicates exactly that.
It's the same it was left for you to decide what it meant and he wanted to leave it there. Then came the damn death threats and harrasing and he made MGS4 to appeal to those people. It wasnt meant to be explained and thats why it ended up a giant mess.
Rogue Agent
Banned
Death threats, I suppose?
TheContact
Member
Kojima watched breaking bad. Cool. I wonder what the ending is like that makes it so disturbing
I most certainly didn't bring up how well liked the games were when I mentioned that.
I brought up how if the consumer doesn't understand the story, the story is too complicated. Nothing to do with how well liked they are.
I apologise for your misunderstanding.
Right. Raiden, or whichever character you play as, is nothing to do with what I'm saying.
My point is that it's too complicated. The fact this discussion exists, proves that the storyline is too complicated. The fact that every new game in the series retcons something, shows it's too complicated, and is made up as it goes along.
If it's too complicated that nobody understands it ("thematic implications" or not") then it's useless.
edit: Some people are saying Death Threats.
Personally, I believe rendering your artistic work useless due to what other people think is an awful reason to do it.
I also believe death threats are awful and unacceptable, for the record.
Couldn't agree with him more. My grandmother watches racier content on Law & Order than most games have going.
The only exception is relatively cartoonish violence, which seems to get a pass in gaming.
Every single other thing is massively behind TV, movies, and books. So far behind that it's embarrassing.
The only exception is relatively cartoonish violence, which seems to get a pass in gaming.
Every single other thing is massively behind TV, movies, and books. So far behind that it's embarrassing.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Most likely because if he enjoyed his job, which i assume he does, he had to keep making metal gear. That combined with the pressure to continue snake's story from insane fans made it the natural fit.
He could have
A) Made Metal Gear Solid 4, and left the Metal Gear Solid 2 as is. If MGS2's story was so well told and subject to the consumers interpretations, he never would have had to mention it again.
B) Made another game in the Metal Gear universe featuring a different story and Solid Snake, remade Metal Gear, Snake before he became Foxhound, etc etc
Why are you ignoring my points? And why are you basing your argument on reading a wiki article on MGS2 and being confused? It seems you didn't put much attention into reading it if you can't remember the protagonist's name.
Yeah, you lack perspective when it comes to the Metal Gear Solid fanbase and the circumstances revolving around MGS4. Kojima absolutely detested working on MGS4 initially, it was in developmental hell for years, he didn't want to be involved with the game and initially he really wasn't. He wasn't even the initial director.
He did it was Metal Gear Solid 3 people were still pissed and sending death threats.
I agree whole-heartedly, though I haven't played Peace Walker yet. Kojima deserves every bit of ridicule he gets (and then some) for MGS4, with its fanfic-tier writing. 1-3 though have good writing if you consider Kojima as a writer of games. His writing makes for good game scenarios, compels you to keep playing, and explores interesting themes.
People always say "if Kojima was doing movies/novels he would be laughed at", but that's irrelevant. He's doing games.
He got death threats and excessive pressure from the worst parts of the MGS fanbase. He has explicitly stated in interviews that he intended for MGS2 to be ambiguous.
Rogue Agent
Banned
Here is some context:
A scene in GZ has been censored in Japan
http://www.metalgearinformer.com/?p=12976
A scene in GZ has been censored in Japan
http://www.metalgearinformer.com/?p=12976
Because your point about people being pissed off the main character was Raiden and not Solid Snake is completely unrelated to people thinking the story is overcomplicated.
People wanted to be Snake but couldn't be? Cool. What does that have to do with anything?
And don't be dense kid, I haven't just read a Wiki and gotten confused. Or did everyone who didn't understand the storyline in MGS2 just read a Wiki article and not actually play the game?
My point is that even after playing the game, and even after reading up on it, if it's still too hard to follow, the story is useless.
And that's fine, Kojima Defence Force. The games are still quality. That doesn't mean the storyline isn't convoluted and made up on the fly, and that again doesn't mean you're not allowed to enjoy it for what it is. I personally, don't. That's cool.
edit: And I think that's a shame that he was pressured into changing his story then because of all these death threats.
What that does mean is that the explanation for MGS2 was invented on the fly, many years after the game was made (because it was never meant to be explained).
Which is why it's over-complicated. And that is all I'm saying.
I disagree entirely. There are plenty of works of art that require a deeper level of thought and analysis to truly appreciate and understand than other "normal" interpretations of the medium.
It's like saying 2001: A Space Odyssey was a bad film because people didn't "get it". A work of art, no matter what the medium, should never be forced to cater to the lowest common denominator. Placing arbitrary restrictions like this on artistic expression is not a good thing.
Ever since the release of the game, people have been demanding answers to the questions it raised. Kojima did not want to answer these questions, nor did he want to be the one directing the game that did. He tried time and again to escape the series and work on something else, but was forced back to the project due to numerous circumstances.
If you'd like, this is a rather interesting read that talks about the context surrounding MGS4 and this very topic.
Kojima using the name "Alan Smithee" in the 2005 teaser for MGS4 is the most damning evidence, if you ask me. He didn't want anything to do with the project because it was a game that wasn't supposed to exist. I can't blame anyone but Konami and the fans for that. When the creator of a work makes it very clear before release, after, and even in the work itself that he wants nothing to do with it and never did, I can't blame him when it ends up being mediocre.
All I'm contesting is the notion that the series as a whole is overly complicated and that it reflects on Kojima's skill as a writer and director. I'm just trying to have a discussion with you about it.
I don't believe a writer/director should be held accountable for quality if he was forced into a project against his will. MGS4 is exactly this.
I agree.
A concept requiring deeper thought and analysis though (which people are very capable of) is a little different to Kojima's clusterfuck. (which nobody understands) though, and surely you must agree with that to an extent.
And I disagree that it's not his fault. If he didn't want the game to be made, and didn't want anything to do with it, then he simply should not have done.
His "artistic expression" should have been more important to him than the "lowest common denominator" as you put it.
As would be the case with any good artist.
I'm being dense? Are you putting effort into reading what I posted? Players bitching about not playing as a iconic hero they built up in their heads is me knocking their perception and observational skills. Those same people stating MGS2 is too complicated is a farce, the weight of their opinions on the MGS series should be nil. And I doubt you played MGS2 if you can't remember the protagonist, and if you did play it and forgot his name somehow that weakens your argument, as you weren't paying much attention to the game.
Funny how you say that Kojima defense force line, as I created these posts today:
Coffee Dog
Banned
I dont think any MGS2 defender would agree with you in this. There are plenty of people that understand MGS2. Just because you and the majority of other people do not, does not diminish it in any way as a work of art.
And in that, we disagree.
What good is art if only the small (tiny in this case) minority can appreciate and enjoy it?
The best art can be enjoyed and appreciated by everyone.
I'm now putting no effort into what youre posting anymore no, because as I've said numerous times, what you're saying is completely unrelated to what I'm saying, and you insist on trying to put words in my mouth. Read back, when did I ever say I couldn't remember the protagonist?
I disagree on the notion that MGS2 is a "clusterfuck that nobody understands". It's a very intelligent game that incited lots of intelligent discussion. That's not to say I'd talk down to people who thought it was confusing - it absolutely is when interpreted at face value.
This video is rather long so I'm not going to suggest you have to watch it, but it's interesting nonetheless and provides great insight on the game's themes and subject matter.
At the end of the day, he works for Konami, and needs to pay the bills for his family. As someone mentioned earlier, if he loves what he does he may not have had much choice.
That said, I'll agree to disagree. I don't think it was as simple a situation as you're implying.
There are plenty of people who like MGS2...
Critically MGS2 is the highest ranked game in the series, commercially its the highest selling game as well. Art is completely relative. Art will never be enjoyed and appreciated by everyone, art isn't a spoon or orgasm.
NotMyRealName
Banned
Yep
Coffee Dog
Banned
This is patently untrue in just about every single art form on the face of the earth.
Nobody liked or understood Citizen Kane when it released, and now it's hailed as one of the greatest and influential films ever made. How does that work when compared to your opinion on quality art?
I disagree with you. And that's cool.
Anecdotally, I find my opinion to be a lot, lot more common.
Me included.
From a gameplay perspective, MGS2 is very very good, and I enjoyed it a lot. As do lots of people.
I'm talking from a storyline perspective.
Side note: You have spoons in the same league as orgasms?
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