BattleMonkey
Member
It's not good idea for a chopper pilot to state who he has on board or picking up, enemy would know where to exactly target or go after then if he was announcing that he had the boss or getting the boss.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
MGS V Story question (MAJOR spoilers)
- Thread starter Nugg
- Start date
this thread gets even more ridicules, there is a reason why some LZs are far away from bases or near bases without any AA guns or radar.
I went into the game without knowing about the Moby Dick references.
What's funny is, during character creation, I randomly named my guy Ismael. So when the game referred to me as "Ishmael", I honestly thought the game voice captured a bunch of random names. It wasn't until much later in the game when I realized the Moby Dick connection, lol.
What's funny is, during character creation, I randomly named my guy Ismael. So when the game referred to me as "Ishmael", I honestly thought the game voice captured a bunch of random names. It wasn't until much later in the game when I realized the Moby Dick connection, lol.
The Moby Dick references, like the 1984 references, are an attempt at borrowing the thematic relevance those works had.
Snake being 'Ahab' has no relevance, not even in the scene where he is given the name. Heck, it's like Kojima even forgets that he was trying to draw those parallels after the prologue. It's a childish take. 'Missing arm, revenge, woooo fire whale'. What?
Then in lieu of likening Cipher's information control to 1984's Big Brother state there's a poster in the game's second chapter. 'Big Boss is watching YOU'. Ok?
It's nothing of worth.
Snake being 'Ahab' has no relevance, not even in the scene where he is given the name. Heck, it's like Kojima even forgets that he was trying to draw those parallels after the prologue. It's a childish take. 'Missing arm, revenge, woooo fire whale'. What?
Then in lieu of likening Cipher's information control to 1984's Big Brother state there's a poster in the game's second chapter. 'Big Boss is watching YOU'. Ok?
It's nothing of worth.
I found more 1984 references than moby dick's tbh.
The room 101 being the most noticeable,diamond dogs basically brainwashes every soldier you fultoned and force them to join your cause,that's why you can have XOF soldiers in your staff which shouldn't be possible story-wise.
Huey may be a lying psycho but he is probably the only 'sane' guy inside motherbase because he can't be braiwashed due to gene therapy like kaz said.
The room 101 being the most noticeable,diamond dogs basically brainwashes every soldier you fultoned and force them to join your cause,that's why you can have XOF soldiers in your staff which shouldn't be possible story-wise.
Huey may be a lying psycho but he is probably the only 'sane' guy inside motherbase because he can't be braiwashed due to gene therapy like kaz said.
Dick Justice
Banned
He drops to his knees. That's it.
Roni
Banned
Sane in that sense, maybe. But the guy is also looney in other departments...
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
IISANDERII
Member
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
It's touted as a revenge tale in the marketing, sure, but then the game spends the rest of the time drilling it into you that revenge is pointless and breeds more violence. So...
Diprosalic
Banned
it was written by a madman with zero writing talent. don't think to much about it.
PetriP-TNT
Member
The pilot can die in pretty much every mission if you screw around too much
So... It's exactly like Mobu Dick then?
Both are cautionary tales in that regard. MGSV obviously lacks the poignancy on Melville but still, the themes are there.
ZeroMaverick
Member
I could explain at least some of it to you, but it would essentially be me writing an essay. If you really, really want to understand the Moby Dick references in MGSV, read Chapter Five of Robert L. Caserio's Plot, Story, and the Novel. Basically, it boils down to this. In Moby Dick, Ahab is a representation of a belief in plot, destiny and action. He believes that he will catch the whale as long as he endeavors to do so, as long as he has the will. In relation to society at the time, Ahab's view is a misleading view of the myth of self-power. This is why, in MGSV, Ahab is a cipher for the player, an analogous representation of player expectation of plot, action, and narrative destiny. Meanwhile, in Moby Dick, Ishmael represents the Divine Inert; a yielding to passivity and flexibility. In MGS V, the plot is essentially pointless. Everything you do as Ahab is action that eventually leads nowhere; the plot does very little to the actual "canon" of Metal Gear, and the revenge that you are tasked with is ultimately a ruse (lol).
Maybe I'm not making sense because I'm trying to rush through this, but I think this is what Kojima was trying to communicate. In the same way Melville was trying to move novels from Victorian to something more modern (which he essentially achieved), Kojima was trying to move video game narratives into something different, something that can be multifaceted and considered "literary." This is why the actual story of the game is so disappointing. We as Ahab have certain narrative expectations that we've been taught to expect. MGS 1-4, The Last of Us, any other video game with a "great" narrative function very similarly in terms of narrative arc. If we take MGSV at face value and assume Kojima was able to deliver the story he intended (debatable considering Konami shit-fest), then I believe this is what he was trying to do, and this is why the story features Moby Dick references so blatantly. Wether or not he succeeded in doing this is subjective and won't really be answerable until years from now when we see where video game narratives have gone.
Maybe I'm not making sense because I'm trying to rush through this, but I think this is what Kojima was trying to communicate. In the same way Melville was trying to move novels from Victorian to something more modern (which he essentially achieved), Kojima was trying to move video game narratives into something different, something that can be multifaceted and considered "literary." This is why the actual story of the game is so disappointing. We as Ahab have certain narrative expectations that we've been taught to expect. MGS 1-4, The Last of Us, any other video game with a "great" narrative function very similarly in terms of narrative arc. If we take MGSV at face value and assume Kojima was able to deliver the story he intended (debatable considering Konami shit-fest), then I believe this is what he was trying to do, and this is why the story features Moby Dick references so blatantly. Wether or not he succeeded in doing this is subjective and won't really be answerable until years from now when we see where video game narratives have gone.
Yeah but it's not the same as dying during a cutscene in a main story mission,that's canon.
Roni
Banned
This was seriously inspired, I'll look that chapter up. Thanks.
ZeroMaverick
Member
I think this link should work. It starts on page 43. Good luck. It's a tough read, and I had to have a professor explain it to me.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bw0n8DG-glu5UzhhSG9ONjdVUTQ/view
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
You say half-assed like it's a fact. There are actually a lot more literary references in the game, both subtle and overt.
AdmiralSnackbar
Member
Why is this just now an issue?
MGS1 - Hal and Dave -2001
MGS2 - Jack and Rose - Titanic
MGS3 - Adam(ska) Eva Snake - the Bible
MGS4 - Beauty and the Beast
These things have always been filled with references and 5 is actually the most well thought out of any of them.
MGS1 - Hal and Dave -2001
MGS2 - Jack and Rose - Titanic
MGS3 - Adam(ska) Eva Snake - the Bible
MGS4 - Beauty and the Beast
These things have always been filled with references and 5 is actually the most well thought out of any of them.
Because the earlier ones were just straight up references. Kojimi tried to tie the entire Moby Dick revenge theme into the narrative of TPP.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Can you elaborate?
When is "the rest of the time"? The futility of vengeance is brought up only in off-hand comments in the tapes. Another issue with the game's storytelling.
The game is supposed to be a revenge tale. Big Boss and Venom Snake represent mirrored versions of Ahab and Ishmael. The ludicrous whale, the whaling ship, the chopper etc. AdmiralSnackbar is right, and another such example exists in MGSV when Ocelot brings up Pinnochio by comparing Venom Snake to Gepetto hiding in the "whale" (hospital). This is a different sort of reference to the Moby Dick allusions, since the latter is intricate to the plot and the game's themes.
The demon shit is even more shoehorned.
What's there to elaborate that hasn't already been said in this thread?
The other games just drop a few names here and there to reference (mostly) pop cultre without any super deep meaning behind it.
TPP not only borrows the names (which would be in line with the other titles, if Kojimi kept it at that), but the game's plot and characters can't even shut up about revenge for a minute.
Mr. Crow
Member
Was it a real whale that Psycho Mantis controlled or just an illusion?Well there is a fire whale
Real, stupidly. Like how Volgin's fire is somehow real. These things would have been better kept as Venom's hallucinations being manipulated by Mantis.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
The theme of the game is partially about the futility of revenge/cycle of violence and it references elements of the granddaddy of revenge tales. Shocking.
The theme of revenge is not exclusive to Moby Dick nor is it the only point that the game is making. Consider the fact that the Ahabs of both tales have completely different relationships with revenge and you'll notice that the two stories approach it very differently....
Rest of the time being: at nearly every opportunity.
In Chapter 1, sure, it's mostly tapes and guard conversations, but I thought that was kind of the point; it subtly undermines the rip roaring tale of revenge. Chapter 2 deals with it more specifically, subverting what happened in Chapter 1. There are many examples of this. The main one I can think of off the top of my head would be that, even though the Scooby Gang got their revenge on Skullface, his presence continues to be felt more strongly than ever, completely negating said revenge.
Nearly every character's arc deals with revenge in one way or another, whether specifically, by it's absence, or by it's affect on them.
It is a revenge tale. It isn't a straight one, I don't think, nor is it only that. A major theme of the game is to highlight that revenge begets revenge. The references to Moby Dick are just that though, references.
You know what else is a major theme? The power of language. So I don't think it is coincidence that this is the first MGS to overtly reference literature (at all really, at least since the oblique allusions in MGS2 to the New York Trilogy and the smattering of Bible stuff in MGS3/4). It references far more than just Moby Dick too: Lord of the Flies, 1984, Naked Lunch, The Double etc. They're not little references or themes that he poaches either. They play large parts in their own ways.
There is more going on in the game's themes/narrative than most people give it credit for. A lot of the time it doesn't quite work, sometimes it works really well. The major issue is in how it is told, but even that ties in with another of the game's big themes: Player Agency. Frankly, I'm glad he had ambitious aims and took the risks he did rather than churn out the same old shit.
Roni
Banned
I believe it was a real mass of fire in the shape of a whale, but I don't think it was an actual whale. There was another accident similar to this one when Snake woke up and Mantis was being transported that is broadcasted on the radio one of the nights Venom is awake. An aircraft engulf by flames in midair.
The theme of the game is partially about the futility of revenge/cycle of violence and it references elements of the granddaddy of revenge tales. Shocking.
The theme of revenge is not exclusive to Moby Dick nor is it the only point that the game is making. Consider the fact that the Ahabs of both tales have completely different relationships with revenge and you'll notice that the two stories approach it very differently....
Well, then Kojima shouldn't have built his entire narrative around references to one of the most famous revenge tales. And the later shift in theme doesn't magically eradicate the entire first chapter.
I know that subtlety is something foreign to Kojima, but this takes it to a completely new level.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Sorry, I don't think I understand.
Why shouldn't he have made those references and I n what way is the narrative "built" around Moby Dick references?
I wouldn't say the theme "shifted". There were multiple ones at play from the start. I wouldn't want it to eradicate the first chapter, that would be like leading a joke with the punchline rather than the set-up.
I don't think that's fair. I think what MGS2 did was quite subtle. It took years for the fanbase to click on to it, no matter what anyone says.
AdmiralSnackbar
Member
Which reminds me..
There was this whole other revenge story going on that never gets explained until after the fact. Initially I figured that man of fire was just some "phantom" mantis was doing that symbolized revenge coming back for Big Boss or something.
Nope, it was actually Volgin. He survived the ending of MGS3 in some kind of coma and the Russians experimented for years and made zombie Volgin with fire powers.
You'd think they'd lose interest within the 20 year period separating the games.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
What will he think of next, a dude firing bees from his mouth?! Absurd.
Truckondo2.0
Member
Chapter 3 is the white whale.
Haunted
Member
whoosh
No, he churned out precisely the same wafer-thin trollop that he did with Peace Walker's theme of peace. Infantile and lacking any sort of substance whatsoever. Likewise with MGS4's "sense" nonsense.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, you're right. My two year old is always harping on about the cyclical nature of revenge, player agency, and cultural imperialism.
You're really stretching those arguments thin trying to defend hack writing. Just because ideas and concepts are presented doesn't mean they're presented well.
I've yet to come to grips with the complaints about the writing and story in MGSV. I keep asking. The writing is bad?
Did you guys play the first four metal gear ames? The writing was always bad and laughable. Did everyone suddenly jump from reading The Hardy Boys to The Sound and the Fury between games?
KOMANI
KOMANI
The earlier games never took themselves TOO seriously. Their messages were more important than the story themselves.I've yet to come to grips with the complaints about the writing and story in MGSV. I keep asking. The writing is bad?
Did you guys play the first four metal gear ames? The writing was always bad and laughable. Did everyone suddenly jump from reading The Hardy Boys to The Sound and the Fury between games?
Here, in MGSV, the message isn't very strong, the story isn't strong, and it takes itself too serious. It worked for Ground Zeroes because of how small it was, and it didn't have a meta-message.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
It was a joke. Lighten up.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
I don't agree. MGS has always taken itself the MOST seriously. It's been irreverent and wacky and tonally all over the place, but that doesn't mean it didn't take itself seriously. You don't have hours worth of cutscenes and codec calls in your game if you don't take it too seriously. MGS4, in particular, was guilty of taking the canon WAY too seriously. Like 90% of that game was spent desperately trying to make sense of a post-MGS2 universe, which Kojima never even intended to exist after MGS2 (recall him saying that would be his last MGS even then).
By contrast, MGS5 wonderfully divests itself of almost all interest of adhering to a canon that jumped the shark back at MGS2 anyway. I'm glad it doesn't spend hours painstakingly connecting all the dots so "fans" can go "I RECOGNIZE THIS FROM OTHER GAMES OMG".
MGSV is guilty of this too. Mantis, Liquid, Volgin, etc. It's not much different from MGS4.
indeed, some really bad fuckin posts in here just parroting tired memes like 'lol kojima subtlety' and 'half assed references'
IdreamofHIME
Member
The truth about what happened to chapter 3:
Konami:
Kojima:
Konami:
Konami:
Kojima:
Konami:
KOMANI
KOMANI
A game where you look at posters of models and jack off, isn't a game that takes itself seriously. Mgs4 was ignoring the message of MGS2, and instead tried to focus on making sense of its canon. But it too, didn't take itself seriously when you have Meryl and Johnny getting married, and dancing B&B's that you're allowed to photo shoot. The only problem with MGS4 was it was made just to be made, not because there was a deeper meaning behind it. It's the only game to "connect" the dots. The ones before it stand on there own. Even V can't stand on its own; it needs the other games for you to take anything away from its story.
V does carry the baggage with cannon, referencing PW, Snake Eater, MG, MG 2, and MGS. The thing is it's all in the tapes. And because it's all in the tapes, you're left with a paper thin story. That's why it's accessible to newcomers... Because the real meat is in its tapes, and only a fan will listen to the tapes and understand.
Mission 43 isn't a tear jerker without the PW music. Strangelove's tape is useless without knowing of/playing PW, and Paz's tapes don't make sense without GZ or Peacewalker. Hell, you don't understand the hatred from Eli, unless you know MGS.