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Metal Gear Solid V's Disturbing Scenes Must 'Go to the Limit'
- Thread starter Sn4ke_911
- Start date
The scene should be basically exactly like this, but with kids.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAdniWncWu4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAdniWncWu4
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
Graphic scenes of torture and/ or child soldiers followed by a radio conversation with a mute shirtless woman about the joys of instant ramen. METAL GEAR.
It's not the actual content that people are worried about. I can assure you that they are mature enough to handle those kinds of things.
It's Kojima's ham-fisted approach to story telling that is worrying.
Simply short - he's not very good at it.
lensoftruth
Member
And the fact it's in a ott video game about nanobots, ninjas and comic book story telling
Just seems a bit silly.
eyeball_kid
Member
I think since Kojima has re-committed himself to MGS, he probably asked himself how he could elevate the series beyond its roots. Kojima wants to be taken seriously on the same level as a movie director, to produce something that has vision and impact. Will he succeed? Who knows, but I wouldn't count this out as another over-the-top MGS game. He's a very smart, talented guy, and he's one of the few game directors who could treat a taboo subject with sensitivity and intelligence.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
The benefit of the doubt is strong in this thread 
AHA-Lambda
Member
Handled well yes, it has been done there, and in Breaking Bad and Assault on Precinct 13 off the top of my head and done well each time.
but in an interactive medium it has to be very careful especially if the circumstance is under the player's control. It requires a specific touch and I don't trust Kojima with something like this.
fabricated backlash
Member
It doesn't matter how far a donkey travels, it won't become a horse.
thunder_snail
Member
I agree it will be a lot more difficult and require more care with video games compared to simpler mediums.
However, who else would go there? There just aren't gutsy enough devs out there that will touch the subject fearing public outcry, especially big devs with established franchises who have a lot on the line if their ultra expensive AAA game fails because of it. Hell, people are afraid of showing comparison videos these days because they are afraid of gaming politics.
Fuck that. I'm tired of this mentality, that "Kojima doesn't have the skill" or "Kojima is way too daft to even approach this topic". Its somehow toxic and boring at the same time. Child soldiers exist right now, they wear Spiderman or Tupac shirts and do a lot of drugs. A few of them in history have eaten the organs of their victims. The topic itself is naturally fucked tenfold. If Kojima makes people address the realities and plights of the world through gameplay that'll be fantastic.
People opting for creative stagnation because they're afraid of the final quality of said work shouldn't be catered to.
Jawmuncher
Member
We'll see how the final product turns out. MGS4 was supposed to be something similar and ended up being the goofiest game in the series. Though I can't say i'm not excited. Honestly the "going to the limit" sounds good me. Since i'm a big fan of seeing that sort of thing in media. One of the reasons I was impressed with the MW2 even if they had to cave and add an option to skip it in the end.
I agree completely. Rather see the end product on offer than say it's already a failure.
I agree completely. Rather see the end product on offer than say it's already a failure.
FrankWza
Member
That was a great interview. I'm sold. He's not stupid. I think putting out GZ now is about making money because that's what everything usually is about. But I genuinely think he cares that people get to play the new mechanics so when PP releases he gets less of the guaranteed internet complaints. He comes off as a guy who has come to terms with the fact that he is married to this series and now has the ability because of the hardware to make the game he always wanted to make. So it's kind of a reboot but faithful to MG where it needs to be. If you have not watched please watch.
But I break into a snorting, heaving laugh imagining him TRYING to be. Goddamn I really cannot wait to see MGS5's story; and for all the wrong reasons. He makes some good points though, Im just not sure of his ability is all. I haven't ever been a fan of the writing in the series. The gameplay has always carried it for me.
fabricated backlash
Member
OH I wouldn't dream of trying to inhibit him from trying to tackle this topic... but I severely doubt that he'll produce anything better than the cringeworthy cheesy stuff he's produced over his entire career. His whole hamfisted message has been: "War is bad mkaaay?" in one form or the other.
But stranger things have happened.
People saying that Kojima doesn't have the skill, are not also saying that child soldiers do not exist. On the other hand, your skill in putting words into people's mouths is world class.
You think Kojima is going to make people address the realities and plights of the world in a series with Nanomachine ninja's, dysentry soldiers and Wasp people?
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Do you consider addressing a taboo just to justify a character's "evil" nature a (quote) "VERY good reason"?
You should maybe give the man a break and judge him after you've seen the results, not before. The Child Soldier epidemic is something that very few people touch upon AT ALL in any media and should be addressed.
He dealt with it pretty well in MGS2, too.
You're putting words into my mouth, my point was bizarre tragedy is happening as we speak. There is no better or worse time in any medium to address child soldiers, waiting for one specific artist to tackle a specific subject is ill fated conceptually. As for your question I addressed that sort of thing pages back.
I wouldn't take credence with your words or doubts based on how you view art as a whole. Debate my points instead of trying to mock me, please.
In one sentence, as I still can't tell. What point are you trying to make?
edit: And for bonus points. How do I view art as a whole?
Don't deny or dismiss what an artist may attempt based on personal doubt.
You view art in a way where it should be made to please everyone. Instead of art being made to make a mental and emotional connection to any specific audience. I'm basing this point on this:
Much easier to talk about!
I think saying I'm denying his attempts is a little bit far, he's more than entitled to try and make whatever he wants.
But I am cynical that he possesses the skill, and that Metal Gear Solid, is the right series to deal with such high-strung issues.
You might agree on this example - Say Infinity Ward was trying to deal with Child Soldiers in the new Call of Duty game. Is Call of Duty the right series to deal with these subjects? Are Infinity Ward good enough to treat the subject with the subtlety it needs? I think we can both agree maybe not to both those points. In my opinion, the same applies to Kojima.
I'm more than open minded to be proved wrong, I've always enjoyed the MGS series. But I'm allowed to express my reservations also!
edit: A slight misunderstanding.
I didn't say art should be made to 'please' everyone.
I meant, it should be made so that everyone 'understands' it.
You can't make something that everybody likes. That's impossible!
I actually disagree. If that's what they want to tackle, I'd support that specific decision 100%. Would make for a much more interesting CoD title.
I imagine the censored scene is the same scene but the camera focuses on character faces instead of the act itself.
Probably, Japan's awfully finicky about these things. They even censored the torture scene from Peace Walker that was left in every other version.
And you think they'd do a good job of it, without it being exploitative and ham fisted?
Really strange. Peace Walker's torture sequence was really tame. MGS3's torture scene is brilliantly done in hindsight, since Big Boss has a bag over his head he doesn't see Sokolov being pummeled brutally. With POWS and prisoners being shown so much I imagine Big Boss will be captured and tortured at a prison camp in Phantom Pain.
I never worry about the final quality when it comes to creative decisions like this, its about supporting and backing up the artist who faces constant scrutiny and outright dismissal.
Kojima's said in numerous interviews that he knows the game is covering really serious subject matter and that he's writing it with that in mind. Cyborg Ninjas and wasp people are part of what makes Metal Gear what it is, and he said that the kind of quirkiness we're used to from the series has taken a backseat (he wants to keep it in because he doesn't want to change the identity of the game completely).
Tell me - if he heavily considered removing cardboard boxes due to the odd juxtaposition they have with the overall tone, do you really think it's fair to assume he's stupid enough to have bee people fighting child soldiers?
The benefit of the doubt is strong in this thread
Yeah funny a Japanese man can't possibly pull this off. While if you believe these forums Amy Henning is the greatest writer known to man. Kojima got the Pmc thing right in past games.
Give the guy a shot might surprise a few people.
AHA-Lambda
Member
not I'd we're potentially the ones pulling the trigger!
the way it was done in mgs 2 is different from what we're saying, the potential of child death at the hands of a player.
and I love mgs, but as someone said above, the media won't take the issue seriously in a series with an ott nature like this. I'm not just willing to give him benefit of the doubt given his history.
do you read post-modern poetry or literature?
Shouldn't artists face constant scrutiny over the quality of their work? Why is it worth supporting art that does a poor job of conveying it's intended message, simply because it includes racy material? I assure you there is no shortage of bad novels and films that are offensive for the sake of it.
How do we know Kojima is going to do a poor job conveying child soldiering if he never attempts to weave that concept and reality into gameplay?
I'd rather criticize what a artist actually does than criticize their intentions and ambitions conceptually.
But you just said you "never worry about final quality" when it comes to material like this. Which clearly implies that you don't intend to criticize what Kojima will actually do either.
And you'll notice my post referred to the scrutinization of an artist's finalized work, not ambitions.
What does worrying about something have to do with criticism? Some people are outright dismissing concepts immediately. I never said Kojima is going to knock this concept out of the park, I have high hopes and I have faith in him. I'm also not worried about the final quality of something that hasn't been released. I also will not worry about the final quality if the creative direction given beforehand excites me.
You say "Why is it worth supporting art that does a poor job of conveying it's intended message", what's the intended message of the Phantom Pain? How is it done poorly? I believe Kojima has done fantastic work regarding narrative themes for MGS 1-3, that's why I'm supporting the concepts he has for The Phantom Pain.
TheCthultist
Member
That's essentially how I feel on it. With the exception of a good chunk of Peacewalker, there are very few desicions he's ever made relating to a Metal Gear story aspect that I can really argue were outright unnecessary or even bad.... Yeah, 4 had some weird moments, but they were paid off in the end. If this scene is what it takes to drag the series into the twentifirst century, I say go for it.
Love Deterrence
Member
Yes, and based on his past work other people aren't as confident in his direction. You can't stand by your own expectations while dismissing anyone else's ability to create their own.
But usually when you and I refer to "final quality", it refers to the released product. Implying that you won't be concerned with how the game turns out, no matter how bad it might be, simply if it includes potentially offensive material.
I'm not dismissing other people's expectations, I'm questioning them, just as mine have been questioned. This conversation feels like an attempted witch hunt against me and there's no real debate here, just semantics and obvious observations.
What do you think about the concept at hand? Of child soldiers being part of the narrative and possibly gameplay?
The Silver
Member
Kojima said before that his taboo game could even cause him to leave the industry, he's going to take this game very seriously.
http://www.1up.com/news/kojima-leave-industry-game-wrong
MGS2 gambled the fate the series, it with seems MGSV Kojima is going to gamble his career itself. Honestly it's a big reason why I'm excited, the ambitious MGS2 era Kojima is coming back.
http://www.1up.com/news/kojima-leave-industry-game-wrong
MGS2 gambled the fate the series, it with seems MGSV Kojima is going to gamble his career itself. Honestly it's a big reason why I'm excited, the ambitious MGS2 era Kojima is coming back.
Schweinehund
Member
Kojima floats incredibly close to Molyneux territory sometimes. The difference is Kojima fans are hundred times more vicious.
Love Deterrence
Member
Metal Gear Solid 5: Ground Zeroes: Ask an IGN Editor Anything
(Wasn't sure if this had been posted. Sorry, if old!)
Think about it this way even if it didn't do a good job explaining the issue it's still worth it because COD is a huge IP and many people buy it year after year. So even if just one person took that message to heart and decided to donate money for ex child soilder's or even start a group of their own, wouldn't that make it worth it?
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