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Metroid Prime designer doubts Switch Trilogy port will happen, third game's controls would require "herculean effort" to port

cireza

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“It was straightforward to update MP1 and 2 to Motion controls, but converting MP3 to normal controls would be a herculean effort, as it is scripted very specifically using volumetric triggers to detect the motion in precise manners to do specific switches, and the bosses are tuned to take into account the ease of gestural aiming.”
I think the guy is right. Metroid Prime 3 has a very fast and precise aiming solution because of the motion controls. Even tough the Wiimote had some lag, Metroid Prime 3 is in my opinion one of the games that implemented them the best. It was pretty smooth and accurate.

You can always replace this by the lock-on feature of the previous games, but there are still instances where it might not fully do the job. And you have to stay still to aim manually in Metroid Prime 1 and 2. So it is clear that some parts of the games would be problematic and would need to be redone differently.

He is not saying that it is impossible. However a lot of work is required and I can understand this.
 
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Woopah

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Nintendo could have avoided a lot of this trouble by including a better tracking/recentering solution in the joycons in addition to the gyros. It would have had to be expensive either. Even a cheap camera in the Switch itself and a couple of IR LEDs built into strategic spots on the controllers would have done the trick (The Wii, but reversed). I'm glad they had a strong, cohesive vision for the hardware, and it's certainly paid off for them, but for pennies they could have made BC and virtual console much more feasible.

Oh well. Here's hoping the Switch's successor has better tracking, if only to enable VR.
I guess they didn't think it was worth doing for the sake of a couple of Wii games. That would also mean you'd have to set up the dock in a way that meant the Switch itself would be facing you right?
 

Alexios

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You can always replace this by the lock-on feature of the previous games.
It already has the lock on feature. A godsent because actually turning speed was dreadful so with the lock on you could circle strafe enemies just as before. And then you had the option of maintaining lock on but moving the crosshair around to aim at different body parts/weak points.

Nothing in the whole game is too demanding for dual analog controls to do that job (never mind gyro, though I'm personally not a fan), if they're actually modernised dual analog controls and not how they were/felt in the original Prime & 2 with the GC nipple right stick.

Best and smoothest Wii FPS controls are in Red Steel 2. COD games too but RS2 is 60fps so feels that much better. Even though its whole point is the sword fighting, gunslinging was too good.
 
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Zannegan

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I guess they didn't think it was worth doing for the sake of a couple of Wii games. That would also mean you'd have to set up the dock in a way that meant the Switch itself would be facing you right?
Yep, but it was always intended that way with that sliver of screen visible above the dock for charging information and updates. It would have the added benefit of working in tabletop mode too.

I see your point about it being just "a couple of Wii games," but that's only true in retrospect. Had better tracking been included from the outset, everything from BotW (the ball puzzles of which had some of the worst, most frustrating drift I've encountered in a game) to Mario Party would have reaped the benefits. *shrug*
 

Kokoloko85

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Too much effort for Nintendo lol

They prefer riding off Wii U ports lol. Probably why they didnt do a wind waker hd port yet cause of the map lol.

I love Nintendo but they are such a lazy company at times and never drop there prices. Bring back humble Wii U Nintendo.
 

Wonko_C

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Good. Give it to Armature (former Retro Studios devs) so they give it the RE4VR Edition treatment on Quest 2.
 
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yurinka

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Well, obviously it wouldn't be like many Nintendo 'remasters' where they basically simply put a game rom into an emulator. It would require some effort to adapt it, but it isn't something that with time and resources could be addressed. Look at people like Bluepoint, they remake games that use obsolete engines, change the gameplay and everything.

If Nintendo would want to do it they would do it. But seems that instead of reinvesting the money they earn into making more games they prefer to keep it into Kimishima's pocket as profits.

They probably won't do it because it's not worth the effort, the original MPT didn't even sell a million iirc.
Sure, but Nintendo has a monster marketing machine and since they have a small amount of big seller games every year, the main games get way more attention and sales. In Switch sales aren't spread into the yearly CoD, GTA, FIFA, Assassin's Creed and so on so eyes go into the main excluives. And if there aren't enough new ones, then the old ones. In addition to this, now Switch has a way bigger userbase and will continue selling well for a handful years.

So as happened with many other ported games, MPT could sell way better on Switch than it did in previous platforms.
 
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GigiFusc

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“Rebuilding the hundreds of interaction sets in MP3 alone, not to mention retuning the game play to take in the slower engagement pacing of conventional controls would probably take a year with a 4-5 person team full time by itself.”


so... not that hard then?
 

Isleofsancroy

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Did Metroid Prime 3 deeply integrate motion controls? I've always heard you could play it with a normal controller.
 

V4skunk

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It doesn't make sense when splatoon2 has motion control. It can't be that hard to do.
 

KungFucius

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Super Mario Galaxy 2 shows us Nintendo doesn't do hard ports and doesn't care if people are disappointed. So why not Metroid Prime 1 + 2 HD for 60 bucks?

Personally I really liked 3 with the motion controls and was really let down by the fact that they didn't make more games like that for the Wii.
 

JSoup

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What's interesting to me is a Retro dev said up and down two years ago that the games had already been converted for Switch use and they just needed the OK to assemble into a collection.
 

RoadHazard

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Yeah, gyro pointing is not even remotely as good as IR if you're gonna be doing it all the time (as is the case with MP3). Gyro drifts like a Ridge Racer car, and needs constant recentering. It would suck in a game like this. BotW, the Mario ports, etc, work decently because you really only need to point at something every now and then. When it's your main input next to moving, it simply needs to be better than what the Switch can do.
 
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RoadHazard

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Nintendo could have avoided a lot of this trouble by including a better tracking/recentering solution in the joycons in addition to the gyros. It would have had to be expensive either. Even a cheap camera in the Switch itself and a couple of IR LEDs built into strategic spots on the controllers would have done the trick (The Wii, but reversed). I'm glad they had a strong, cohesive vision for the hardware, and it's certainly paid off for them, but for pennies they could have made BC and virtual console much more feasible.

Oh well. Here's hoping the Switch's successor has better tracking, if only to enable VR.

That wouldn't really work. If you had a camera on the Switch and IR LEDs on the controllers, you could track where the controllers are, but not really where they are pointing (not with any decent accuracy anyway). For pointing to really work the camera has to be in the controller.
 
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01011001

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Yeah, gyro pointing is not even remotely as good as IR if you're gonna be doing it all the time (as is the case with MP3). Gyro drifts like a Ridge Racer car, and needs constant recentering. It would suck in a game like this. BotW, the Mario ports, etc, work decently because you really only need to point at something every now and then. When it's your main input next to moving, it simply needs to be better than what the Switch can do.

that's simply not true. gyro is way more precise and granular. also reentering is a small price to pay for more precision and no issues when angled to far to the side.

also drifting can be mitigated really well if done correctly. my old TC had a remote with a gyro pointer and that thing didn't drift and was super precise as well. if done well it is FAR bettre than that fucking IR shit
 
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RoadHazard

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that's simply not true. gyro is way more precise and granular. also reentering is a small price to pay for more precision and no issues when angled to far to the side.

It may be more granular, but it will always drift, making it terrible for reliable pointing. That's why all good VR solutions use a combination of visual tracking and motion sensing. Using only the latter is never good enough.
 

01011001

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It may be more granular, but it will always drift, making it terrible for reliable pointing. That's why all good VR solutions use a combination of visual tracking and motion sensing. Using only the latter is never good enough.

not true, I edited my post with an example.

drifting will always happen but it can be optimized to be so small that you will never notice it really. also they could have a hybrid solution. normal dual analog FPS controls and as soon as you hold, say, ZL you have a gyro pointer. this is also your way to recenter.

I am thinking GoldenEye, Perfect Dark, TimeSplitters-esque aiming.

 
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RoadHazard

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not true, I edited my post with an example.

drifting will always happen but it can be optimized to be so small that you will never notice it really. also they could have a hybrid solution. normal dual analog FPS controls and as soon as you hold, say, ZL you have a gyro pointer. this is also your way to recenter.

I am thinking GoldenEye, Perfect Dark, TimeSplitters-esque aiming.

Sure, but then they would pretty drastically be changing how MP3 controls. But yes, that's how BotW and others do it, which works well there because you're only using gyro pointing in short bursts (although it will noticeably drift when just shooting at some enemies for ten seconds).

Your example isn't really relevant for the Switch. It is what it is. Gyro drift is usually compensated for using magnometer readings, but the Switch joycons don't have that, so. And it's still not as reliable as virtual tracking. Again, the only way to have a very reliable all-around solution is through a combination.
 
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01011001

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Sure, but then they would pretty drastically be changing how MP3 controls. But yes, that's how BotW and others do it, which works well there because you're only using gyro pointing in short bursts (although it will noticeably drift when just shooting at some enemies for ten seconds).

dude, millions of people play Splatoon just fine with gyro ON at all times. works absolutely fine, is way better than any other method of aiming with a controller, including IR sensor crap, and it can be further optimized if needed
 

RoadHazard

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dude, millions of people play Splatoon just fine with gyro ON at all times. works absolutely fine, is way better than any other method of aiming with a controller, including IR sensor crap, and it can be further optimized if needed

It's objectively worse than IR in certain ways, but better in others (not being limited by what a camera can see).
 

01011001

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It's objectively worse than IR in certain ways, but better in others (not being limited by what a camera can see).

the automatic re-centering is literally the only advantage, and it's a really weak one. drifting is absolutely no issue. drifting 1 pixel to the left every 2 seconds is not gonna ruin your aim. and you will only even notice it whenever you hold your hand completely still, which is almost never.

having a button to re-center is not the end of the world. people do that on PC every 2 seconds when they play a game on a mouse. you lift your hand and recenter, didn't stop anyone from using mice.

which reminds me, how comes that no gyro aim game ever implemented a button that acts like lifting up the mouse in a PC game, meaning temporarily deactivating gyro so you can re-center your hand... you always have to awkwardly use the right stick to fight against your own arm lol.
on PC I always set up a button that triggers that, but no game that has gyro aim implemented ever did that... fucking weird, makes you think about how much devs actually think about their controller implementations... meaning, not that much from the looks of it... seems like a super obvious thing to include, at least as an option
 
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RoadHazard

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the automatic re-centering is literally the only advantage, and it's a really weak one. drifting is absolutely no issue drifting 1 pixel to the left every 2 seconds is not gonna ruin your aim. and you will only even notice it whenever you hold your hand completely still, which is almost never.

having a button to re-center is not the end of the world. people do that on PC every 2 seconds when they play a game on a mouse. you lift your hand and recenter, didn't stop anyone from using mice.

which reminds me, how comes that no gyro aim game ever implemented a button that acts like lifting up the mouse in a PC game, meaning temporarily deactivating gyro so you can re-center your hand... you always have to awkwardly use the right stick to fight against your own arm lol.
on PC I always set up a button that triggers that, but no game that has gyro aim implemented ever did that... fucking weird, makes you think about how much devs actually think about their controller implementations... meaning, but that much... seems like a super obvious thing to include

Drifting is HORRIBLE for games where reliable pointing is needed, and a Joycon drifts WAY more than 1 pixel every 2 seconds. It really annoyed me in the Galaxy port, and that's not even a game where that's a primary input method. I would not want to play MP3 like that if it was just ported over with the controls left intact, it would need a solution like the one you mentioned where pointing is enabled by holding a button. But then they would need to remap other things as well. Which is the point, it would not be a simple porting job.

Having a recenter button is an undesirable workaround, and a pretty annoying one. And it's really not the same as using a mouse at all. A mouse is a relative input device, pointing is (or is supposed to be) absolute. IR is absolute, since it has a fixed reference point, gyro is relative (it senses rotation, not direction).
 
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01011001

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Drifting is HORRIBLE for games where reliable pointing is needed, and a Joycon drifts WAY more than 1 pixel every 2 seconds. It really annoyed me in the Galaxy port, and that's not even a game where that's a primary input method. I would not want to play MP3 like that if it was just ported over with the controls left intact, it would need a solution like the one you mentioned where pointing is enabled by holding a button. But then they would need to remap other things as well. Which is the point, it would not be a simple porting job.

Having a recenter button is an undesirable workaround, and a pretty annoying one. And it's really not the same as using a mouse at all. A mouse is a relative input device, pointing is (or is supposed to be) absolute. IR is absolute, since it has a fixed reference point, gyro is relative (it senses rotation, not direction).

gyro aiming is always HIGHLY dependent on how much work the devs put into it. it can reach from perfect (Splatoon 1), to good (Splatoon 2), to servicable (Warframe) all the way to "DID THEY EVEN TRY? WTF?" (Fortnite)
when Samsung can manage to have a nearly perfect gyro pointer in their cheap ass TV remote from 4-5 years ago, I think Nintendo can figure out how to do it in one of their games.

a well made gyro pointer doesn't drift more than a few pixels every other second.
 
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MagiusNecros

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I don't think MPT will sell on it's own. It would be better to bundle it with MP4.
 

Griffon

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Nintendo already shipped an emulated port of Mario Galaxy. So, no, it won't be hard.
 

01011001

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Nintendo already shipped an emulated port of Mario Galaxy. So, no, it won't be hard.

uhm... they also will release Skyward sword with button+stcks only controls... and that game was a posterchild for motion controls

Mario Galaxy worked well in emulators for ages without any modification of the game whatsoever. that was easy as hell to do
 
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Zannegan

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That wouldn't really work. If you had a camera on the Switch and IR LEDs on the controllers, you could track where the controllers are, but not really where they are pointing (not with any decent accuracy anyway). For pointing to really work the camera has to be in the controller.
True, you'd have to have three points of reference on the face of the controller and be able to measure the distance between them super-accurately. Hmm...

I suppose you could do both, for cheap positional and angular tracking. What boggles my mind is that they actually put an IR camera in the joycon, just facing the wrong way. They could have put it behind R1 since the Wii remote only had one trigger, but that limits its use in Switch games.
 
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Bungie said it would be impossible to add online to CE but 343 found a way. This is just hype for the eventual trilogy collection thats in the works.
 

Cutty Flam

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By the time the Metroid Prime Trilogy could be ready, there might be close to 100 million Nintendo Switches sold worldwide. Would be the perfect appetizer before the release of Metroid Prime 4, could be released the same year as the sequel to BOTW. There's a lot of potential for generating hype, increasing sales and generating buzz for Metroid Prime 4 so I cant really see Nintendo passing up an opportunity like this because one game needs some figuring out

Wii U sold like 13.5 million copies that's probably why MPT sold less than a million. Nobody wanted anything to do with the Wii name anymore except die hard Nintendo fans. Now that the Switch is gunning from every angle there's not a doubt in my mind that Nintendo is going for it. I expect the trilogy 100% it's just a matter of when...

If Super Mario 3D All-Stars sold 9+ million copies then Metroid Prime Trilogy will sell a million easy I'm thinking
 
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They recently announced Skyward Sword for the switch, managed to convert the controls to standard, and people thought that was never going to happen. Just find someone creative enough to make it happen.
Well he didnt say because of motion controls, but the way they programmed motion controls. So. But Crash remakes was built from scratch so. They dont have to port the games.
 

RoadHazard

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Well he didnt say because of motion controls, but the way they programmed motion controls. So. But Crash remakes was built from scratch so. They dont have to port the games.

Nintendo doing proper remakes? That'd be the day.

(Yes, I know they did for the N64 Zeldas on 3DS, but there's been nothing since unless I'm forgetting something.)
 

Shaqazooloo

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By the time the Metroid Prime Trilogy could be ready, there might be close to 100 million Nintendo Switches sold worldwide. Would be the perfect appetizer before the release of Metroid Prime 4, could be released the same year as the sequel to BOTW. There's a lot of potential for generating hype, increasing sales and generating buzz for Metroid Prime 4 so I cant really see Nintendo passing up an opportunity like this because one game needs some figuring out

Wii U sold like 13.5 million copies that's probably why MPT sold less than a million. Nobody wanted anything to do with the Wii name anymore except die hard Nintendo fans. Now that the Switch is gunning from every angle there's not a doubt in my mind that Nintendo is going for it. I expect the trilogy 100% it's just a matter of when...

If Super Mario 3D All-Stars sold 9+ million copies then Metroid Prime Trilogy will sell a million easy I'm thinking
I wasnt talking about the Wii U release, MPT sold less than 1 million on Wii.
 

RoadHazard

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gyro aiming is always HIGHLY dependent on how much work the devs put into it. it can reach from perfect (Splatoon 1), to good (Splatoon 2), to servicable (Warframe) all the way to "DID THEY EVEN TRY? WTF?" (Fortnite)
when Samsung can manage to have a nearly perfect gyro pointer in their cheap ass TV remote from 4-5 years ago, I think Nintendo can figure out how to do it in one of their games.

a well made gyro pointer doesn't drift more than a few pixels every other second.

You can't overcome the inherent flaws in cheap gyros (like the ones in every controller and phone) just by being a good programmer, unless you have some absolute form of tracking to use as a reference point (like how SS on Wii to used IR to auto-recenter the gyro sword controls). Switch doesn't have any way to do this. You can't code your way around gyro drift itself, because by the very nature of drift you can't know that it's happening.
 

Protocol7

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I really really want my Metroid Prime Trilogy fix on Switch... stop the bullshit and release it already...
I thought the trilogy was ready since last year or something?

DON'T MESS WITH US FFS! (sorry caps)
 

Cutty Flam

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I wasnt talking about the Wii U release, MPT sold less than 1 million on Wii.
Can you use a standard controller with the MPT on Wii? That is another factor that I think might have hindered so many from purchasing, if there was only one way to play it. I love Nintendo, but the Wii motions controls were lame tbh
 
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Shaqazooloo

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Can you use a standard controller with the MPT on Wii? That is another factor that I think might have hindered so many from purchasing, if there was only one way to play it. I love Nintendo, but the Wii motions controls were lame tbh
It was all motion controls but aside from the third game I heard generally positive comments about the controls in the first 2.
 
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RoyalLaFlame

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Seeing some replies here it seems that Metroid Prime doesn't sell anything at all. Is that true? Genuinely asking.


I still have the trilogy on the Wii back in my home country. Love that trilogy to death and really hope they release it for the switch.
 

GymWolf

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Yeah, asking nintendo to spend money and manpower on a port once in their life, what we were thinking...
 
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Shaqazooloo

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Seeing some replies here it seems that Metroid Prime doesn't sell anything at all. Is that true? Genuinely asking.


I still have the trilogy on the Wii back in my home country. Love that trilogy to death and really hope they release it for the switch.
Eh, Prime 1 sold well, at 2.84 million
Prime 2 got 1.10 million
Prime 3 was 1.41 million

It's not bad but not great either.
 
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mcjmetroid

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Eh, Prime 1 sold well, at 2.84 million
Prime 2 got 1.10 million
Prime 3 was 1.41 million

It's not bad but not great either.
Different times.

I believe that if they released a Metroid Prime 4 and it was just as good.
Then it would be a much bigger hit than the previous 3.
There is a lot more Nintendo fandom now than there was back then if that makes sense. Smash Bros has become an enormous hit and people are now very famiiar with Samus as a character.

As for the trilogy:
I was kinda proven right here. They don't want to put the effort into rereleasing the game... if it's a trilogy
but they cannot seperate them into different packages without a heap of controversy because it was a trilogy package at one time.
In the end Nintendo just looked at it ( and even with the sales you posted) and decided Fuck it it's not worth it.

I do think the trilogy would sell very well if the correct maketing was put behind it.
They're never going to do this in trilogy form.
 
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