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Mexico i love you but WTF?

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I thought half the problem was that the armed forces of Mexico can barely stand up to the Cartels in firepower. Didn't they have some shootouts near Acapulco some odd years ago?

Basically, the Mexican Army/armed forces are outgunned and the internal corruption going on isn't exactly helping things. So they're essentially screwed unless they can get their shit together.

As for the whole Revolution talk, it sounds easy in concept, but ridiculous in execution.
Standing up to somebody with an AK-47 vs. *insert weapon* won't end well in most cases.
They're much more armed and ruthless than most people would ever be.
 
Ultratech said:
I thought half the problem was that the armed forces of Mexico can barely stand up to the Cartels in firepower. Didn't they have some shootouts near Acapulco some odd years ago?

Basically, the Mexican Army/armed forces are outgunned and the internal corruption going on isn't exactly helping things. So they're essentially screwed unless they can get their shit together.

As for the whole Revolution talk, it sounds easy in concept, but ridiculous in execution.
Standing up to somebody with an AK-47 vs. *insert weapon* won't end well in most cases.
They're much more armed and ruthless than most people would ever be.

It was me saying the Revolution stuff, I know it wasn't the best example. Also I agree that it wouldn't be easy for the population to win without having guns, but why not overturn your laws and let the population get some defense for themselves?
 
Ultratech said:
I thought half the problem was that the armed forces of Mexico can barely stand up to the Cartels in firepower. Didn't they have some shootouts near Acapulco some odd years ago?

Basically, the Mexican Army/armed forces are outgunned and the internal corruption going on isn't exactly helping things. So they're essentially screwed unless they can get their shit together.


As for the whole Revolution talk, it sounds easy in concept, but ridiculous in execution.
Standing up to somebody with an AK-47 vs. *insert weapon* won't end well in most cases.
They're much more armed and ruthless than most people would ever be.

Not precisely. The drug cartels do have a lot of weapons, but they are inexpert. Usually when there is a shooting between the Army / Marines vs drug cartels, you see 10, 15 or 20 bad guys killed and 0 soldiers killed and a few injured.

Problem is, there are thousands of guys involved with the crime, and it's hard to get rid of all of them.
 
njean777 said:
Not our problem, shouldn't have took the guns away from citizens and let these criminals come into power. They could overturn the gun laws and let the population protect themselves by buying some. Obviously its an extreme case, but this is what can happen when the population is not allowed to freely have guns.

Yeah, widespread access to guns will solve the problem, of course. I get US history and legislation concerning guns, believe me, I get how it is your "right". It wouldn't work in Mexico, there is no "gun culture" here and I am glad it is kept that way, thank you.

Ultratech said:
I thought half the problem was that the armed forces of Mexico can barely stand up to the Cartels in firepower. Didn't they have some shootouts near Acapulco some odd years ago?


Not really. The armed forces are suitably equipped and trained to fight cartels. It is money and corruption that is the issue. Many cops, ex-military, politicians and average citizens find it extremely profitable to help the Narco, so they do.
 
magicstop said:
Go listen to some of the videos and accounts of farmers being exploited for their products to be exported to the US; go listen to the workers who are exploited, subjected to slave wages, and ultimately suffer hugely all for the NAFTA and the US's benefit. Tell me they are fucking lovingly selling their stuff.
Yes, free trade hurt mexico. Free trade hurt small american farmers too. Lifting tariffs (which occurred gradually for 8 years and mexico did nothing) hurt mexico. Mexico is a member of Nafta by the way. But wtf does have anything to do with the thread? What does that have to do with being scared to go outside, the mass murders and absolute corruption?

If you were given 8 years to adapt to free trade and do nothing, again, how is that anyone else's responsibility but your own? When the subsidies are being siphoned off by bureaucrats and officials...whose fault is that?

Those farmers, more or less, came to america for a better life. Good for them. Now, about mexico...
 
inky said:
Yeah, widespread access to guns will solve the problem, of course. I get US history and legislation concerning guns, believe me, I get how it is your "right". It wouldn't work in Mexico, there is no "gun culture" here and I am glad it is kept that way, thank you.
Plus, as the US should know, just becauyse you have a gun does not mean you know how to use it.

They would be killed by guns before they could be trained to use their own guns.
 
Evening Musuko said:
You do realize that it's practically impossible to acquire guns legally in Mexico? What do they fight the cartels with? Sticks and stones?
Exactly, the cartels are armed to the teeth, guns coming ilegally from the US below the US border nose just like the drugs go in the opossite direction, of course the US is to blame here when they keep letting millions of weapons to flow freely towards Mexico every year. You think cartels don't have some US authorities in their payroll too?

If i wanted to get a gun i literally have no idea were to go to find one, there are no gun shops here like in the US.
 
When i went to Cancun 2-3 years ago, i never thought it was that bad in this country. Or was mexico without much problems back then? I don't really feel like going back soon with all those terrible stories.
 
Bisnic said:
When i went to Cancun 2-3 years ago, i never thought it was that bad in this country. Or was mexico without much problems back then? I don't really feel like going back soon with all those terrible stories.

The war started in 2006 when our new President was elected (the war exploded around 2008). But Cancun is pretty safe (along with a lot more cities).

The worst parts are the states and cities near the border with the USA.
 
Bisnic said:
When i went to Cancun 2-3 years ago, i never thought it was that bad in this country. Or was mexico without much problems back then? I don't really feel like going back soon with all those terrible stories.
It's not a warzone, except from some cities the rest of the country is ok but you still see news about guys showing with their head cut off at times. I went to Cancun for vacation two weeks ago and it's as safe as ever, still last week i read about a drug lord being killed in a restaurant in broad daylight, that was in downtown Cancun but still.

In my state (Tabasco) the problem is mainly the kidnapings, everybody has a story of someone they know being kidnaped and you read about people being kidnaped almost daily in some of towns as well as our neighbor state Chiapas.
 
alterno69 said:
Exactly, the cartels are armed to the teeth, guns coming ilegally from the US below the US border nose just like the drugs go in the opossite direction, of course the US is to blame here when they keep letting millions of weapons to flow freely towards Mexico every year. You think cartels don't have some US authorities in their payroll too?

If i wanted to get a gun i literally have no idea were to go to find one, there are no gun shops here like in the US.

You can get a gun legally in Mexico, but you have to to to Mexico City and apply for a permit from the SEDENA, who will check your background for penal antecedents, and they even will make you take psychometric tests; the whole ordeal lasts about 3-5 days. If you meet the requirements they give you a legal permit and will allow you to buy selected guns from an authorized seller, which has comparable prices to those you find in US gun stores.
 
alterno69 said:
Exactly, the cartels are armed to the teeth, guns coming ilegally from the US below the US border nose just like the drugs go in the opossite direction, of course the US is to blame here when they keep letting millions of weapons to flow freely towards Mexico every year. You think cartels don't have some US authorities in their payroll too?

Yup.

Former Mayor Eddie Espinoza and former Trustee Blas Gutierrez have both pleaded guilty in the case, in which prosecutors allege the Columbus-based group bought more than 200 weapons from a Chaparral dealer and smuggled them to Mexico in a deal with La Linea, the main enforcement arm of the Juarez drug-smuggling cartel.

alterno69 said:
If i wanted to get a gun i literally have no idea were to go to find one, there are no gun shops here like in the US.

The only gun store in the country is in Mexico City which is operated by the Federal Goverment,
 
inky said:
Yeah, widespread access to guns will solve the problem, of course. I get US history and legislation concerning guns, believe me, I get how it is your "right". It wouldn't work in Mexico, there is no "gun culture" here and I am glad it is kept that way, thank you.




Not really. The armed forces are suitably equipped and trained to fight cartels. It is money and corruption that is the issue. Many cops, ex-military, politicians and average citizens find it extremely profitable to help the Narco, so they do.
Sorry if you dont want a gun culture, but you seem to have one there now whether you like it or not. It's fine to not like guns but when they are used for protection there is nothing wrong with them.
 
alterno69 said:
It's not a warzone, except from some cities the rest of the country is ok but you still see news about guys showing with their head cut off at times. I went to Cancun for vacation two weeks ago and it's as safe as ever, still last week i read about a drug lord being killed in a restaurant in broad daylight, that was in downtown Cancun but still.

In my state (Tabasco) the problem is mainly the kidnapings, everybody has a story of someone they know being kidnaped and you read about people being kidnaped almost daily in some of towns as well as our neighbor state Chiapas.
Who are they kidnapping and why?
 
alterno69 said:
It's not a warzone, except from some cities the rest of the country is ok but you still see news about guys showing with their head cut off at times. I went to Cancun for vacation two weeks ago and it's as safe as ever, still last week i read about a drug lord being killed in a restaurant in broad daylight, that was in downtown Cancun but still.

In my state (Tabasco) the problem is mainly the kidnapings, everybody has a story of someone they know being kidnaped and you read about people being kidnaped almost daily in some of towns as well as our neighbor state Chiapas.
how bad is Chiapas?
 
Zeke said:
how bad is Chiapas?

The biggest problem with Chiapas is that it's border with Guatemala. So... all the guys from Central and South America who wants to go to the USA illegally, they have to go though Chiapas. Once there, the cartels ask them money to let them go or they kill them / kidnap them.

That's one of the reasons why the illegal immigration is slowing down to the USA... they are now kidnapping all those guys (both Mexicans who want to go illegally to the USA and guys from Guatemala and other countries) and they ask them for money or they force them to join the cartels (in part because our Army has killed thousands and thousands of them, so they need people).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Tamaulipas_massacre
 
njean777 said:
Sorry if you dont want a gun culture, but you seem to have one there now whether you like it or not.

No we don't. Narcos have guns, the army has guns... hardly a gun culture. Do you think guns could have prevented the news from the OP from happening? Do average citizens with guns prevent terrorist attacks from happening? When there is a madman on a killing spree in your average US city, is it a concerned citizen with a gun usually the one who steps up and takes him down?

It's fine to not like guns but when they are used for protection there is nothing wrong with them.

Yeah, and that is where I realize you don't see the real problem. We aren't protecting our homes from getting robbed. These attacks are perpetrated by heavily armed groups (with military class guns, rifles and grenades) on the general population almost at random. No amount of "guns for the people" would've prevented this.

Easy access to guns would just mean another place for the ones who already have them (or money) to get them. Never would this scenario bring less violence, which is what we really want.
 
Fernando Rocker said:
The biggest problem with Chiapas is that it's border with Guatemala. So... all the guys from Central and South America who wants to go to the USA illegally, they have to go though Chiapas. Once there, the cartels ask them money to let them go or they kill them / kidnap them.

That's one of the reasons why the illegal immigration is slowing down to the USA... they are now kidnapping all those guys (both Mexicans who want to go illegally to the USA and guys from Guatemala and other countries) and they ask them for money or they force them to join the cartels (in part because our Army has killed thousands and thousands of them, so they need people).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Tamaulipas_massacre
how well does that go over with EZLN? I'm guessing they are pretty powerless to stop it?
 
But I've heard on the official government-sponsored radio ads (in English, mind you) that everything is going just swell!
 
Zeke said:
how well does that go over with EZLN? I'm guessing they are pretty powerless to stop it?

This . . . I'm wondering how they are functioning with the cartels in operation. Effectively, the cartels are doing what EZLN wanted to do, in so far as local control, but more effectively and to horrific ends. Whereas EZLN wanted/wants good lives for the indigenous and control of the means of production for the people, etc., the cartels want control of the people, flow of money, etc., and use ultraviolent means to insure it.
 
Zeke said:
how well does that go over with EZLN? I'm guessing they are pretty powerless to stop it?

Yes... they are powerless against drug cartels.

I know the USA is afraid of Al Qaeda and all those terrorists groups, but these drug cartels are way way more powerful than them. I'm pretty sure.

The Zetas are the real terrorists of this continent.
 
Fernando Rocker said:
Yes... they are powerless against drug cartels.

I know the USA is afraid of Al Qaeda and all those terrorists groups, but these drug cartels are way way more powerful than them. I'm pretty sure.

The Zetas are the real terrorists of this continent.
thats what angers me so much. People get all up in arms about things happening on the other side of the world but the things going on next door no one seems to care about.
 
I'm always amazed that this shit is going on in Mexico and nobody in the US really seems to give a shit about it. If I was President I'd have deployed the military there quite some time ago (with Mexican consent obviously).
 
Zeke said:
thats what angers me so much. People get all up in arms about things happening on the other side of the world but the things going on next door no one seems to care about.

Again, bad neighbors. Terrorists in the middle east represent both a real threat to the US (fairly minimal in my estimation), as well as a huge PERCEIVED threat (thanks to careful reinforcement through talking head politicians and homogeneous media offerings), and therefore receives our focus. The Mexican drug cartels don't offer any real threat to the US as an entity, and thus get ignored for the most part, even though they are causing huge suffering and fear to our direct neighbor, and are in existence in large part due to our policies and consumption (drugs, food, and otherwise).
 
Emerson said:
I'm always amazed that this shit is going on in Mexico and nobody in the US really seems to give a shit about it. If I was President I'd have deployed the military there quite some time ago (with Mexican consent obviously).

Why would the US deploy troops into Mexico?
 
Dunlop said:
Why would the US deploy troops into Mexico?

How else do you propose to defeat the cartels? They need to be destroyed at this point, it's too out of control and the Mexican military clearly can't handle it. No policy or legislation will solve anything.
 
njean777 said:
It was me saying the Revolution stuff, I know it wasn't the best example. Also I agree that it wouldn't be easy for the population to win without having guns, but why not overturn your laws and let the population get some defense for themselves?

njean777, first off you need to brush up on your history. If it wasn't for France's full support, America would not have won the Revolutionary war. They funded and armed us and their naval blockade was crucial. I'm not going to go into it in detail because this is not the thread for that but seriously comparing what's going on in Mexico to something that happened in a different era is ridiculous.

second of all, The US is ABSOLUTELY responsible for at least some of the mess Mexico is in right now. Ever heard of Operation Fast and Furious? A botched operation in which 2000 guns sold to drug cartels were lost? That is an example of a direct way the US has affected Mexico.

Who funds the cartels? We pretty much do by buying their drugs. It's not that hard to understand.

I can't imagine what it's like there right now. Imagine if the criminals in the US have more money and more firepower than our government.
 
Operations said:
Cooperation is at an all-time high actually, with CIA operatives and military vets already operating in secret posts:

U.S. Widens Role in Mexican Fight
U.S. Widens Role in Battle Against Mexican Drug Cartels

I mean, that's nice and all, but I feel like we should do more. If we'd invested even close to the military effort we put into Iraq into Mexico instead I bet we could do a lot of good. And I think it's a cause more people could support too. We need bombing runs on cartel mansions and shit.
 
Emerson said:
How else do you propose to defeat the cartels? They need to be destroyed at this point, it's too out of control. No policy or legislation will solve anything.

I don't care what country you live in, deploying foreign troops onto your soil will not endear the population and could actually make the issues worse.
 
Dunlop said:
I don't care what country you live in, deploying foreign troops onto your soil will not endear the population and could actually make the issues worse.

Did you miss the part where I said "with Mexican consent"? I'm not a foreign policy expert so maybe this wouldn't happen. But obviously I wouldn't invade Mexico for Christ's sake.
 
MexicoÂ’s President Vows Continued Fight in Wake of Casino Attack


MEXICO CITY — President Felipe Calderón on Friday called for three days of national mourning and promised to redouble the fight against crime gangs after 52 people were killed in a fire Thursday at a casino in northern Mexico set by armed men.

In a nationally televised address, Mr. CalderĂłn called the attack the most serious against the civilian population in his term, which began in 2006 with a crackdown on drug cartels. Other massacres have occurred, as evidenced by mass graves, but it is unclear if the victims found in those graves came from one attack or more.

Mr. CalderĂłn promised to send more federal forces to Monterrey and surrounding Nuevo Leon State, though there is already a very large contingent of military and federal police who were sent there after previous attacks.

“It is evident we are not facing common criminals, we are facing true terrorists who have surpassed not only the limits of the law but basic common sense and respect for life,” he said, his voice tinged with anger and invoking the specter of narco-terrorism, a concept Mexican officials generally play down.

Mr. CalderĂłn also reiterated calls for the Mexican congress to enact reforms he has proposed to improve security and for the United States to reduce its consumption of drugs and sale of guns, many of which end up used in attacks in Mexico.

“We are neighbors, we are allies, we are friends, but you too share responsibility,” he said.

A security camera captured video of men in four vehicles pulling up to the front of Casino Royale in Monterrey, an important business and industrial hub 150 miles from the Texas border that has emerged in the past year as one of the most violent cities in the country.

The attackers spilled out of their vehicles, some dashing into the casino while others, holding what appeared to be assault rifles, waved people away as city traffic carried on usual. In less than a few minutes, thick black smoke and flames blocked other images from the camera.

The authorities said the men spread flammable liquid all around the interior and lit it, causing flames and smoke to quickly engulf the building as dozens of people inside stampeded in terror.

“People were falling down,” a witness told the El Norte newspaper in Monterrey. “We couldn’t get out through the main entrance because the armed men were there.”

She fled to the back, she said.

“I just went to one side and ran out running,” she said. “I didn’t know where to run to. I saw a friend and we got into her car.”

No motive has been determined but the attack bore the earmarks of an organized crime assault and Mr. CalderĂłn connected the disaster to the battle against drug crime. The crackdown he began, as well as infighting among the cartels, have left more than 35,000 people dead.

Casinos, growing in number across the country, have emerged lately as targets of extortion, violence and money laundering.

Rodrigo Medina, the governor of Nuevo Leon State, in an interview with the Milenio television network said no motive had been determined, and he would not comment on reports that the casino may have refused to pay protection money to a gang.

Many victims appeared to be women and the elderly, who often bet there.

Monterrey, once a peaceful city, , has been hit hard by the violence as at least two major criminal organizations battle for control. Bodies are regularly found hanging from overpasses, several people have been killed in bars and the American consulate there has moved the younger children of its workers from the city.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/27/world/americas/27mexico.html
 
Eric Walton said:
If I move to Mexico in the next two years, where should I move to? What's the safest spot?

Queretaro!

Just don't go to Guerrero, Tamaulipas, Nuevo Leon, Chihuaha, Sonora, Sinaloa... basically, stay away from the states on the border with the USA.
 
I really hope all this violence makes our government reconsider the lax security we have in place along the border. We need big ass concrete walls with machine gun turretts every 30 feet.
 
Eric Walton said:
If I move to Mexico in the next two years, where should I move to? What's the safest spot?

The last two years I was living in Cuernavaca near to Mexico City is a pretty calm city. But right now I'm in my hometown (Juarez, Chihuahua) and I'm sick of all the violence in the north of my country, I'm sick of this stupid government who can't do anything in the right manner. I want my city, my state and my country as I remember it when I was a child.
 
truly101 said:
I really hope all this violence makes our government reconsider the lax security we have in place along the border. We need big ass concrete walls with machine gun turretts every 30 feet.
thats the last fucking thing we need.
 
truly101 said:
I really hope all this violence makes our government reconsider the lax security we have in place along the border. We need big ass concrete walls with machine gun turretts every 30 feet.

Just stop buying drugs and stop selling weapons to the drug cartels. That would be more helpful than your idea.

Without weapons and income, our Army could finish most of them.
 
Mexico is a beautiful country and the common people are the nicest and greatest people ever. However, the country has gone to shit thanks to corrupt politicians and cops, useless presidents, and those goddamn piece of shit drug cartels.

Vicente Fox was right in one thing however. He was being interviewed by an American news channel, I think it was Fox News, and the interviewer asked Fox what he was planning to do with the drug cartels and why he couldn't contain them. He said "Well, you're the ones that buy their drugs."
 
maxxpower said:
Mexico is a beautiful country and the common people are the nicest and greatest people ever. However, the country has gone to shit thanks to corrupt politicians and cops, useless presidents, and those goddamn piece of shit drug cartels.

Vicente Fox was right in one thing however. He was being interviewed by an American news channel, I think it was Fox News, and the interviewer asked Fox what he was planning to do with the drug cartels and why he couldn't contain them. He said "Well, you're the ones that buy their drugs."

Our currently President is not useless... he is the best we have had in decades.
 
Fernando Rocker said:
Just stop buying drugs and stop selling weapons to the drug cartels. That would be more helpful than your idea.

Without weapons and income, our Army could finish most of them.

While you can definitely place blame on the US and its policies for the inception of this problem, I don't think this is a viable solution. The drug cartels are filthy rich, powerful, and have a taste for blood and money. If drugs were legalized, they'd find another business. They're in too deep now to just give up. They have enough money to keep fighting for a while. The problem has grown in scope beyond its origins.
 
Emerson said:
While you can definitely place blame on the US and its policies for the inception of this problem, I don't think this is a viable solution. The drug cartels are filthy rich, powerful, and have a taste for blood and money. If drugs were legalized, they'd find another business. They're in too deep now to just give up. They have enough money to keep fighting for a while. The problem has grown in scope beyond its origins.

True, but selling drugs to the USA is still their biggest source of income, by far.
 
Emerson said:
While you can definitely place blame on the US and its policies for the inception of this problem, I don't think this is a viable solution. The drug cartels are filthy rich, powerful, and have a taste for blood and money. If drugs were legalized, they'd find another business. They're in too deep now to just give up. They have enough money to keep fighting for a while. The problem has grown in scope beyond its origins.
so fucking let them find a another business. I rather that happen and stop pissing away billions of dollars a year on a bullshit drug war. At least then police would have more man power and funding to crub other ventures. They will always find away to make money you won't ever stop them. You can however restrict and try to control the amount of damage done by them.
 
Zeke said:
so fucking let them find a another business. I rather that happen and stop pissing away billions of dollars a year on a bullshit drug war. At least then police would have more man power and funding to crub other ventures. They will always find away to make money you won't ever stop them. You can however restrict and try to control the amount of damage done by them.

I agree. I think the war on drugs is stupid, and I actually have a strong personal dislike of drugs. But a lot of people act like the USA could directly end this cartel situation right now by simply legalizing drugs. That's really not the case, and definitely not a viable solution.
 
Fernando Rocker said:
Just stop buying drugs and stop selling weapons to the drug cartels. That would be more helpful than your idea.

Without weapons and income, our Army could finish most of them.

Nobody enforces any of the laws that would curtail any of those things. The drug war is useless but its political dynamite so no politician will endorse such a change in drug laws unless something really drastic happens. I'd love for there to be more regulations on arms dealing but thats as likely to happen as drug legalization.

To be fair, I believe Mexico's border with central america is heavily armed, it doesn't do a lot of good.

Nothing is going to happen on the US front until the cartels wipe out a small South Texas town, then outrage
 
Mexico is a strange place. I think they are having a civil war right now, but most people are too scared to do anything, but they want the US to come in and fight. People within the country are going to have to band together and start doing something significant like they did in Egypt and Libya if they want the US to help. Bush sending troops to Iraq the way he did pretty much killed the chance of US taking a similar type of action in regards to mexico. The US doesn't want to go in, fight the whole battle and then have to stay around. Iraq was a huge mistake that no one wants to repeat.
 
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